Mac and PC - let's have a good dialogue!

[ArcticFox]

I would love to have a nice dialog about Macs and Windows-based PCs, with some additional talk about Linux too. But keep your gloves on please!

I started toying with computers when I was very young, at my grandpa's house on his old Packard Bell. Well, at the age of around 12 or 13 I got ahold of my first computer, which hapened to be a Packard Bell. My first exposure to the online world was CompuServe, back before the Internet was popular. As the years went by, I upgraded and moved from various different Windows-based machines. I had a Compaq and something else, as well as a machine that I put together myself. I used DOS, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, ME, 2000, and XP.

About a year and a half ago, I was living abroad before returning to my home in the US for a one-year stay (I'm back living abroad). I purchased an Apple laptop, the iBook G4, and had it waiting for me when I got back to the states. I LOVED it. All throughout my Windows career I had problem after problem. Whether it was the hardware and drivers, or Windows and reformatting, it was issue after issue. I was a bit of a computer geek, so I could handle them all, but they were always frustrating. Not to mention the virus issues and malware.

With my iBook, I NEVER had an issue. No hardware issues, no reformatting needed, no freezes or hangs. In a year and a half use of the iBook, I never had a system crash, not one. And, even though I've never used a single virus or malware protection software, I've never had a single virus or malicious program on my computer.

So, you can say I'm convinced - I've converted to Mac. I now own a MacBook with the new Intel Core Duo processors, and I feel an amazing new amount of freedom to explore. Although I had never felt a need to use Windows with my iBook G4, I enjoy toying with it as well as Linux installations on my new laptop, using virtual machines (Parallels Desktop).

What do you think? Is Mac overrated? Will the switch to Intel make Mac no different from the others? Will Windows Vista close the gap betwen the security issues between the two comepetitors, or do you think Macs (OS X) would be just as vulnerable if they were as popular?

 

[zoziw]

I own a G4 Mac Mini a G4 iBook a Compaq(HP) R4125CA and an HP Pavilion m7580n. I am not currently running linux, though have used Red Hat in the past.

Is Mac overrated?

If anything, I think it is finally getting the attention it deserves as a reasonable consumer alternative to Windows for the average computer user.

Will the switch to Intel make Mac no different from the others?

No. OS X, iLife, and style are what set Macs apart.

Will Windows Vista close the gap betwen the security issues between the two comepetitors, or do you think Macs (OS X) would be just as vulnerable if they were as popular?

I certainly hope that Vista turns out to be more secure than XP was when it was released.

What needs to be remembered about Mac security is that OS X is built on Unix which for over 20 years has been developed with networking in mind and is inherently more secure than Windows XP.

It isn't magic pixie dust lying around Cupertino or a lack of interest in attacking Macs. It is because Apple went with an established and secure OS as the underpinnings for OS X.

In saying that, I haven't had any security issues with XP for many years.

 

[pgp_protector]

Bhaa

If you want a real computer get an Amiga

 

[macrohard]

Hmmmm......

Windows vs Mac......

Cost wise, of course Windows will be cheaper.

Quality, that of course a plus for Apple.

When it comes to security and protection, Apple gets amother plus (although lately a few more problems for the Mac have cropped up)

When it comes to software, that is a mixed bag. (Art, video and music are awesome on a Mac, while Windows probably has the larger amount of software it supports, especially gaming)

But alas, I have decided not to get involved in all that.

I use Linux....

 

[smacksnox]

This should answer all your questions about a Mac people ---> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8323220898115952428&hl=en

 

[rdale]

I thought seriously about getting a new Mac Pro, went to their forums to see what bugs them with what's current... more than a few reported problems with overheating. In the end, I just built a very cool running (temps) Intel Core Duo processor system running RAID 5, fast video card, fast ram, 24" widescreen & 20" 4:3 lcds, yada, yada, yada... I'm tickled with the performance and will probably dual boot Vista with XP Pro for the next couple years.

If Apple would ever release their OS to the rest of the world, I'd run Leopard for sure. They want the lock on their hardware and OS, so they've locked me out for now... who knows that could change too. Admittedly, you do have to bolt down/tune/watch yourself with Windows... but atm, OSX/Leopard is not an option for me.

 

[zoziw]

This should answer all your questions about a Mac people ---> [URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8323220898115952428&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8323220898115952428&hl=en[/URL]

CD "tray"???

Dragging a program from a CD to the desktop creates a shortcut???

This guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[raphink]

I thought seriously about getting a new Mac Pro, went to their forums to see what bugs them with what's current... more than a few reported problems with overheating. In the end, I just built a very cool running (temps) Intel Core Duo processor system running RAID 5, fast video card, fast ram, 24" widescreen & 20" 4:3 lcds, yada, yada, yada... I'm tickled with the performance and will probably dual boot Vista with XP Pro for the next couple years.

If Apple would ever release their OS to the rest of the world, I'd run Leopard for sure. They want the lock on their hardware and OS, so they've locked me out for now... who knows that could change too. Admittedly, you do have to bolt down/tune/watch yourself with Windows... but atm, OSX/Leopard is not an option for me.

Ok... Mac vs. PC... The title itself is a bit confusing... What exactly are we talking about here?

Macintoshes are PCs (as in, Personal Computers). You could have said it wasn't if you restricted PCs to Intel-compatible machines... but they are Intel machines now.

Unlike zoziw, I think what has really set Apple apart in the past was their hardware. Macintoshes have had very good hardware from the beginning, using SCSI devices for example. This has changed a lot since, but Apple still releases very good machines.

Now if you're talking about the software, you are really wanting to compare two perating systems: MacOS and Windows, or rather MacOSX and Windows NT, since Apple and Microsoft have released various branches of their OSes. Windows only works on Intel-compatible machines, while MacOSX works on both Intel and PowerPC architectures. So eventually, both OSes work on what you would define as a PC...

So it seems you are talking about OSes... why then restrict it to Windows and MacOSX? There are lots of others. You mentioned Linux, which is not an OS but a kernel. GNU/Linux (which is an OS) runs on tens of different architectures where MacOS and Windows have never run. Same with BSD systems, such as FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD. These systems are worth speaking about because they do things that Windows or MacOS can't do properly or are based on a different view of software development.

I began my PC history with Macs. We had old Macs at home (LCII, MacIIcx/si) and I spent a lot of time playing with them. I installed YellowDog Linux on a Mac 4400/200 around 2000 and enjoyed it, but it was not stable enough on this machine. A few years later, when I bought a new computer, I made myself an AMD machine and put Mandrake on it. Since then I have almost only used GNU/Linux on my machines, except when I had to use something else.

Now how about Windows Vista vs. MacOSX, since that seems to be your question really...

MacOSX is a solid OS mostly because it is a *nix, based on BSD, with a nice proprietary interface on top of it for the user friendliness. I believe that open-source systems are less likely to have security issues. If everybody can see and fix what is inside their computer, the fixes come faster than if nobody can see how it's made. So to me, MacOSX is safe for the same reason as GNU/Linux or *BSD systems.

I often take the example of a sandwich to compare Windows and Linux. If Windows was a sandwich, you wouldn't be able to open it and see what's inside. If you did, and if you changed anything, added some sauce or removed some piece of meat or fix some eggs, you would be called a pirate. Now if Linux was a sandwich, it would be a perfectly normal sandwich, that you have the right to open, check, fix and so on. Pretty normal heh? Linux sandwiches customers would even be given the recipe on request. Who would trust someone who would sell a sandwich and prevent users from looking inside and changing/adding what they want?

Now if I keep the sandwich comparison. Let's imagine there's a problem with sandwiches. They make people sick. With the Linux sandwich, people will look inside and since they can see everything that's in and even get the recipe, someone is likely to find the reason why they get sick pretty fast, report it to other customers and to the seller, and it's fixed pretty fast. With the Windows sandwich on the other hand, nobody can look inside but the seller. And since the seller only cares to make money and doesn't really eat his sandwiches himself, customers are sick but they have no way to know why or to prevent it.

MacOSX is somewhere in the middle, having a BSD base called Darwin. It thus benefits from this model.

I think the proprietary model is a failure and will disappear in the future. I think Windows Vista is a bad attempt to get to MacOS and GNU/Linux OSes, 5 years late. Vista might well be the beginning of the end for Microsoft.


Edit: right now, I am on a Macintosh computer (Powerbook G4) running GNU/Linux.

 

[smacksnox]

CD "tray"???

Dragging a program from a CD to the desktop creates a shortcut???

This guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

Mac OS Ibook G4

 

[raphink]

Mac OS Ibook G4

MacOS maybe... possibly 10.4 or so...
The ibook G4 has nothing to do with it though, it's just a machine that could run another OS or version of MacOS...

