Lying on the forum

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

I don't see the difference.
Is it wicked for a person to cause someone else's
Faith to be questioned?

Is there anything that should never be questioned,
any belief that is impossible to be mistaken?

There is a big difference, between a non-believer making some statements on their beliefs that may cause a Christian to wonder..and a hypocrite ‘Christian’ who is so non-Christlike it causes a believer to wonder..maybe I was wrong, these ‘pagans’ I know are more Christ-like..it’s a very big, big difference.

It isn’t wrong to question anything, in fact..I highly recommend it. I highly question the ‘Christian’ religious system. Adherents of ‘churchianity’ don’t like that. But they cannot biblically refute what I say nor can they even engage without gaslighting, projection, deflection, distortion, and other non-Christlike tendencies. They only attack the messenger. Just like the religious hypocrite pharisees did to the Lord Jesus Christ. Very telling indeed. As it once was, it will be again (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

 

[Astrid]

There is a big difference, between a non-believer making some statements on their beliefs that may cause a Christian to wonder..and a hypocrite ‘Christian’ who is so non-Christlike it causes a believer to wonder..maybe I was wrong, these ‘pagans’ I know are more Christ-like..it’s a very big, big difference.

It isn’t wrong to question anything, in fact..I highly recommend it. I highly question the ‘Christian’ religious system. Adherents of ‘churchianity’ don’t like that. But they cannot biblically refute what I say nor can they even engage without gaslighting, projection, deflection, distortion, and other non-Christlike tendencies. They only attack the messenger. Just like the religious hypocrite pharisees did to the Lord Jesus Christ. Very telling indeed. As it once was, it will be again (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

Ok that sounds good, and far more realistically
fair minded than what i hear from many christians
or, ftm, what the Bible itself says about how
rotten evil nasty and bad all atheists are.

I wonder what you mean by " question" though?

Does it mean that all things are properly open
to not just question but a change from belief to
disbelief?

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't see the difference.
Is it wicked for a person to cause someone else's
Faith to be questioned?

Is there anything that should never be questioned,
any belief that is impossible to be mistaken?

I think you have misunderstood @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner's point. The wicked people did not question his faith. There behaviour made him question his own faith because he thought "These people behave in this improper way and yet profess the same believes I have. Could my beliefs be mistaken?" @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner , do I have that right?

He is not objecting to the questioning of a persons faith, although here in this tiny portion of the world I understand it is against forum guidelines.

Edit: I have cross posted. I did not see the previous two posts.

 

[Astrid]

I think you have misunderstood @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner's point. The wicked people did not question his faith. There behaviour made him question his own faith because he thought "These people behave in this improper way and yet profess the same believes I have. Could my beliefs be mistaken?" @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner , do I have that right?

He is not objecting to the questioning of a persons faith, although here in this tiny portion of the world I understand it is against forum guidelines.

Edit: I have cross posted. I did not see the previous two posts.

Thanks. I do understand it now.
I've had people try to " rend asunder" my relationships
with those dear to me.
 That is evil.

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

Ok that sounds good, and far more realistically
fair minded than what i hear from many christians
or, ftm, what the Bible itself says about how
rotten evil nasty and bad all atheists are.

I wonder what you mean by " question" though?

Does it mean that all things are properly open
to not just question but a change from belief to
disbelief?

Well, the way I read it; it isn’t so much ‘atheists’ whom the Bible is saying are the ‘evil’ and ‘nasty’ ones. A study of the NT will show that it was false believers; the hypocrite religionists whom Christ was most harsh with, whom He sternly rebuked. He referred to them as dogs, hypocrites, snakes, children of the devil, blind, and more. Read Matthew ch. 23..ain’t atheists He is talking about.

Same for Paul, Peter and John..they were warning the brethren of hypocrites, false teachers, and even instructed the brethren to throw them out of the church, have nothing to do with them.

My point was, there is a world of difference between a non-believer discussing their views which may cause a Christian to ponder, and someone who claims to be of God who is basically everything He hates. Not to say He hates them, but rather what they are..liars.

If someone wants to change from belief to disbelief, it isn’t my place to impose my ways on them. I believe people should be able to make their own choices, whether I may agree with them or not. Christ never imposed His will on anyone, He just said His piece and went about His business.

I think you have misunderstood @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner's point. The wicked people did not question his faith. There behaviour made him question his own faith because he thought "These people behave in this improper way and yet profess the same believes I have. Could my beliefs be mistaken?" @GodBeMercifulToMeASinner , do I have that right?

