(M.H-35)"Standard" Argument for Irreducible Complexity

[Tomk80]

No one is running away from it. It is clear we have the most ability to solve complex problems and patterns i.e. IQ Sure you can't give a dolphin a standard IQ test, but let's see who has done more during their stint on earth. I haven't seen dolphins build computers, buildings, or rockets that can go to the moon or contemplate the origin of the universe.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is still much debate on whether the IQ test is even a valid test for human intelligence, let alone any other intelligence testing. Bushmen will fail horribly with any IQ-test you throw at them. Does that mean they're less complex than us?

 

[Edx]

The quote is

Once the most complex creature was a bacterium, then it was a jellyfish, then a trilobite, then a fish, and then us.

Once again, you are wrong, as you
He leaves alot of animals in between there for the sake of brevity, but he is clearly saying the most COMPLEX CREATURE IS US DUH

Wow!, You can read his mind? Thats very talented of you Pitt, especially as he's dead.

If Gould reallly wanted to state unquestionably that we are the most complex organism he would have said so but that is not the point he is making anyway it is that bacteria still rule this planet because they are a more capable organism. And if he had wanted to make sure to say we are the most complex animal ever he wouldnt have left out all the animals that clearly DO have more complicated features than us.

Its not like he's even listing out lineage. We didnt evolve from jellyfish, or trilobites. So to "leave animals out for the sake of brevity", doesnt make sence either. He is just listing random animals! And he chooses to list the most SIMPLE animals... but accoriding to you all thats just a coinsidence! And that when he says we are more complex than "bacterium, jellyfish, and a trilobite.." and "fish" this means we are therefore more complex than ALL LIFE ON EARTH - YEY!

Once again, you are wrong, which you should be getting used to by now

You still maintain we rule this planet despite Gould saying bacteria do? Or maybe you are willing to conceed you were wrong about at least that.

Or maybe, where you amusingly said that trilobites "STILL EXIST", you will be willing to say "okay, I was wrong about that".

No?

Or perhaps the part when you said humans are more complicated "every way", which then turned into "best overall", which really only meant the brain can make up for our other crappy organs.. but thats hardly more complex "in every way" Pitt, as that suggests something is more complex "in every way" one might choose to think about it. Afterall that IS what the words mean.

Or perhaps the part where you were asked for a mathematical Unit of measurement for complexity in order to scientifically assess this claim of yours, and you said "Intelligence", which isnt mathematical measurement. And I guess since youve skipped this question so many times you just cant come up with a dodge yet.

Ed

 

[Edx]

No one is running away from it. It is clear we have the most ability to solve complex problems and patterns i.e. IQ Sure you can't give a dolphin a standard IQ test, but let's see who has done more during their stint on earth. I haven't seen dolphins build computers, buildings, or rockets that can go to the moon or contemplate the origin of the universe.

Intelligence is not a measurement of complexity of the brain as an organ, neither could it be used to access other organs "complexity". You've already been told this.

Can you or can you not come up with mathematical and scientific way of determining objectively the complexity of an organ in relation to the entire organism.

 

[pittguy579]

If Gould reallly wanted to state unquestionably that we are the most complex organism he would have said so but that is not the point he is making

LOL this is hilarious. He said WHAT HE SAID..HE DID SAY SO
HE MEANT we were the most complex creature
You just can't take you are wrong for the umteenth time
Checkmate

anyway it is that bacteria still rule this planet because they are a more capable organism.

Are we back to this? They are not functionally more capable.
Is your head a black hole?

And if he had wanted to make sure to say we are the most complex animal ever he wouldnt have left out all the animals that clearly DO have more complicated features than us.

You obviously are either in denial or can't read very well or both.
It is apparent he was using examples and skipping a number of other animals for the sake of brevity. He is clearly saying we are the most complex creature now.




Its not like he's even listing out lineage. We didnt evolve from

You still maintain we rule this planet despite Gould saying bacteria do? Or maybe you are willing to conceed you were wrong about at least that.

I am not wrong.

Or maybe, where you amusingly said that trilobites "STILL EXIST", you will be willing to say "okay, I was wrong about that".