 

[TheReasoner]

I have been using computers since I was young. In 1989 we got our first computer, I was 8 at the time. I have been through DOS, Windows 3.11, Windows 95, 98, 2000/200Server, NT 4.0/NT4.0 Server, XP/2003 Server and various Vista releases. But I am most familiar with Windows 2000/2003 Server and XP on workstations.
I have also used macs since 1989, and have used System 6, system 7, 8, 9 and 10.4 (Mac OS X, Tiger)
I am not really familiar with Linux, but have touched the OS once or twice.

I own two PCs, running XP, Vista RC2 and SuSe (well, I WOULD like to learn how to use Linux). And one Mac (a PowerBook G4) with OSX 10.4

I use Windows for work as a techie, and Mac OS is my OS of choice at home. There are many functions in OS X I miss in XP, or 2003 which makes me choose OSX at home. I am very fond of the OS' elegance and feel.
What's more;
My mac has fewer problems in a workstation based network than any Windows installation I have tried.
It is great for networking. Even joins AD without any hassle. Though this is without much encryption

I love the power Darwin presents. I like AppleScript, and consider automator an interesting tool. SpotLight is a dream come true, and... And...
Well, basically I adore the way Mac OS X has been developed into a user's dream. It has the simplicity a new user would find appealing.
It has the power an experienced user would love. It has good security implemented into the system. For home use, it is great.

However, my experience with macs is also limited to the computers as standalone machines. I am not familiar with administring a large number of computers with Mac OS X. I am, however familiar with Windows computers in large networks, and as there are so many good solutions available for this OS exclusively in a large setting - Windows is also the OS I would choose for a large corporation or company. Macs do not seem to really cut it as an OS built for that kind of network. But then again, I have not attempted this.

Hardware wise there is much to prefer with "PCs". You can build a Windows or Linux based computer yourself. A mac, you gotte buy pre-made. Also, the mac portables have been a nightmare to perform some upgrades on. Ever changed a disk on a PowerBook G4? Well, don't try unless you must. And if you must - then get an online guide to help.
What's more, the "airport" (Wireless card for macs) on their portables is lousy, to say the least. It is slow, and has very bad connectivity.

So, which OS I choose depends on which function I would want performed. Windows simply has the edge in larger networks. Though I imagine this may change, so far Windows still has the bulk of serious admin software and therefore has the edge as a workstation system for larger companies.
Macs seem perfect for smaller groups of people.

What also surprises me is how my mac seems to be slow at browsing the internet, if the connection to the web is over 1Mbps, downloading off the web, surfing and so on simply does not take advantage of the bandwidth at the computer's disposal. While browsing a LAN goes like a dream. This does not seem to be bound to any one browser, but seems universal.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I would love to have a nice dialog about Macs and Windows-based PCs, with some additional talk about Linux too. But keep your gloves on please!

I started toying with computers when I was very young, at my grandpa's house on his old Packard Bell. Well, at the age of around 12 or 13 I got ahold of my first computer, which hapened to be a Packard Bell. My first exposure to the online world was CompuServe, back before the Internet was popular. As the years went by, I upgraded and moved from various different Windows-based machines. I had a Compaq and something else, as well as a machine that I put together myself. I used DOS, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, ME, 2000, and XP.

About a year and a half ago, I was living abroad before returning to my home in the US for a one-year stay (I'm back living abroad). I purchased an Apple laptop, the iBook G4, and had it waiting for me when I got back to the states. I LOVED it. All throughout my Windows career I had problem after problem. Whether it was the hardware and drivers, or Windows and reformatting, it was issue after issue. I was a bit of a computer geek, so I could handle them all, but they were always frustrating. Not to mention the virus issues and malware.

With my iBook, I NEVER had an issue. No hardware issues, no reformatting needed, no freezes or hangs. In a year and a half use of the iBook, I never had a system crash, not one. And, even though I've never used a single virus or malware protection software, I've never had a single virus or malicious program on my computer.

So, you can say I'm convinced - I've converted to Mac. I now own a MacBook with the new Intel Core Duo processors, and I feel an amazing new amount of freedom to explore. Although I had never felt a need to use Windows with my iBook G4, I enjoy toying with it as well as Linux installations on my new laptop, using virtual machines (Parallels Desktop).

What do you think? Is Mac overrated? Will the switch to Intel make Mac no different from the others? Will Windows Vista close the gap betwen the security issues between the two comepetitors, or do you think Macs (OS X) would be just as vulnerable if they were as popular?

Wow...that sounds exactly like my story! Down to the Packard Hell and the timeframe getting the exact same Mac. Kinda scary!

Macs rule.

