MacArthur-ism

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I don't think that these people were genuine believers. The verse says that they would not confess Christ. It also states that they loved the approval of man above of the approval of God. Now does that really characterize someone who has been born from above?

What is sounds like is cheap grace and easy believism.

Afterall, all one has to do is answer and altar call and say a sinner's prayer and

VIOLA......fire insurance is purchased.

 

[nwmsugrad]

I don't think that these people were genuine believers. The verse says that they would not confess Christ. It also states that they loved the approval of man above of the approval of God. Now does that really characterize someone who has been born from above?

You have to outright reject a lot of Scripture to affirm such a statement. The gospel of John makes it clear that everyone who believes has eternal life without exception. The purpose of the entire book is to explain that fact so that the reader may also believe and know with absolute certainty (100%) that they are eternally secure.

John 20:30-31 (NASB95)
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Starting with John 1:12 “as many as received him.” Not as many as received him and confessed Him as Lord. John 3:16 “that whosoever”, John 3:18 “He who believes”, 4:13 “Everyone who drinks”, 5:24 “He who hears My word, and believes”, 6:35 “he who believes” 6:47 “Truly, truly I say to you, He who believes has eternal life.”, 20:31 “but these thing have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

All faith in Christ alone justifies the sinner and saves from hell. Everyone who believes in Christ is saved. I see no exception clauses in the John. Faith (pistis in Greek) is simply the noun form of the word believe (pisteuo) faith = belief in English.

Lets take a closer look at the passage in question.

John 12:37-43 (NASB95)
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

What is the meaning of the phrase “they were not believing in Him.” in verse 37?

I have the same questions about the word believe as used in verses 39 and the context of verse 40; are these salvific or non-salvific uses?

What is the meaning of “Nevertheless many” in verse 42” there is a definite contrast here is there not? Who are these many rulers being compared to? Is meaning of the word believe in verse 42 and the type of belief being spoken of the same or different than the contrasted non-belief in verses 37, 38, 39?
In general isn't the phrase "believing in Him" used in a soteriological sense in John's Gospel? (ex 1:12, 3:16, 3:18, 6:47) What is different about chapter 12 that would cause us to abandon this established meaning?

 

[nwmsugrad]

Afterall, all one has to do is answer and altar call and say a sinner's prayer and

Saying a prayer has never saved anyone, but everyone who simply believes in Christ alone for salvation is eternally secure. Grace is not cheap its better than that an absolutely free for the recipient. It is rather offensive to call it cheap since although it costs the believer absolutely nothing it cost God His only Son.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You have to outright reject a lot of Scripture to affirm such a statement. The gospel of John makes it clear that everyone who believes has eternal life without exception.

What does it mean to "believe" is the question.

It's not a mere intellectual assent that the gospel is true.

It's not knowing of Christ.

It's not saying a sinner's prayer one day and then living as you please.

What does it mean "to believe" to you?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Saying a prayer has never saved anyone, but everyone who simply believes in Christ alone for salvation is eternally secure. Grace is not cheap its better than that an absolutely free for the recipient. It is rather offensive to call it cheap since although it costs the believer absolutely nothing it cost God His only Son.

What I mean by "cheap grace" is that the sinner does not have to give up anything.

Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me"

The Jews hearing that knew what it mean. They knew that following Christ in this life would come at a heavy price in the physical life, like, being crucified to death.

Jesus said to count the costs, but he also said that those who lose their lives on His account, would gain it.

Salvation is free, but it costs us our lives....our old lives of sin and corruption, as slaves of sin, to be slaves of Christ.(Romans 6)

 

[Beoga]

You have to outright reject a lot of Scripture to affirm such a statement. The gospel of John makes it clear that everyone who believes has eternal life without exception. The purpose of the entire book is to explain that fact so that the reader may also believe and know with absolute certainty (100%) that they are eternally secure.

What is the nature of this belief? Is it mere intellectual assent (as Augustine already asked)? Or is their more? Is the belief active? Does it include repentance and submitting ones life to Christ? Are the demons saved because they believe?