He is not objecting to the questioning of a persons faith, although here in this tiny portion of the world I understand it is against forum guidelines.

Edit: I have cross posted. I did not see the previous two posts.

Yeah that is it more or less..but to be more precise, what I found and still find particularly distasteful is the ‘Christians’ who always virtue signal on about ‘love’, ‘ grace’, ‘charity’, ‘peace’, and all that yet have none of such at all, quite the opposite. It’s like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer trying to lecture someone on the value of human life LOL. And the reason they virtue signal on about those things while not practicing themselves, is an attempt to CONTROL their opposition. A power play, which I can see straight through.

Now here is the real kicker..the same professing Christians who love to virtue signal on love and grace and all that are the same ones who will take up for murderous tyrants like Martin Luther, or John Calvin, very unchristian ‘Christian’ leaders who had people put to death for disagreeing with their false doctrines. I can’t help but smile when someone tries to scold me about ‘love’ when they take up for murderers.

But wait, there’s even more! Yes! Believe it or not. Let’s say these same people were to pick up a newspaper and see that a random unknown everyday nobody religious person had dozens of people put to death for simply disagreeing with them. What are they likely to think? Cult leader, yes? I know that’s what I would think. Odds are that most professing Christians would too. But these professing Christians who take up for murderous ‘reformers’ seem to have glossed over this fun fact from their very own bible:

“But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”
—James 2:9

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.”
—James 3:17

“Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.”
—Deuteronomy 1:17

We all know that most professing Christians would not want to be associated with some random everyday nobody who had people put to death while professing to be a man of God..but they even name religious movements after famous historical figures who did just that! You can’t make this up!

So, yeah..I HATE manmade religion, and can’t blame anyone who questions the Christian Faith..there’s many frauds claiming it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with the premise that we all lie, even if it is in very minor ways. At my job, for example, because of the way I interact with the general public there will be people who stick around to chit-chat. I try to be polite and kind, and so even if I would like them to go away because I'm working, I will keep being polite, and feign interest in what they are telling me. I've no desire to discuss politics at work, for obvious reasons, but some people really want to--and so I listen without being rude. That is, at least technically, being dishonest on my part. But it is dishonesty for the sake of public decorum and courteousness.

I have also, of course, lied through being indirect. Say I am invited to something, but don't wish to go, rather than being direct and saying "I don't want to go", I'll say "I'm not sure about that". Other times I have been more direct in my lying, "Sorry, I already have plans". Though those "plans" are really just staying in on my Saturday and resting.

I've never been comfortable with straight up lying, it's a discomfort that I developed as a child, because I would frequently be accused of lying even when telling the truth, because adults worked on the premise of "kids lie". I would frequently get in trouble for things I never did, which yes did have a negative impact on my psyche. But a consequence is that my underlying fear of not being believed means that I have a tendency toward being overly honest, which unfortunately can also come across as deception--because "defensive honesty" looks a lot like deceit. This is something even in middle age I am trying work through.

At any rate, I tend to try to be honest. Though I do not like to be rude, and so polite dishonesty, something I suspect all of us do, does exist.

But simply fabricating something, whether in the offline world or online world, isn't something I'd be comfortable with. I know for a fact that I have unintentionally been wrong in many things, I've said things--offline and online--which weren't true, but at the time thought it was true. That's not lying, that's just being wrong. I've heard people refer to rabbits as rodents, well that's wrong, because rabbits aren't rodents--but they weren't lying, they were just wrong. That's a pretty big difference.

On forums such as this, where good faith debate frequently happens, I want to have an argument rooted in objective truth, so if I present information I want it to be as accurate as I am able to make it in the moment. There may be things I get wrong, because I have misunderstood a detail, or lack sufficient information on something; but the intent is to be accurate, to be truthful, and to present information that is, in fact, true. Because an argument based upon known falsehood--on deliberate lies--is no argument at all; it would be deeply offensive to conscience and reason. To be wrong means I can be corrected, but to lie just to make my "argument" look better means I have deeper problems, and that I am a bad faith actor. That would be deeply contrary to matters of faith and conscience to me, as a Christian; thought one doesn't need to be a Christian to recognize how such bad faith arguing is harmful; but as a Christian that kind of behavior would be quite obviously sin and is indicative of a need for not only perhaps emotional and psychological help, but [from a Christian POV] more importantly spiritual help, which is where confession, repentance, and good healthy spiritual counseling comes into play.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

If I detect lying or deliberate fabrication, I access their account, hit the ignore button and forever block their posts to me. Simple.