The few things they have against them:
-You can't get every game on them. Waaah, waaah. We can get over that.
-They are strange and weird to the average user like my poor father.
Can't think of anything else! Price isn't a factor if you take into account the time and effort you will put into a Windows-based PC and the TON of high-quality software they are packed with. My stress level at home dropped WAY down after I got the Mac. I spent a lot of my time doing maintenance on my XP box and it was a real drag. I do IT support all day and it's reallllly nice to come home to something that:

Just works.

 

[TheReasoner]

Wow...that sounds exactly like my story! Down to the Packard Hell and the timeframe getting the exact same Mac. Kinda scary!

Macs rule.

The few things they have against them:
-You can't get every game on them. Waaah, waaah. We can get over that.
-They are strange and weird to the average user like my poor father.
Can't think of anything else! Price isn't a factor if you take into account the time and effort you will put into a Windows-based PC and the TON of high-quality software they are packed with. My stress level at home dropped WAY down after I got the Mac. I spent a lot of my time doing maintenance on my XP box and it was a real drag. I do IT support all day and it's reallllly nice to come home to something that:

Just works.

Fair points.

I have no idea why this is so, but it seems that since the dawn of time Macs have had a lot more shareware available. As it is now, the age iof shareware is pretty much past. But Open Source is hotter than ever. And it would seem; There's a lot of it for Mac OS X. Good stuff too. Real good stuff.

You mention games. I do like to have the opportunity to play a few games. I am no gamer anymore, but still. WarCraft 3 does nicely. But sometimes I get a craving for a game of HalfLife, or BattleField.
In such situations it is nice to have a capable Windows box available privately as well.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Fair points.

I have no idea why this is so, but it seems that since the dawn of time Macs have had a lot more shareware available. As it is now, the age iof shareware is pretty much past. But Open Source is hotter than ever. And it would seem; There's a lot of it for Mac OS X. Good stuff too. Real good stuff.

You mention games. I do like to have the opportunity to play a few games. I am no gamer anymore, but still. WarCraft 3 does nicely. But sometimes I get a craving for a game of HalfLife, or BattleField.
In such situations it is nice to have a capable Windows box available privately as well.

I've tried OpenOffice on my Mac. Other that being pretty slow to load, it's not bad.

I briefly played WoW on the Mac and it ran very well.

 

[ArcticFox]

Some great comments guys! Sorry I've been myseriously absent from my own thread lately. But here I am now...

Yes, the traditional argument against a Mac has been two-fold: cost and software compatibility. Those two things are changing (but not gone).

As for cost, yes it's still generally more expensive, period. However, depending on you do your comparison, lower-end Mac modules (which are not low-end in general) are very comparable to mid-range Windows machines. As for the cheapie IBM-clone Windows-machines, there is no beating them for cost.

I like what WalksWithChrist mentioned about the cost. Shouldn't we factor in all the time spent dealing with crashes/freezes, reformatting and reinstalling, on the phone with Microsoft (for non-techies), and the like? To avoid all of this hassle and have a machine that virtually never needs a reformat, and virtually never crashes, is it not worth a little extra cash?

As for the software compability issue, especially with games, there is a very easy and simple solution, though it may raise the cost of your machine - you simply install Windows XP as a dual-boot option. This allows your new MacIntel (Mac with an Intel processor) to run Windows as natively as any other IBM compatible PC. A word of caution, of course: don't try big 3D gaming with the lower end laptops, since they use integrated graphic memory (using system RAM instead of devoted RAM). I have such a laptop, whic I purchased because I don't do 3D gaming and liked the price.

Some people complain that they don't want to reboot to access a simple Windows program. The answer is Parallels Desktop (commerial), which runs most operating systems (including all of the Windows versions) within your Mac OS inside a virtual machine, so you can access both systems at once, your Mac OS X being the primary one of course. Not the best choice for gaming, since you will run only around 60-80% of the speed it would run natively. But for most applications, you would NEVER know you weren't running Windows natively.

A third option is CrossWire, which allows you to run individual Windows programs without needing a copy of Windows and without running a virtual machine (and yes, it's all legal, though the software is commercial).

Currently I dual-boot Mac OS X and Windows XP, with Windows XP and Ubuntu Linux as virtual machines through Parallels Desktop. There is virtually no program I could ever want that won't run on my computer now .

However, some criticise the move to Intel and say that it now leaves Mac hardware in the same boat as everyone else, susceptible to the clone manufacturers who are known for making cheap PCs (and cheap here means both low-cost and low-quality). For the average Mac fan, however, they would never purchase such a machine.

