(M.H-35)"Standard" Argument for Irreducible Complexity

[pittguy579]

How have you measured that? Have you compared there structures?

No, other scientists have an indicated we are more intelligent than dolphins or whales and any other creature on earth

 

[Edx]

No, other scientists have an indicated we are more intelligent than dolphins or whales and any other creature on earth

Oh? Like Gould, the guy who doesnt agree with you at all even if we assume he really thought we are the most complex animal on earth?

 

[pittguy579]

Oh? Like Gould, the guy who doesnt agree with you at all even if we assume he really thought we are the most complex animal on earth?

Gould does agree with me
And you are saying human's do not have the greatest amount of intellectual horsepower out of all the animals on the planet?

 

[Tomk80]

No, other scientists have an indicated we are more intelligent than dolphins or whales and any other creature on earth

But that doesn't answer the question whether our brains are more complex. Dolphins are very close to us in terms of cognitive ability, as they've got a high level of abstraction. Our own cognitive abilities might be the result of a few relatively simple extra rules. We still don't know enough about how our brains work in comparison to other highly cognitive animals to make a definite conclusion about that.

On top of that, as I've already pointed out, cognitive ability is but one of the features following from the complexity of our brains. Other animals, like dolphins, may rank lower on this but higher on other processes controlled by the brain. We do not know how this adds to the overall complexity of their brains, and you haven't given any good reasons for that.

So in terms of overall complexity of dolphin versus human brain, we may get some extra points for intelligence, while dolphins will get some extra for sonar. As we can't purely deduce complexity from these functions, we cannot make a definite statement on which of those brains is more complex. For that we will have to make structural comparisons. I for one have no idea how to make those.

 

[Tomk80]

Gould does agree with me

You don't know that, and we'll never find out again. He never stated that we are the most complex, not in the snippets you provided. He stated that we are more complex than some of the lower order animals, bactia, jellyfish, trilobites etc. He did not make a statement on the higher order mammals like dolphins or other apes than us. That's something you're reading into his statement, not something he has said.

And Gould definitely doesn't agree with you that humans are on top in the world. He specifically stated otherwise in the very article you quoted.

And you are saying human's do not have the greatest amount of intellectual horsepower out of all the animals on the planet?

But you were not arguing that. You were arguing overall horsepower. Humans have the largest intellectual capability, sure. But that is one aspect, not an overall assessment. I, for one, would have no idea how to make such an assessment. I think any such comparison, just as comparisons in 'overall' complexity complexity of animals are rubbish, as several different complex structures cannot be compared. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Tomk80]

They're not to my knowledge. Remember that engineering isn't really a science, and offers very little insight into science outside a very narrow view of materials and thermodynamics. This is coming from an ex engineer by the way

The only measurement methods on complexity I can find come from computer science. Here there are several proposed methods of measuring complexity. They all center (big surprise) on the structure of the program, for example how much time it takes to perform a step or how many instructions something takes. An example are Halstead complexity measures. The ability the step causes isn't taken into account in these measures. And even here there is much debate on whether such a measure actually makes sense in the first place as a measure of complexity.

Also remember that trains have what are sometimes called engineers

lol. Only not in the Netherlands

 

[Split Rock]

So you are saying dolphins are smarter than us? Dolphin brains have more problem solving ability than we do?
Really, is that what you are saying?
Size doesn't matter. Output does. Output in a brain is measured by intelligence.

I am saying that dolphin brains are as complex as ours structurally. They have a large cerebral cortex and even more folds than ours (more surface area) which is the best physical indicator of intelligence. Did you look at the reference I provided?

No, other scientists have an indicated we are more intelligent than dolphins or whales and any other creature on earth

I would love to see some references to back this statement up, 'cause I think you are making stuff up. Show me a scientific paper providing measurements of dolphin intelligence in a way that compares it to human intelligence. I bet you can't.