I get fewer notifications which of course is alright with me.

 

[Godcrazy]

Psychologists tell us that the practice of lying is universal (or nearly so) amongst humans. They also tell us this practice begins at a very young age. Parents with toddlers, or with long memories of having had toddlers, may well be able to relate to that. However, the object of this thread is not to debate the truth of these assertions. For the purposes of this discussion I would like you to take these as true. I wish to discuss whether the practice of lying differs between participation in forums such as this and how it is practiced in "real life".

In the real world I periodically lie. I do not know to what extent my lying compares with human norms. Do I lie more frequently, or tell much bigger whoppers than the average human? I don't know. I like to think that my lying is less intensive than average, but I would like to think that wouldn't I? (I reviewed my interactions yesterday and the closest I can come to a lie was in omitting to truthfully tell a high pressure salesman that I was not making a decision today because I did not entirely trust what he was telling me.)

And finally I get to the point. I have, as far as I am able to recall, despite telling lies in the real world from time to time I have never told a lie on this forum, or on any other forum several of which I was active on for over a decade and a half. I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere. I have some thoughts, but I would welcome suggestions as to what you think might be the cause. Also, if you feel comfortable doing so, comment on whether you have had similar experiences. And if any of you can identify an instance in any of my posts where I demonstrably lied that would be helpful, as it would remove the anomalous contrast.

I can honestly say that I don't lie. And if I take myself in falling towards there I correct myself. What is more tricky is when you don't, but circumstances fail, and it just looks like it, but you didn't. I value always have being real towards myself. That has helped a lot. But as well I don't care if I tell the truth. I mean it in people can expect lies to cater to their false beliefs or programs.

 

[Brihaha]

How you do anything is how you do everything. If you lie on social media, you lie in real life. Honesty is important to God and me. I still need to work on sensitivity and tact tho. Honesty can be brutal for some folks, especially if they aren't accustomed to hearing it. This reminds me of a funny joke I heard this weekend.

A guy is being interviewed for a job and the interviewer asks him what his biggest weakness is. Guy says honesty is his biggest weakness. Interviewer says "I don't see how honesty can be considered a weakness. I think it's a great strength". Guy says "I don't give a curse what you think."

 

[atpollard]

So.. you want us to tell you why you don't tell lies on a forum? I'm confused.

A spoken message can be forgotten, denied or misremembered.
You are putting words in print ... they will remain forever and come back to bite you.

 

[Nithavela]

A spoken message can be forgotten, denied or misremembered.
You are putting words in print ... they will remain forever and come back to bite you.

Now I'm confused at your post, too. Good job.

 

[Godcrazy]

Now I'm confused at your post, too. Good job.

He means that written words are permanent, and it can be twisted, many times.

 

[Nithavela]

He means that written words are permanent, and it can be twisted, many times.

I can have my written words on this forum deleted on short notice.

 

[Godcrazy]

How you do anything is how you do everything. If you lie on social media, you lie in real life. Honesty is important to God and me. I still need to work on sensitivity and tact tho. Honesty can be brutal for some folks, especially if they aren't accustomed to hearing it. This reminds me of a funny joke I heard this weekend.

A guy is being interviewed for a job and the interviewer asks him what his biggest weakness is. Guy says honesty is his biggest weakness. Interviewer says "I don't see how honesty can be considered a weakness. I think it's a great strength". Guy says "I don't give a curse what you think."

Many people have an automatic response, that telling the truth is rude, being harsh, negative, being nasty towards, and etc. Not saying all people. But it's common.
We have to make sure what assumptions we are making, and subconsciously.
This is called self awareness.
I'm talking generally here
It's a huge problem with people generally speaking and leads to issues and wrong assumptions
I am always careful asking what this or that means because of it
What we hear, is rarely what was intended
They even have made studies in psychology about it
So it's a good thing to say like i hear this, is that how you meant
But, most people are stuck in the beliefs of their own
And as soon as they think someone challenged it, even if they didn't and were innocent, they react
So in this setting, here it goes like this
Just because you tell the truth, doesn't mean you are saying it in a bad way or negative or being harsh or something else.

 

[Godcrazy]

I can have my written words on this forum deleted on short notice.

Well anyway, and it could always be somewhere, just because you delete. You keep hearing about such

 

[Godcrazy]

How you do anything is how you do everything. If you lie on social media, you lie in real life. Honesty is important to God and me. I still need to work on sensitivity and tact tho. Honesty can be brutal for some folks, especially if they aren't accustomed to hearing it. This reminds me of a funny joke I heard this weekend.