I agree that what they say is possible in the future, but I think Apple will retain its status as a specialty. With their unique machines tailored so closely to the operating system, and their packaging of high-quality software ready to use out-of-the-box, I doubt clones are going to find it easy to compete. After all, if Apple doesn't license out its operating sysetem and software, there will not be a big market for people paying for their machine, and then paying separately for the operating system, all to end up needing to use some hacks to get it to work, or to find that some of their hardware is dysfunctional (or non-functional).

As a side note, the argument for the security of Macs is definitely valid, but only if we are running OS X. And even this may change if people start targetting the system, although contrary to what Mac opponents say, it is NOT 'just as vulnerable as a Windows machine.' OS X is built upon the [pretty] solid foundation of Unix, and it doesn't include such susceptible aspects as ActiveX controls, Active Desktop (web-based desktop), and the infamous registry. The places for software to embed itself on a Windows machine are just limitless, especially when you take into account the cumbersome c:\Windows folder and the registry. We also shouldn't forget that although you can avoid using your Supervisor account in Windows, it's a real pain for anyone who uses their machines extensively. Unlike Unix, you have to be a Supervisor in Windows to get much of anything done to your system.

In the end, I believe that a Windows machine used on a regular basis, especially with someone who likes to toy around and install various applications, is itself classifiably /bloatware/. Bloatware is what we call software that is just too cumbersome and huge for its own good, often including much unnecessary integration (such as the integration of IE into Explorer.exe). Consider Windows and OS X in this regard: it's like trying to throw a rock at someone, Windows being the huge sumo wrestler, and OS X being the skinny geek who disappears if he turns sideways.

But I wish Apple wouldn't tout their security so much, because that's just asking for trouble. If you want the hacker/cracker community to target you, just brag about how secure your system is.

 

[The thinker]

I would definetly buy a mac if it weren't for two problems:

1) I love gaming and it would be very annoying always having to find the mac version of games and software. Especially living in the middle east where it is hard enough to get any software at all!

2) I also like messing around with my hardware changing upgrading and generally fiddling around with it. As far as I know you cant do this with macs, well not easily anyway.

Other than those two issues Mac beats windows imo.

EDIT: Imo dual booting defeats the point in using Mac in the first place, I would use it so that I wouldn't have to worry about all the crashes and problems I have with gaming on windows. If I dual booted then I would still ave all the problems because i'd still be using windows for the gaming.

 

[TheReasoner]

I would definetly buy a mac if it weren't for two problems:

1) I love gaming and it would be very annoying always having to find the mac version of games and software. Especially living in the middle east where it is hard enough to get any software at all!

2) I also like messing around with my hardware changing upgrading and generally fiddling around with it. As far as I know you cant do this with macs, well not easily anyway.

Other than those two issues Mac beats windows imo.

EDIT: Imo dual booting defeats the point in using Mac in the first place, I would use it so that I wouldn't have to worry about all the crashes and problems I have with gaming on windows. If I dual booted then I would still ave all the problems because i'd still be using windows for the gaming.

1) - get a mac, and install Windows in dualboot.

2) For the most part, true.

EDIT:
If you really really want to you can make a mac unstable. Just with a regular use they do not get unstable. Wherease if you fiddle too much you can ruin it quite well.
If you do not want Windows you can still use WINE, or Crossover. They are not very stable though.
(You can get WINE for mac now, can't you?)

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I would definetly buy a mac if it weren't for two problems:

1) I love gaming and it would be very annoying always having to find the mac version of games and software. Especially living in the middle east where it is hard enough to get any software at all!

2) I also like messing around with my hardware changing upgrading and generally fiddling around with it. As far as I know you cant do this with macs, well not easily anyway.

Other than those two issues Mac beats windows imo.

EDIT: Imo dual booting defeats the point in using Mac in the first place, I would use it so that I wouldn't have to worry about all the crashes and problems I have with gaming on windows. If I dual booted then I would still ave all the problems because i'd still be using windows for the gaming.

I still have my old PC I occasionally upgrade for these reasons.


Cool member name!

 

[wiggsfly]

I was a real big fan of Mac in the days before OsX. Now I just feel cheated as if mac is nothing but an intel PC with Linux.....

 

[A2597]

I am a graphic designer, with a preferance towards PCs.

took me a long time to figure out what biased me against Macs...and it finally hit me about a week ago.

It's not macs I have a problem with, it's the people that use them...the whole "Holier than thou", "Macs rock, you are an idiot if you think anything else. No you are Not entitled to your own opinion" people that seem to be the majority of Mac users...they are the reason why I will never own a mac in my life.