Starting with John 1:12 “as many as received him.” Not as many as received him and confessed Him as Lord.

Neither does it say confess Him as savior, or friend, or God or anything. If we take your arguement, all one has to do is agree that at some time some where, there was some guy name Jesus. Whether he be in Mexico, or the Middle East, it does not matter. Belief in this case becomes void of any meaning.

John 3:16 “that whosoever”, John 3:18 “He who believes”, 4:13 “Everyone who drinks”, 5:24 “He who hears My word, and believes”, 6:35 “he who believes” 6:47 “Truly, truly I say to you, He who believes has eternal life.”, 20:31 “but these thing have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

All faith in Christ alone justifies the sinner and saves from hell. Everyone who believes in Christ is saved. I see no exception clauses in the John. Faith (pistis in Greek) is simply the noun form of the word believe (pisteuo) faith = belief in English.

All faith in Christ alone justifies? So the demons believe, are they justified?

Lets take a closer look at the passage in question.

What is the meaning of the phrase “they were not believing in Him.” in verse 37?

I have the same questions about the word believe as used in verses 39 and the context of verse 40; are these salvific or non-salvific uses?

What is the meaning of “Nevertheless many” in verse 42” there is a definite contrast here is there not? Who are these many rulers being compared to? Is meaning of the word believe in verse 42 and the type of belief being spoken of the same or different than the contrasted non-belief in verses 37, 38, 39?
In general isn't the phrase "believing in Him" used in a soteriological sense in John's Gospel? (ex 1:12, 3:16, 3:18, 6:47) What is different about chapter 12 that would cause us to abandon this established meaning?

I think I already explained why I believe that those that John said believed but that didn't confess Christ before man were not genuine believers.

 

[holdon]

Are the demons saved because they believe?



All faith in Christ alone justifies? So the demons believe, are they justified?

When James talks about demons believing he wants to demonstrate that their faith is so real, that they tremble. Obviously they are scared.

That has nothing to do with saving and justifying faith. We humans can be, actually will be, saved and justified, based on our faith. For demons there is no such hope: the truth they believe, makes them tremble.

 

[nwmsugrad]

Does it include repentance and submitting ones life to Christ?

If repentance or submission or confession was required to receive eternal life why did John leave this important fact out of his book whose sole purpose was to explain the plan of salvation (John 20:30-31)? We don’t even find the word repentance mentioned in John why did he leave it out if it is indeed necessary?

All faith in Christ alone justifies? So the demons believe, are they justified?

As Holdon as accurately pointed out your taking James 2:19 out of context and drawing conclusions the text does not support.

James 2:19 (NASB95)
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

The text does not say that demons believe in Christ as their redeemer and shudder. It says the believe in monotheism that does not save anyone. Holdon makes a good observation by pointing out that the demons do not have any hope. Even if they “really” had faith alone in Christ alone this would do them no good since it would be misplaced faith since the gospel does not apply to demons (See Hebrews 2:16). The topic of James chapter 2 is not soteriological. It is written to believers who have useless faith in order to encourage them to put their faith into practice so that they would be saved from their Fathers disciplining hand.
Holdon is also correct when he points out that the demons belief in monotheism is real. A lot of people have real belief in monotheism it doesn’t save them. Every Mormon and JW I have ever met affirms it. Are they saved?


If you are going to persuade me of your view your going to have to deal with my questions since they are road blocks that are preventing me from accepting your view.

What is the meaning of the phrase “they were not believing in Him.” in verse 37?

I have the same questions about the word believe as used in verses 39 and the context of verse 40; are these salvific or non-salvific uses?

What is the meaning of “Nevertheless many” in verse 42” there is a definite contrast here is there not?

Who are these many rulers being compared to? Is meaning of the word believe in verse 42 and the type of belief being spoken of the same or different than the contrasted non-belief in verses 37, 38, 39?

