Macho Married Men

[Tropical Wilds]

Just to be clear, I don't joke like that about men...

 

[ImperialPhantom]

Just to be clear, I don't joke like that about men...

You might not but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

 

[mkgal1]

Oftentimes the biggest tough talkers are the dudes who are the most whipped - and I'm talking shared-Facebook-accounts levels of whipped. But all in all I would chalk it up to nothing more than a case of "guy jokes". Women joke like this too.

Sure......*some* women do joke like this this as well; however......it's not something that defines women as something positive like it does for men (generally speaking....."a manly man"....or "macho man" ......or, worse yet, a "real man".) Sometimes these jokes are even part of "just being a guy"---according to some people.

Why can't traits like having integrity in their relationships and work ethics be considered those of a "real man"? IOW......why are men and women okay with (and often perpetuating it further) this generalized stereotype that's so unbecoming?

 

[Inkachu]

I think, if you polled all the men and women in this forum, you'd find that the crass jokes are largely on the men's side. Not because women are superior or any such nonsense, but because men are more about impressing other men and maintaining an appearance of control and strength. Getting all dewy-eyed and emotional and gushing about your wife is not exactly conducive to fist-bumps when mingling with the guys. Men like to "maintain a status" when they socialize; women aren't so much like that, we're more about connecting and communicating. Hopefully it's a different story among Christian men, at least.

As a woman, and having worked around large groups of women (both Christian and unbelievers) for the past 20 years, I can say that the ladies do not sit around berating their husbands or making inappropriate comments about cheating on them or not wanting to be home with them, or what-have-you. Have I EVER heard that sort of thing? Yes, but very, very rarely. As in, I couldn't tell you the last time I heard something like that.

 

[mkgal1]

TBH.......I think I've been seeing this false stereotype *more* in Christian circles. Have you all heard of this: Church for Men | calling the church back to men

Here’s a brief summary to whet your appetite:
1. A Manly Pastor. Men don’t like macho or power-hungry pastors, but a pastor who projects a healthy masculinity will draw men. This is because men see their churches through their pastor. If a man respects his pastor, then he likes his church. If a man doesn’t respect his pastor, he won’t like his church. Go ahead, ask a man about his church. He won’t talk about the ministries, or the facilities, or the programs; he’ll talk about the pastor.
- See more at: Ten Ways to Man Up Your Church

Of course.....to find out what this "manly pastor" actually looks like (what traits make him so).....you have to purchase the DVD. It's interesting to me that there's a distinction made between "manly" and "macho" there.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

Ha. Who knew I would set off a defensiveness avalanche with the ladies? Let me make it perfectly clear: if you don't joke dirty, that does not mean it doesn't happen ever. Don't get it twisted. This charade of "clean woman with no dirty thoughts or words" is tiring. You may be this, but it's an extension of church misogyny that this uber sterile standard is so pervasive.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

I think, if you polled all the men and women in this forum, you'd find that the crass jokes are largely on the men's side. Not because women are superior or any such nonsense, but because men are more about impressing other men and maintaining an appearance of control and strength. Getting all dewy-eyed and emotional and gushing about your wife is not exactly conducive to fist-bumps when mingling with the guys. Men like to "maintain a status" when they socialize; women aren't so much like that, we're more about connecting and communicating. Hopefully it's a different story among Christian men, at least.

As a woman, and having worked around large groups of women (both Christian and unbelievers) for the past 20 years, I can say that the ladies do not sit around berating their husbands or making inappropriate comments about cheating on them or not wanting to be home with them, or what-have-you. Have I EVER heard that sort of thing? Yes, but very, very rarely. As in, I couldn't tell you the last time I heard something like that.

Yeah because women are more secretive about it. They will do it when men or when "clean" women aren't around. Or when the alcohol begins talking. And as far as sex talk goes, women are both dirtier and more detailed than men are.

 

[mkgal1]

"Avalanche of defensiveness"? I don't think so.....I just don't agree that it's the same thing (or that it's even a correct assessment.)

There is no female version of the "manly man" or "macho man" that gets accolades and pats on the back for things that are divisive in marriage (or even damaging to one's self).

Besides the article on Joe Ehrmann.....this is another video that's been brought up several times when this topic comes up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqX34V5UmoQ

I think this is more in line with what the OP is bringing up. I can't think of a female version of this (something that makes genuine relationships and honesty a vice or something to not have anything to do with----lest you not be what you're "supposed to be").

 

[seeingeyes]

Oh, women are definitely guilty of this, too. Not in a "macho" way, but certainly under the guise of communicating and bonding.

If I had a nickel for every time a woman I hardly knew had asked me to pray very specifically for some awful thing about her husband, I wouldn't be on a five year old lap top right now.

(I haven't ever seen that from the women is this thread, though, to be clear.)