Minor point. It still is irrelevant to the gist of the quote, He said we are CURRENTLY THE MOST COMPLEX CREATURE RIGHT NOW

Or perhaps the part when you said humans are more complicated "every way", which then turned into "best overall", which really only meant the brain can make up for our other crappy organs.. but thats hardly more complex "in every way" Pitt, as that suggests something is more complex "in any way" one might think about it. Afterall that IS what the words mean.

Our intelligence makes us the most complex creature.

Or perhaps the part where you were asked for a mathematical Unit of measurement for complexity in order to scientifically assess this claim of yours, and you said "Intelligence", which isnt mathematical measurement. And I guess since youve skipped this question so many times you just cant come up with a dodge yet.

No one was dodging. I said show me an animal with overall better abstract reasoning and problem solving abilities.
I bet you can't

It is clear to anyone with a room temperature IQ we are the most intelligent creatures on earth

 

[pittguy579]

Intelligence is not a measurement of complexity of the brain as an organ, neither could it be used to access other organs "complexity". You've already been told this.

It is a measurement of brain efficiency/horspower. You have been told this.

 

[Tomk80]

It is a measurement of brain efficiency/horspower. You have been told this.

Now I want a source for this statement.

 

[Edx]

LOL this is hilarious. He said WHAT HE SAID..HE DID SAY SO
HE MEANT we were the most complex creature
You just can't take you are wrong for the umteenth time

He said we were the most complex creature... in comparison to 4 of the most simple creatures.

You say its just a coincidence he happened to pick these, even though we have no reason to think he meant that.

Are we back to this? They are not functionally more capable.
Is your head a black hole?

Sorry Pitt, that was Goulds entire point. To say that bacteria, while simple, still rule this planet.

You obviously are either in denial or can't read very well or both. It is apparent he was using examples and skipping a number of other animals for the sake of brevity. He is clearly saying we are the most complex creature now.

Once again, if thats what he really meant why didnt he compare us to some creatures that have more complex eyes, more complex hearing? He didnt, because thats not what he meant, but you want to keep reading into what he is saying while completly ignoring the context at the same time.

I dont know why you snipped this part:

Its not like he's even listing our lineage. We didnt evolve from jellyfish, or trilobites. So to "leave animals out for the sake of brevity", doesnt make sence either. He is just listing random animals! And he chooses to list the most SIMPLE animals... but accoriding to you all thats just a coinsidence! And that when he says we are more complex than "bacterium, jellyfish, and a trilobite.." and "fish" this means we are therefore more complex than ALL LIFE ON EARTH - YEY!

You still maintain we rule this planet despite Gould saying bacteria do? Or maybe you are willing to conceed you were wrong about at least that.

I am not wrong.

Despite what Gould says. Good Job. Very consistent.

Or maybe, where you amusingly said that trilobites "STILL EXIST", you will be willing to say "okay, I was wrong about that".

Minor point. It still is irrelevant to the gist of the quote, He said we are CURRENTLY THE MOST COMPLEX CREATURE RIGHT NOW

Thats right you meant it as a minor point, thats why you wrote it in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS.

Still, this is as close as you have gotten to actually admitting you were wrong about something.

Or perhaps the part when you said humans are more complicated "every way", which then turned into "best overall", which really only meant the brain can make up for our other crappy organs.. but thats hardly more complex "in every way" Pitt, as that suggests something is more complex "in any way" one might think about it. Afterall that IS what the words mean

Our intelligence makes us the most complex creature

.
Good Job, thanks for not reading my post correctly!

Or perhaps the part where you were asked for a mathematical Unit of measurement for complexity in order to scientifically assess this claim of yours, and you said "Intelligence", which isnt mathematical measurement. And I guess since youve skipped this question so many times you just cant come up with a dodge yet.

No one was dodging. I said show me an animal with overall better abstract reasoning and problem solving abilities.
I bet you can't

Thats not what you said at all. You said that we have so much intelligence that we are measurably more complex than all other life. You have to come up with a scientific way of determining that, or you have absolutely nothing but your own opinion.

