Lutheran Practices

[Chotki]

Hello ,

Do Lutherans celebrate the Lord's Supper each service? Do you reserve the left over elements in a Tabernacle?

Thanks,
Chotki

 

[RedneckAnglican]

A) yes...
B) No...

I'll let the more knowledgable Lutherans tell you why...Because...quite frankly...i don't know either...

 

[Qoheleth]

Do Lutherans celebrate the Lord's Supper each service? Do you reserve the left over elements in a Tabernacle?

Thanks,
Chotki

As for my Parish, yes.

Of the "left over" elements, they are consumed by the Pastor.

Q

 

[Chotki]

Thanks, I never knew that. I thought it was celebrated once or twice a month like in the Presbyterian Church.

 

[Qoheleth]

Thanks, I never knew that. I thought it was celebrated once or twice a month like in the Presbyterian Church.

Mass is celebrated 7 days a week at my parish.

Q

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Fortunately, we do celebrate the Eucharist at every service...2 on Sunday's, one on Wednesday evening.

Regarding the remaining elements...oh, it hurts to even talk about it. In my church (and I am in no way saying my church's practices are orthodox) the remaining consecrated wine is returned to the Manischewitz bottle and comingled with the unconsecrated wine. The remaining consecrated hosts are returned to the Tupperware container housing the unconsecrated hosts.

I have taken my concern over these practices to the highest authority in my congregation. When challenged I offered documents all the way from Luther, to Walther, to modern day theologians which oppose to this kind of comingling. (Lest anyone think I was ignored because of the manner and tone in which I approached this topic...I assure you I approached this very cautiously and from a position of "I am concerned"...not "you need to".) I was accused of being legalistic.

For you see, my guys are smarter now...have their 21st century sensibilities in order. They got this all figured out. Luther, Walther...they just didn't know what my guys know...

Rose

(BTW...the rare times I am permitted to clean the Table after service I empty all the wine on the ground outside...no comingling. We do not have one of those sinks that drain to the ground. I take all of the consecrated hosts and store them in the pyx...not the tupperware container. And I rinse out all the individual cups, the chalice and the carafe and empty that water on the ground as well. It's all I can and know to do.)

 

[AngelusSax]

Comingling? I don't think that's something I've seen done with consecrated wine... my church has a bottle of wine that is blessed, and they keep using that same bottle of blessed wine until it is gone, then get more....

Any other parishes comingle? That's a new one to me.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Hello ,

Do Lutherans celebrate the Lord's Supper each service? Do you reserve the left over elements in a Tabernacle?

Thanks,
Chotki

As long as we have a pastor to consecrate the bread and wine. . .there are some Sundays we don't, unfortunately.

1st, the wine and bread is taken to the shut-ins and homebound for communion.
The bread is usually eaten or broken onto the ground.
I do not know if they comingle the wine or if it is poured out on the ground.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[SemStudent08]

Hello ,

Do Lutherans celebrate the Lord's Supper each service? Do you reserve the left over elements in a Tabernacle?

Thanks,
Chotki

Ok, I am an ELCA Lutheran, so I will give you that perspective. Traditionally within the ELCA frequency of Eucharist is dependent upon the Pastor. Most churches I know of alternate, one Sunday being a Service of the Word and the next being a service which includes the Eucharist. However, there is a growing trend within the ELCA to move to weekly Eucharistic celebration. The history behind the whole frequency debate is, of course, Luther's emphasis upon both Word and Sacrament and not just Sacrament. Unfortunately this emphasis swung rather hard the other direction, and early Lutheran churches began to focus a great deal upon the Word portion of worship, hence infrequent celebrations of Eucharist. In this day and age it often ends up depending on the pastor and their focus. It can become difficult for a pastor to have a Eucharist service and a good sermon (at leat 15 minutes for a well-developed sermon, though it can vary upon the text, pastor, and time the pastor is able to devote to study, ie the week when a pastor has 3 funerals and a wedding might not have as great a sermon on Sunday is my point) in the same service (just dependent on most people's attention span), so often sermons are shorter on Communion Sundays and lengthier on Sundays where a Service of the Word is celebrated. But, like I said, that is changing. Take a look at the Lutheran liturgy, you might see how things can start going long some times. Ok, some of that was practical and some historical, and probably isn't representative of Lutherans or the ELCA as a whole, but it has been MY experience.

Ok, now that I wrote all of that I found a website which expresses ELCA policy on the matter, so...check this out.

As for the treatment of left over elements. That is a question of the understanding of what is happening in the Sacrament of Bread & Wine. As Lutherans, we believe in [size=-1]con-substansiation as opposed to [/size][size=-1]trans-substansiation. There are all sorts of websites on the differences between the two and I would also recommend checking out Luther's Large Catechism for his discussion of Eucharist.
[/size]

 

[KagomeShuko]

Comingling? I don't think that's something I've seen done with consecrated wine... my church has a bottle of wine that is blessed, and they keep using that same bottle of blessed wine until it is gone, then get more....

Any other parishes comingle? That's a new one to me.

Mine might be that way, too. Oh, wait, yes, I think it is come to think of it. . .it's been awhile since I've helped with altar care.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[ByzantineDixie]

As Lutherans, we believe in [size=-1]con-substansiation as opposed to [/size][size=-1]trans-substansiation. There are all sorts of websites on the differences between the two and I would also recommend checking out Luther's Large Catechism for his discussion of Eucharist.
[/size]

Is that an ELCA thing? LCMS Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation.

 

[revjpw]

Hello ,

Do Lutherans celebrate the Lord's Supper each service? Do you reserve the left over elements in a Tabernacle?

Thanks,
Chotki

In my parish we celebrate the Lord's Supper each Sunday, but that is not a common practice in the LCMS. Many congregations alternate weeks or services when the Sacrament is celebrated.