 

[mkgal1]

My point is that isn't looked at as "how a woman is *supposed* to be".....like what that video describes most boys are up against as they try to forge their way into maturity (and it is still in adulthood, as the OP brings up).

IOW.....it's not about blame....or a matter of women being more virtuous than men......it's a cultural thing that (IMO) really needs to stop (the false concepts of masculinity).

 

[mkgal1]

This is another example of what my point is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--8CEYIAiEM

 

[mkgal1]

Ha. Who knew I would set off a defensiveness avalanche with the ladies? Let me make it perfectly clear: if you don't joke dirty, that does not mean it doesn't happen ever. Don't get it twisted. This charade of "clean woman with no dirty thoughts or words" is tiring. You may be this, but it's an extension of church misogyny that this uber sterile standard is so pervasive.

Why is it so common for this discussion about men to eventually include women, anyways (with the rebuttal of, "they do it toooooo")? To me.......it doesn't seem necessary or helpful to the discussion to confuse the issue by adding all that.

I guess my big question is......why doesn't offend most guys to have these character traits applied to them as inherent traits ("he's just being a guy")? It does seem more typical for the response, instead, to be "women do that, too" (which really seems like a deflection).

 

[Hetta]

Yeah because women are more secretive about it. They will do it when men or when "clean" women aren't around. Or when the alcohol begins talking. And as far as sex talk goes, women are both dirtier and more detailed than men are.

Which women are these? I loathe dirty jokes and I have never, ever discussed details of sex with other women. I'm not a prude, there are just boundaries in life, and my sex life with my husband has a major boundary alllll the way around it. That's not to say that I don't ever complain about my dh, because I have been known to whine to my close friends every now and then - but I don't do it where it is public, like here on CF. The laughable thing is, if you were able to see the women's forum - which I know you can't - there are no threads about sex that I can recall ever seeing. Is that true of the men's forum? There is certainly no getting down and dirty revealing everything.

Also, if women are so secretive about these stories they tell - and don't do it when men and "clean" women are around - how do you know it happens? It can't have been said in your hearing because you're a man, so either you know "dirty" women who tell you what they discuss, or you're just guessing. Either way, these women must be a tiny minority if nobody here seems to have met any of them.

 

[seeingeyes]

Which women are these? I loathe dirty jokes and I have never, ever discussed details of sex with other women. I'm not a prude, there are just boundaries in life, and my sex life with my husband has a major boundary alllll the way around it. That's not to say that I don't ever complain about my dh, because I have been known to whine to my close friends every now and then - but I don't do it where it is public, like here on CF. The laughable thing is, if you were able to see the women's forum - which I know you can't - there are no threads about sex that I can recall ever seeing. Is that true of the men's forum? There is certainly no getting down and dirty revealing everything.

Also, if women are so secretive about these stories they tell - and don't do it when men and "clean" women are around - how do you know it happens? It can't have been said in your hearing because you're a man, so either you know "dirty" women who tell you what they discuss, or you're just guessing. Either way, these women must be a tiny minority if nobody here seems to have met any of them.

:starts 15 "dirty" threads in the women's forum:

 

[Hetta]

:starts 15 "dirty" threads in the women's forum:

And then I happened to go in there and see a thread that was recently transferred over. LOL.

 

[seeingeyes]

And then I happened to go in there and see a thread that was recently transferred over. LOL.

Shhhhh!

 

[seeingeyes]

To be fair, I've heard women get pretty darn detailed, nasty-wise. Moreso from single women, but I think it's a question of personality (same as with men).

 

[Niffer]

It depends. I have limits, and I've definitely been in that situation where a woman starts talking details about her sex life and I'm sitting there thinking: "I don't even know your last name..."

That being said, I've been with a group of girls that were very detailed and crude, and I also found myself in the odd situation of being out with 7 other men (including my hubs) at a pub and found the conversation pretty crude too.
I think it's pretty equal - I'll talk sex with my girlfriends, but never in a degrading or a way that would embarrass my husband.
*shrug*

 

[Inkachu]

Ha. Who knew I would set off a defensiveness avalanche with the ladies? Let me make it perfectly clear: if you don't joke dirty, that does not mean it doesn't happen ever. Don't get it twisted. This charade of "clean woman with no dirty thoughts or words" is tiring. You may be this, but it's an extension of church misogyny that this uber sterile standard is so pervasive.

Uh... who ever said anything remotely like this? "Clean woman with no dirty thoughts"? "Uber sterile standard"? ... huh?? LOL

 

[Inkachu]

I still haven't seen anyone say that women DON'T do this (crude joking), ever, at all, nowhere, never, etc, etc, etc. What has been said is that it's less common among women and not typically included in the expectation of what makes a woman "womanly". By contrast, crude joking is expected among men (especially non-Christians) as part of being "one of the guys". Are there exceptions? I'm sure there are. That doesn't lessen the truth that it's more common and more expected to occur among men.