In general isn't the phrase "believing in Him" used in a soteriological sense in John's Gospel? (ex 1:12, 3:16, 3:18, 6:47) What is different about chapter 12 that would cause us to abandon this established meaning?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

If repentance or submission or confession was required to receive eternal life why did John leave this important fact out of his book whose sole purpose was to explain the plan of salvation (John 20:30-31)? We don’t even find the word repentance mentioned in John why did he leave it out if it is indeed necessary?

Repentance, submission and confession are all mentioned as requirements of genuine faith elsewhere. It is a fallacy to think that because a particular aspect is not mentioned in one book, whereas it is mentioned in another or several books as is the case here, that it is disqualified due to not being redundant.

As Holdon as accurately pointed out your taking James 2:19 out of context and drawing conclusions the text does not support.

No, LA was not taking the James passage out of context. The context of this discussion is "belief", and what constitutes genuine belief.

Don't you know that the demons know/believe Jesus is Messiah/God?

The context is what it means to "believe".

I've asked you for your definition of what it means to "believe". Would you be kind enough to give it?

Every Mormon and JW I have ever met affirms it. Are they saved?

I don't know what kind of JWs and Mormons you know, but the many I know and witness to, do not affirm monotheism, quite the opposite.

One of the tenets of JWs is that Jesus was a lessor god, as a matter of fact in the JW bible, the New World Translation, they have changed John 1:1 to read, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word was a god."

Same with Mormons, they hold to a plurality of gods, and that a Mormon can actually become a god themselves.

But again, what constitutes "belief" to you?


If you are going to persuade me of your view your going to have to deal with my questions since they are road blocks that are preventing me from accepting your view.


Also, I have to say that if you do not think repentance is neccessary for salvation as you seem to be saying, that is indeed very scary.

 

[JM]

Is there any such thing as an 'easy' faith, or Grace that's 'cheap?'

Not in dispensational theology. Haven't you ever run into folks that say, 'why share the Gospel if people are elect' or 'it's easy believe-ims to think people are elect?' I know I have and we both know how silly it sounds when people say such things.

 

[nwmsugrad]

My definition of belief is very easy to define. The spiritual definition of belief is the same as the English definition that we use in our everyday lives. Someone believes something once they have been persuaded that it is true. Although infinitely more important, my belief that the earth is round is not cognitively any different than my belief that the gospel is true. It does not take “special” faith to become a believer. All faith saves as Johns gospel makes perfectly clear. It’s the object of our faith that is important not the nature of the faith itself.


What belief is not:

Don't you know that the demons know/believe Jesus is Messiah/God?

James 2:19 is talking about belief in monotheism. It is not talking about saving faith. It is written to Jewish believers shortly after the cross. (Probably 34-36 AD) Monotheism is one of the foundation doctrines Jews living at that time lost and saved alike. All of the lost Pharisees affirmed it. There is some debate in evangelical circles whether Old Testament believers even understood that the coming Messiah was actually God and not simply someone sent from God.

JW do belief in monotheism even though they deny Christ Deity. What they fail to do with Christ is why they will be spending eternity in hell. It is not because they belief there is more than one God. You do make a valid point about Mormons, I may used a faulty illustration. I usually use another but it may push the boundaries of the rules in this particular thread so I chose to use weaker one.

Let me try to reestablish my point. John MacArthur is convinced that Mother Teresa is lost based on interviewing her later in life at which time he concluded that she had never placed her trust solely in Christ but was instead relying partly on her works to save her. I have not reason to doubt his analysis since everyone who believes their works play a role in salvation have not believed the gospel message and have instead bought into a false message that does not save. For the purpose of my illustration lets assume that MacArthur is correct and Mother Teresa is presently in hell.

I am sure that Mother Teresa believed that “God is one” the reason she is lost has nothing to do with that proper doctrine. Mother Teresa if lost is spending eternity separated from our Lord because she did not believe in Him.

