(M.H-35)"Standard" Argument for Irreducible Complexity

[KAG]

I think it has been clear=complex is most overall capability. I have been talking in terms of capablities

I'll repost my earlier questions again:

"I may have missed it, but what criteria for complexity are you using?"

Could you explicitly expand on what you mean by "capable"?

No, it's because your analogies are quite honestly, pointless. We are doing interspecies comparisons and you wanted us to compare intraspecies which is POINTLESS. We are comparing DIFFERENT species. DUH

I thought the analogy was pretty apt, especially for the point he was try to get across, which was something along the lines of terms like "complex", "better", and "capable", are meaningless without working definitions, to quantify them. It seems you have yet to give a clear definition of what you mean when you use terms like capable and complex.

Well I act like the mental age of the people I am speaking to.

Well, who needs to be the bigger person, when "when in Rome" will do. Of course, if you wrongly interpret the mental age of your debators and your audience,....

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Is it just me, or do Pittiguy and James seem eeriely similar?

I dunno, but JamesRWright3's AIM handle is pittguy2. they are both Catholic computer science guys from PA. I wonder which one is Danny and which one is Arnold?

 

[Edx]

I dunno, but JamesRWright3's AIM handle is pittguy2. they are both Catholic computer science guys from PA. I wonder which one is Danny and which one is Arnold?

Really?? HAHAHAHA that settles it then.

Ultimate joke.

Does everyone remember sockpuppet accusations from usenet?

 

[KAG]

I dunno, but JamesRWright3's AIM handle is pittguy2. they are both Catholic computer science guys from PA. I wonder which one is Danny and which one is Arnold?

Good catch . Hmm, how quaint.

 

[jwu]

This thread is pure comedy...

 

[Tomk80]

I dunno, but JamesRWright3's AIM handle is pittguy2. they are both Catholic computer science guys from PA. I wonder which one is Danny and which one is Arnold?

Well, they're both male and come from pittsburgh. So that might be the explanation.

 

[michabo]

Has James been banned? I thought he went with the second persona to avoid being taunted with the whole apples and oranges thing.

One can only hope. But no, I was trying to give James the benefit of the doubt. Getting banned seems milder than making up false names in order to carry on one of the stupidest arguments in months, and then lying about it so poorly. If he was banned, then he would be lying, true, but to avoid getting banned again. If he wasn't banned, then he'd be lying to erect some debating Potemkin villiage out of dust bunnies and spit. Sad, sad stuff.

 

[pittguy579]

No to everyone.

You're not making any sense.

I am making sense. You aren't making any sense

You may have done lots of courses on logic ( ), but you still seem unable to present a logical, well thought out argument, unless you think saying "that's wrong" or " you're stupid " to everything is what logic consists of,you flit around all over the place as well.

I most certainly have presented a logical argument. You just don't want to concede you have been dusted

Try and explain why humans are the apex of evolution from a biological point of view, this doesn't mean saying it is so because we can build cars, I mean proper biologically valid reasons as to why you think humans are biologically better than all other species.

I have explained it. It is pretty obvious that we are to anyone with half a brain.

 

[pittguy579]

I find that difficult to believe

Since you haven't defined complex or capable as those pertain to biological systems the rest of your post is meaningless, and not logical

I have defined most capable over and over again
You are reaching for straws
Checkmate

 

[pittguy579]

But you still havent addressed the fact that "best overall" does not equal "best in every way". Can you at least accept you were wrong when you said that?

We are best overall and best in every way due to intelligence

So a car, a plane, and a boat are not a valid comparisons to bacteria, humans and dolphins?

Nope

 

[pittguy579]

Then bacteria win hands down. They are present in almost every niche imaginable, from the coldest to the hottest spots on earth, places that no human could live in, much less have trillions of offspring within a 24 hour period.

LOL Good one
Bacteria have more overall capabilities than humans?
Very laughable indeed

 

[Baggins]

I have defined most capable over and over again
You are reaching for straws
Checkmate

Why don't you define it once more for us doddering old fools who struggle to keep up with your razor logic

Off you go

Definition os most capable is:...............