 

[Split Rock]

Gould does agree with me
And you are saying human's do not have the greatest amount of intellectual horsepower out of all the animals on the planet?

Please provide us with an objective way of measuring "intellectual horsepower."

 

[pittguy579]

I am saying that dolphin brains are as complex as ours structurally. They have a large cerebral cortex and even more folds than ours (more surface area) which is the best physical indicator of intelligence. Did you look at the reference I provided?

Structurally yes, but functionally, no they are not more complex
Not even the paper you cited says so.

I would love to see some references to back this statement up, 'cause I think you are making stuff up. Show me a scientific paper providing measurements of dolphin intelligence in a way that compares it to human intelligence. I bet you can't.

It is obvious we are more intelligent than dolphins.

 

[vitodabona]

Please provide us with an objective way of measuring "intellectual horsepower."

Theton levels ala Scientology ?

 

[pittguy579]

]You don't know that, and we'll never find out again. He never stated that we are the most complex, not in the snippets you provided

He most certainly did. He was saying what the most COMPLEX creatures were of each era. We are the most COMPLEX creatures in this era. Hence, the most complex overall

. He stated that we are more complex than some of the lower order animals, bactia, jellyfish, trilobites etc. He did not make a statement on the higher order mammals like dolphins or other apes than us. That's something you're reading into his statement, not something he has said.

No, that is something you are denying he said. I am not reading anything into it. That is what he said

And Gould definitely doesn't agree with you that humans are on top in the world. He specifically stated otherwise in the very article you quoted.

No, he agrees with me that are the most complex.

But you were not arguing that. You were arguing overall horsepower. Humans have the largest intellectual capability, sure.

Our intelligence is the most malleable. Even if we don't have the innate ability to process signals such as sonar, we can build machines to do it. No other creature can do that.

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

"It is obvious"

I submit that this statement defines the non-scientist.

 

[pittguy579]

"It is obvious"

I submit that this statement defines the non-scientist.

Nope, it defines someone who can't believe people wouldn't believe we are the most intelligent creatures on earth

Kind of like someone doubting the sun rises in the east and sets in the west

 

[Edx]

And Gould definitely doesn't agree with you that humans are on top in the world. He specifically stated otherwise in the very article you quoted.

No, he agrees with me that are the most complex.

Well done, when in doubt just dont read what people write.

 

[Edx]

No, he agrees with me that are the most complex.
.

Even if he did, most complex doesnt equal to most capable. Gould specifically says we are NOT the top of the world.

 

[Edx]

Gould does agree with me
And you are saying human's do not have the greatest amount of intellectual horsepower out of all the animals on the planet?

Have you scientifically defined what this horsepower is so that we can measure it against any other life or organ? No.

Are you saying that Gould says we humans are on top of the world? Are you saying that Gould says we rule this planet? You can add to his words to make him say we are the most complex if you want, but he still says bacteria are the most capable organism and that they rule this planet not us.

 

[pittguy579]

Even if he did, most complex doesnt equal to most capable. Gould specifically says we are NOT the top of the world.

He didn't say we were most numerous, but he did say we were on top i.e. most complex and obviously most capable as far as capablilities

 

[pittguy579]

Have you scientifically defined what this horsepower is so that we can measure it against any other life or organ? No.

Intelligence and ability for abstract thought

 

[pittguy579]

Well done, when in doubt just dont read what people write.

Well obviously you don't have the ability to read because it is clear what he said

 

[jwu]

Even if we don't have the innate ability to process signals such as sonar, we can build machines to do it. No other creature can do that.

So back when humans couldn't do this yet due to a lack of knowledge, were they less "complex" back then?

You're setting a single dolphin against the collective lifetime accomplishments of thousands of scientists here, basically even against the entire human civilization, quite unfair.
In a fair setting, without any knowledge about acoustics and electronics which was slow and painstakingly gained by others and spoonfed during the education i kind of doubt that a single human who has to start from scratch could construct such a machine.