Many theologians would agree with me that everyone that believes in Him has everlasting life which once acquired cannot be lost. Instead they try to complicate matters by saying that although that is true it is not possible to know if one has believed until he or she has enough good works to validate that belief. Such a position really turns the meaning of original Greek text of Scripture on its head. The Greek word that is translated as believe in John is pisteuo and its meaning is the same as its English counterpart. They know they believe all kinds of things are true until it comes to the gospel and them they redefine the word and are unsure what they believe. Cognitively believing the gospel is no different that believing any other fact. For example I believe the earth is round. One becomes a believer once they are persuaded that the gospel message is true. Notice in John 11:26 when Jesus asks Martha about her faith He actually asks her if she believes in a proposition (that the gospel is true).

John 11:25-27 (NKJV)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

We see the same definition of faith (the Greek word translated as faith is simply the noun form for the word believe so faith=belief) in Hebrews and Acts: being persuaded that a proposition is true.

Hebrews11:1 (NASB95)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Acts 28:23-24 (NASB95)
23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I will go to heaven when I die since I know that everyone who believes in Him is guaranteed eternal life and I understand that that everyone includes me. This fact has nothing to do with my future performance there is nothing I can do to change this great news. If I were to doubt this fact I would not be doubting myself, but would be doubting God and His word.

Do you know with absolute 100% certainty that you will go to heaven when you die?

Romans 11:29 (NASB95)
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Is there any such thing as an 'easy' faith, or Grace that's 'cheap?'

Not in dispensational theology. Haven't you ever run into folks that say, 'why share the Gospel if people are elect' or 'it's easy believe-ims to think people are elect?' I know I have and we both know how silly it sounds when people say such things.

It is silly when people say, "why share the Gospel if people are Elect". It is downright dumb and anti-Biblical.

For starters, the Elect are known by God, and not us.

God commanded that the Gospel be preached to every creature.

God ordained preaching of the Gospel to be the vehicle through which God uses the Elect to reach the Elect.

We don't know who the Elect are, God does, so we preach the Gospel to every creature.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

My definition of belief is very easy to define. The spiritual definition of belief is the same as the English definition that we use in our everyday lives. Someone believes something once they have been persuaded that it is true. Although infinitely more important, my belief that the earth is round is not cognitively any different than my belief that the gospel is true. It does not take “special” faith to become a believer. All faith saves as Johns gospel makes perfectly clear. It’s the object of our faith that is important not the nature of the faith itself.

What you are talking about there is intellectual assent, which God says will not suffice, for there will be those who agree, assent that the Gospel is true, that Jesus is the Son of God who attoned for sin and will still be cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 7;

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Not all "faith" saves as you have stated. James is clear that faith without works is dead, which is to say that some have a faith that is only in words spoken from their lips but not the heart. If one has genuine faith, they will also produce the works that God has prepared beforehand for them(Ephesians 2:10).

 

[nwmsugrad]

You seriously misunderstand Matt 7:21-23 these people do not believe the gospel instead they rely on their works to saved them which is why they are being condemed to hell. I can take a deeper look at this passage including the preceeding section which it used by many to support the notion that you either bear fruit or burn (hell). But before we go into that topic let me repeat my question.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist: I know with absolute 100% certainty that I am a believer. Do you share this same level of assurance? Are you 100% postitive that you are on of the elect?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You seriously misunderstand Matt 7:21-23 these people do not believe the gospel instead they rely on their works to saved them which is why they are being condemed to hell. I can take a deeper look at this passage including the preceeding section which it used by many to support the notion that you either bear fruit or burn (hell). But before we go into that topic let me repeat my question.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist: I know with absolute 100% certainty that I am a believer. Do you share this same level of assurance? Are you 100% postitive that you are on of the elect?

You missed the point. According to the definition you gave me, that all faith saves, that belief is an intellectual assent to the gospel, the passage from Matthew says there is more than that to "belief".

Genuine saving faith(ie-belief) is a total trust in the finished work of atonement by Christ in paying the entire debt one owes God for sin, and trusting that atonement to have reconciled the sinner back to God on a right basis.