Ed

 

[Edx]

It is a measurement of brain efficiency/horspower. You have been told this.

No, it isnt, "Intelligence" is not a mathematical measurement.IQ cant even measure how complex a human brain is. I can take a test when Im tired, and get a completely different result from when Im up and awake. But the complexity of my brain hasnt changed. If it doesnt even work with humans how are you supposed to use IQ to measure other animals?

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion.

 

[jwu]

Actually i have to agree that Gould was saying that we are the most complex creature, by an unspecified measure. It's rhe most straightforward interpretation there. It still doesn't make it relevant though, nor necessarily correct.

 

[pittguy579]

No, it isnt, "Intelligence" is not a mathematical measurement.IQ cant even measure how complex a human brain is. I can take a test when Im tired, and get a completely different result from when Im up and awake. But the complexity of my brain hasnt changed. If it doesnt even work with humans how are you supposed to use IQ to measure other animals?

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion.

It is obvious to anyone we are the most intelligent.
Show me a creature with greater planning problem solving and abstract thinking abilities. Just name me one.
I am waiting

 

[pittguy579]

Actually i have to agree that Gould was saying that we are the most complex creature, by an unspecified measure. It's rhe most straightforward interpretation there. It still doesn't make it relevant though, nor necessarily correct.

Thank you for your common sense
Others are blinded by denial
At least you have spoken the truth that Gould did say we are the most complex creature

I am done with this thread
Too many people can't read and can't think and have lost a long time ago that it is pointless to go on. They are grasping for straws and it is apparent

 

[jwu]

Still,. Gould also clearly stated in that article that bacteria currently rule the world. Complexity is all nice, but not relevant.

 

[Goatboy]

Complexity is all nice, but not relevant.

Nor irreducible.

 

[Tomk80]

Thank you for your common sense
Others are blinded by denial
At least you have spoken the truth that Gould did say we are the most complex creature

I am done with this thread
Too many people can't read and can't think and have lost a long time ago that it is pointless to go on. They are grasping for straws and it is apparent

The irony of this statement is killiing me. For someone who has misread so many posters in this thread so many times without ever even acknowledging his errors when this was pointed out, saying others can't read can only be a case of an utter reading incomprehension problem.

 

[lucifersgirl]

the great satan created evolution

 

[Edx]

No, it isnt, "Intelligence" is not a mathematical measurement.IQ cant even measure how complex a human brain is. I can take a test when Im tired, and get a completely different result from when Im up and awake. But the complexity of my brain hasnt changed. If it doesnt even work with humans how are you supposed to use IQ to measure other animals?

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion

It is obvious to anyone we are the most intelligent.

Thats not a scientific approach, Pitt. In science we test our assumptions.

Show me a creature with greater planning problem solving and abstract thinking abilities. Just name me one.
I am waiting

Thats brain power Pitt, you said our brain power makes us the most complex "overall". Therefore you must have a way to mathematically measure complexity.

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion

 

[Tomk80]

Thats not a scientific approach, Pitt. In science we test our assumptions.



Thats brain power Pitt, you said our brain power makes us the most complex "overall". Therefore you must have a way to mathematically measure complexity.

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion

There's another problem here. Who says the brain power of dolphins isn't as good as ours, but they can't make the same accomplishments because they have flippers instead of fingers?

 

[Edx]

Too many people can't read and can't think and have lost a long time ago that it is pointless to go on. They are grasping for straws and it is apparent

So says the guy that thinks just saying "I am not wrong" is a smart argument.

 

[Edx]

There's another problem here. Who says the brain power of dolphins isn't as good as ours, but they can't make the same accomplishments because they have flippers instead of fingers?

Thats right, they could be more complex in other ways just not directed towards intelligence. Pitt cant even admit he is wrong about the simplest thing here, so it doesnt matter anyway

 

[pittguy579]

The irony of this statement is killiing me. For someone who has misread so many posters in this thread so many times without ever even acknowledging his errors when this was pointed out, saying others can't read can only be a case of an utter reading incomprehension problem.

Nope, I can read just fine. Others are either blind or functionally illiterate