My guess i sthat this is the point when he starts saying that we are lazy that he isn't going to do our work for us and that if we check in his posts we will find the definition. Then in about 5 pages someone will do just that and find that he is being parsimonious with the truth and the hand waving will start all over again

 

[pittguy579]

Off you go

Definition os most capable is:...............

Really, it was defined already.
It should be pretty obvious we are the most capable creatures on the planet. Can any other creature accomplish 1/100 th of what we have been able to accomplish? Of course not.

 

[Edx]

We are best overall and best in every way due to intelligence

There you go again.

1. We are not "best in every way". And every time I specificy a reason why we arent the best, you simply say it doesnt count So if I say bacteria is far better than humans will ever be at survivability, you say... " survivability doesn't equal more complex". Well sorry pittguy, but thats still one thing humans arent the best at even with all our technology.

2. So what if an organism gets so intelligent it can design all kinds of amazing machines to do all kinds of amazing tasks. That doesnt mean they are more advanced BIOLOGICALLY in "every other way" than other organisms. But that is exactly what your argument is.

Nope

Why not? What exactly is invalid about my analogy?

 

[Edx]

Really, it was defined already.
It should be pretty obvious we are the most capable creatures on the planet. Can any other creature accomplish 1/100 th of what we have been able to accomplish? Of course not.

And if you look specifically at what bacteria has managed to accomplished its clear we will never be able to accomplish 1/100 th of that. Bacteria lives in the harshed environments on earth, it even lives in animals and you without which we would all die. If we killed all bacteria on earth all animals everywhere would die. But if you killed all the animals and bacteria will still survive. How are humans possibily "more capable" than bacteria??? Technology cannot even begin to help us accomplish anything like what the mighty bacteria can!

 

[pittguy579]

1. We are not "best in every way". And every time I specificy a reason why we arent the best, you simply say it doesnt count

Well the reasons you have given have been trumped

So if I say bacteria is far better than humans will ever be at survivability, you say... " survivability doesn't equal more complex". Well sorry pittguy, but thats still one thing humans arent the best at even with all our technology.

And I hardly call single celled organisms that lack cognitive ability complex. They are relatively complex compared to dirt, no where near as complex and capable overall as a human

2. So what if an organism gets so intelligent it can design all kinds of amazing machines to do all kinds of amazing tasks. That doesnt mean they are more advanced BIOLOGICALLY in "every other way" than other organisms. But that is exactly what your argument is.

We are 99.9 percent of the time. Any deficit we have physiologically, i.e. swimming, running, can be made up via our ability to utilize tools.

I have already pointed out why you analogy is invalid


So you are saying other creatures are capable of more complex tasks overall than humans? Are you being serious?

 

[Edx]

Utter Rubbish on its face

Can bacteria build computers, roads, buildings, study the laws of nature and physics?
So maybe in terms of multiplcation, yeah, but to say they can accomplish more tasks than a human is laughable on its face

You keep ignoring the point. How is building roads, buildings and science really the same as being the toughest form of life on this planet, a form of life that we simply cannot even live without? Dont you understand that? Without bacteria our bodies cant work!

 

[pittguy579]

You keep ignoring the point. How is building roads, buildings and science really the same as being the toughest form of life on this planet, a form of life that we simply cannot even live without? Dont you understand that? Without bacteria our bodies cant work!

Can we accomplish more overall in terms of complex tasks and problem solving than any other creature in the history of earth?
The answer is apparent

 

[pittguy579]

Stephen Jay Gould Agrees With Me
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/1997/01/outspoken.html

. Once the most complex creature was a bacterium, then it was a jellyfish, then a trilobite, then a fish, and then us.

So obviously he thinks we are more complex than a bacterium, something that is obvious to anyone that is not deluisonal
But of course he is illogical and doesn't understand biology

 

[Dannager]

Utter Rubbish on its face

Can bacteria build computers, roads, buildings, study the laws of nature and physics?
So maybe in terms of multiplcation, yeah, but to say they can accomplish more tasks than a human is laughable on its face

Uh...but the ability to multiply and prosper is what evolutionary theory is all about. Evolutionary theory doesn't care a whit for roads.