We do not have a tabernacle (although my home congregation does). Any leftover consecrated elements are stored in the sacristy is seperate containers. The wine/blood of Christ that is left over in the flagon is kept in a seperate bottle from the unconsecrated wine. The left over hosts/body of Christ is kept in the Ciborium (pyx). Any left over wine/blood of Christ in the chalice I usually drink at the altar following distribution. If there is any left in the individual cups, they are consumed by the altar guild people after the service. They don't pour unused cups into the bottle.

The chalice and the used individual cups are rinsed into a small pail and it is poured out on the ground. Our altar guild did not used to do this before my arrival. They used to throw out the individual cups without rinsing them, thus throwing the Blood of Christ into the garbage. Also, we don't have a piscina either (a sink or basin that drains directly into the ground) although we are moving to either re-plumb the current sacristy sink or even construct a new sacristy.

 

[SemStudent08]

Is that an ELCA thing? LCMS Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation.

Yes, it seems that is true on the LCMS website. All I can find is reference to the Real Presence. But I won't go into that, because I'm sure someone who is actually LCMS could do a better job. I'll talk about [size=-1]con-substansiation instead.

Luther never used the term [/size][size=-1]con-substansiation in his writings, but [/size]Melanchthon did in reffering to the ideas Luther expressed. One of the more famous examples would be Luther's illustration of consubstantiation by the analogy of iron put into fire: Iron and fire are united in red-hot iron; yet the two substances remain unchanged.

 

[SemStudent08]

Ok, after checking my history textbooks, some later Lutheran scholars rejected the term "consubstantiation" because they felt it was too ambiguous and had been adopted by other doctrines to mean different things. Which is probably why when I check the ELCA website the term "consubstantiation" is always used in the phrase "the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament through consubstantiation."

 

[Chotki]

So it varies, I see? The only Lutheran Church in the county is an ELCA parish, I'm guessing it would be every other week then.

As for the view on Communion; This also varies? I didn't know that.

(Do you practice private confession?)

 

[SemStudent08]

Ok, found a link on what the ELCA says should be done with left over elements.

http://www.elca.org/dcm/worship/faq/worship_space/lights_elements.html

 

[Qoheleth]

(Do you practice private confession?)

Yes, most definately.

Q

 

[SemStudent08]

So it varies, I see? The only Lutheran Church in the county is an ELCA parish, I'm guessing it would be every other week then.

Depends a lot on the Pastor too.

As for the view on Communion; This also varies? I didn't know that.

No, I erred in using an ambiguous term and not being specific enough in explaining it. Check the Book of Concord (specifically the Large Catechism) and you will find what Lutherans as a whole believe when it comes to Eucharist, which is Real Presence (but not transubstantiation).

(Do you practice private confession?)

I know that Occaisional Services has a service of private confession. And private confession can be a very powerful act and is perfectly valid within the Lutheran chuch. Lutherans do not believe Confession/Absolution (RCC calls it Reconciliation I believe) to be a Sacrament however, though many scholars have said that Luther would have liked to have been able to call it such, but it just didn't fit with Luther's definition of sacrament.

 

[Qoheleth]

Lutherans do not believe Confession/Absolution (RCC calls it Reconciliation I believe) to be a Sacrament however,

Unbelievable. This is a complete falsehood. How can you say this.

From the Lutheran Confessions:


1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches,
(AC Art. XI)

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )

2] For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounces upon individuals. (Apology Art. VI)

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys is also an aid and consolation against sin and a bad conscience, ordained by Christ [Himself] in the Gospel, Confession or Absolution ought by no means to be abolished in the Church, especially on account of [tender and] timid consciences and on account of the untrained [and capricious] young people, in order that they may be examined, and instructed in the Christian doctrine. (SA Art. VIII)[/font]


Q

 

[SemStudent08]

Unbelievable. This is a complete falsehood. How can you say this.

From the Lutheran Confessions:


1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches,
(AC Art. XI)

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )

2] For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounces upon individuals. (Apology Art. VI)

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys is also an aid and consolation against sin and a bad conscience, ordained by Christ [Himself] in the Gospel, Confession or Absolution ought by no means to be abolished in the Church, especially on account of [tender and] timid consciences and on account of the untrained [and capricious] young people, in order that they may be examined, and instructed in the Christian doctrine. (SA Art. VIII)[/font]


Q

Ok...well, if I'm wrong then every Lutheran denomination in the US that I know of is too.

ELCA website - "Lutherans accept two Sacraments as God-given means for penetrating the lives of people with his grace. Although they are not the only means of God's self-revelation, Baptism and Holy Communion are visible acts of God's love."

LCMS website - "The LCMS teaches that there are two sacraments."

WELS website - "The WELS catechism defines a sacrament as "a sacred act that Christ established for his church, in which an earthly element is used together with God's Word, as a means of offering, giving, and sealing the forgiveness of sins and thus also life and salvation." Only Baptism and the Lord's Supper fit that definition of a sacrament."

Its also interesting to note that Luther in his Small Catechism speaks only of the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar. And in the Large Catechism only calls Baptism and Eucharist Sacraments.

Oh...and specifically from the Large Caqtechism..."We have now finished the three chief parts of the common Christian doctrine. Besides these we have yet to speak of our two Sacraments instituted by Christ." Large Catechism - Baptism.

Not sure what Melanchthon was doing adding absolution to the list of Sacraments. But Luther clearly defined a Sacrament as needing a "physical or material element[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]." The only way absolution falls into this is our understanding of the two Sacraments (Baptism and Eucharist) effecting absolution of sins. I guess in a way its Sacramental, but only in conjunction to Baptism or Eucharist in which a "physical element" (ie Water, Bread & Wine) is used.
[/font]