A guy is being interviewed for a job and the interviewer asks him what his biggest weakness is. Guy says honesty is his biggest weakness. Interviewer says "I don't see how honesty can be considered a weakness. I think it's a great strength". Guy says "I don't give a curse what you think."

But you are right, we have to be careful how we speak. Especially because of how it can be

 

[Godcrazy]

If I detect lying or deliberate fabrication, I access their account, hit the ignore button and forever block their posts to me. Simple.

I get fewer notifications which of course is alright with me.

That's a better way i think

 

[Godcrazy]

I agree with the premise that we all lie, even if it is in very minor ways. At my job, for example, because of the way I interact with the general public there will be people who stick around to chit-chat. I try to be polite and kind, and so even if I would like them to go away because I'm working, I will keep being polite, and feign interest in what they are telling me. I've no desire to discuss politics at work, for obvious reasons, but some people really want to--and so I listen without being rude. That is, at least technically, being dishonest on my part. But it is dishonesty for the sake of public decorum and courteousness.

I have also, of course, lied through being indirect. Say I am invited to something, but don't wish to go, rather than being direct and saying "I don't want to go", I'll say "I'm not sure about that". Other times I have been more direct in my lying, "Sorry, I already have plans". Though those "plans" are really just staying in on my Saturday and resting.

I've never been comfortable with straight up lying, it's a discomfort that I developed as a child, because I would frequently be accused of lying even when telling the truth, because adults worked on the premise of "kids lie". I would frequently get in trouble for things I never did, which yes did have a negative impact on my psyche. But a consequence is that my underlying fear of not being believed means that I have a tendency toward being overly honest, which unfortunately can also come across as deception--because "defensive honesty" looks a lot like deceit. This is something even in middle age I am trying work through.

At any rate, I tend to try to be honest. Though I do not like to be rude, and so polite dishonesty, something I suspect all of us do, does exist.

But simply fabricating something, whether in the offline world or online world, isn't something I'd be comfortable with. I know for a fact that I have unintentionally been wrong in many things, I've said things--offline and online--which weren't true, but at the time thought it was true. That's not lying, that's just being wrong. I've heard people refer to rabbits as rodents, well that's wrong, because rabbits aren't rodents--but they weren't lying, they were just wrong. That's a pretty big difference.

On forums such as this, where good faith debate frequently happens, I want to have an argument rooted in objective truth, so if I present information I want it to be as accurate as I am able to make it in the moment. There may be things I get wrong, because I have misunderstood a detail, or lack sufficient information on something; but the intent is to be accurate, to be truthful, and to present information that is, in fact, true. Because an argument based upon known falsehood--on deliberate lies--is no argument at all; it would be deeply offensive to conscience and reason. To be wrong means I can be corrected, but to lie just to make my "argument" look better means I have deeper problems, and that I am a bad faith actor. That would be deeply contrary to matters of faith and conscience to me, as a Christian; thought one doesn't need to be a Christian to recognize how such bad faith arguing is harmful; but as a Christian that kind of behavior would be quite obviously sin and is indicative of a need for not only perhaps emotional and psychological help, but [from a Christian POV] more importantly spiritual help, which is where confession, repentance, and good healthy spiritual counseling comes into play.

-CryptoLutheran

You're showing the people at work love, despite wanting to end the conversation etc that's really good I often feel like they feel bad at they know i don't want to talk so I might say something like I'm sorry i don't feel so energetic for a conversation atm etc. You get the idea. Because I would feel bad they know I don't want to. So I prefer to explain it.

 

[Godcrazy]

I'm very interested in what is really going on in the minds of someone, and how, at a deeper level. And I always want to help. So when I see something, I ask what they mean how etc. That goes for what lies behind someone's lying or reasoning. Even though I see, I see it's a deeper thing. It comes from love. For example someone says something obvious like lie and I go that's wrong, but what is behind it, what defense mechanism, what issues. Maybe I can help

 

[atpollard]

I can have my written words on this forum deleted on short notice.

Too late ... I have your post advocating illegal activity

Watch and learn, kids: sending anonymous death threats gets RESULTS!

(you can't delete MY post and I can have the Wayback Machine permanently archive the topic.) [LOL]

NOTE: This was just an attempt to explain the difference between what we say and the permanence of a POST that can be brought back to our attention to either twist its meaning or catch us in a lie. I doubt you even remember the post I quoted ... it was a throw away quip in a conversation.