 

[nwmsugrad]

Genuine saving faith (ie-belief) is a total trust in the finished work of atonement by Christ in paying the entire debt one owes God for sin, and trusting that atonement to have reconciled the sinner back to God on a right basis.

My view is that faith is a passive and does not have a volitional aspect (In the short-run). Volition does effect the evidence one is exposed to and the level that one considers that evidence so it does play a role. Many fine theologians who I have great respect for and give a crystal clear gospel presentation disagree with me on this point and subscribe to the 3 element view of faith. My pastor is one of these individuals. I do not wish to debate this particular point since I view it as a non-essential.

What is much more important is can one know what they believe. Can one be absolutely sure that the faith that they have is genuine saving faith and not simply intellectual assent? Although my pastor disagrees with me on this minor issue we are very much in agreement when it comes to absolute assurance of ones salvation. Can one know with absolute certainly that the faith they possess is real?

I repeat my question: ARE YOU 100% POSTITIVE THAT YOU ARE OF THE ELECT?

Can you do me the courtesy of answering it? I would like to discuss why I disagree with you concerning Matthew 7 but want to nail down your postion on this question first.

 

[JM]

It is silly when people say, "why share the Gospel if people are Elect". It is downright dumb and anti-Biblical.

For starters, the Elect are known by God, and not us.

God commanded that the Gospel be preached to every creature.

God ordained preaching of the Gospel to be the vehicle through which God uses the Elect to reach the Elect.

We don't know who the Elect are, God does, so we preach the Gospel to every creature.

I understand, I agree, I believe as you do on this issue of preaching the Gospel. The same can be used for eternal security of the believer.

For starters, believers are known by God and made righteous by Christ.

God commanded men to repent and believe, man does this because of the New Birth and they are new creatures in Christ.

God ordained the path we tread and is the arthur and finisher of our faith.

We do know, 'not I but Christ' is our salvation. This doesn't mean we are not willing to do God's will or we will to sin. Just as the faithful and loving mother takes care of her child without any knowledge of the laws of state, she does so out of love. Same with the child of God. Faith DOES produce works but the works aren't ours.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Augustine, we deny the freedom of the will to believe before the new birth, I just continue on and deny the will of man completely. For what is the will of man? Isn't the will of man, contrary to the will of God? Anytime a person seeks to do there will, the sinful nature adapts, this was what the law teaches us. When we look with faith upon Jesus our works will be faithful....and works will follow.

peace

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Volition does effect the evidence one is exposed to and the level that one considers that evidence so it does play a role.

Not according to 1 Corinthians 2;
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Or Romans 8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I repeat my question: ARE YOU 100% POSTITIVE THAT YOU ARE OF THE ELECT?

You can keep posting that, in even bigger, bolder fonts, and I am not going to respond because of the implication of you questioning my faith.

Sir, you are not in that position.

 

[nwmsugrad]

You can keep posting that, in even bigger, bolder fonts, and I am not going to respond because of the implication of you questioning my faith.

Sir, you are not in that position.

I am not questioning your faith. What I am inquiring about is your assessment of your faith. Are you in a postion to question your own faith and if so what is your verdict.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

We do know, 'not I but Christ' is our salvation. This doesn't mean we are not willing to do God's will or we will to sin.

After regeneration we are willing. As Augustine said, God gives us a new willer". Until then our willer is set on sin and nothing else. Even after regeneration we still have the flesh to deal with, and continue to sin, while not being a slave to sin. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

Just as the faithful and loving mother takes care of her child without any knowledge of the laws of state, she does so out of love. Same with the child of God. Faith DOES produce works but the works aren't ours.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

I agree, and you can add Eph. 2:10; "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Augustine, we deny the freedom of the will to believe before the new birth, I just continue on and deny the will of man completely. For what is the will of man? Isn't the will of man, contrary to the will of God? Anytime a person seeks to do there will, the sinful nature adapts, this was what the law teaches us. When we look with faith upon Jesus our works will be faithful....and works will follow.

peace

I tend to lean toward supralapsarianism myself.