Lutheran Practices

[Qoheleth]

You gotta tell me where I can find one of these parishes. We only have Sunday and Wednesday

As requested

http://www.ziondetroit.org/index.php

Q

 

[Tetzel]

For the record, I'd like to claim that Lutherans believe in 2.5 sacraments with Confession and Absolution being the Schroedinger's Sacrament that is superpositioned between the possibilities of non-sacramental and sacramental status.

 

[Qoheleth]

For the record, I'd like to claim that Lutherans believe in 2.5 sacraments with Confession and Absolution being the Schroedinger's Sacrament that is superpositioned between the possibilities of non-sacramental and sacramental status.

Not sure if that was a joke but in any case, try again.

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )
Q

 

[Protoevangel]

On the one hand, we have the definition of Sacrament that SemStudent08 offered. Thank you SemStudent08 for your scholastic approach to this discussion.

On the other hand, we have someone attacking SemStudent08, insulting him in many personal ways.

On the third hand, we have Rose offering a suggestion that there may be more than one valid definition of the term Sacrament. Thank you Rose, that was a helpful concept considering the direction this discussion has been going.

I would like to suggest that for the purposes of this discussion, we define exactly what our definition of a sacrament is, before we level personal attacks.

Sacrament, or Sacramentum means something to be kept sacred. The definition which includes "an earthly element" is certianly a valid definition, but it seems incomplete somehow, and certianly less than the church had intended since at the latest, the time of Tertullian. Now, another definition, from the Apology reads, a Sacrament is a rite which has the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added. This certianly seems to be a more rich, consistent, and less arbitrary definition. What is it that makes the Sacrament? Is it the earthly element that makes the Sacrament? or is it the Word, Command and Promise of Grace by God that makes the Sacrament? Anything commanded by God, with the Promise of Grace attached cannot be less than a Sacrament, whatever label you want to put on it. Confession/Absolution certianly is not but a "rite", rites can be changed. Like the very definition of sacramentum suggests, Confession/Absolution is something to be kept sacred.

 

[BigNorsk]

SemStudent answered correctly, there are two Sacraments in the Lutheran Churches. Now we can thrash about and say the Confessions list three, but SemStudent gave the answer to it already. The two Sacraments are:

1. Baptistism/Absolution and

2. Communion

Now Baptism isn't normally written that way, but that the third sacrament is present in the first is clearly stated in the Large Catechism IV 74.

The difficulty has come from linking Private Confession to Absolution and then trying to use the statements that Absolution is a Sacrament to "prove" that Private Confession is a Sacrament. I don't believe there is anywhere in the Confessions that it would be stated that Private Confession definitely is a Sacrament though we can certainly change the definition of a Sacrament to include Private Confession. We could also include prayer, preaching, reading, etc. but to what purpose but to create confusion?

Why should we create confusion in a matter that is settled? I am not aware of a single Lutheran synod out there that has other than the two Sacraments. Certainly that at the least is true of the majority. Now how did every Lutheran synod come to the same conclusion from Scripture and the Bible? I would say it must be because it is pretty clear, so let us not muddy the waters now.

So with something so settled, so uniform across Lutheranism, what is the benefit of attacking someone that holds to this uniform belief? SemStudent was in no way incorrect in his position yet he was attacked for holding the clearly orthodox Lutheran position, even told he should leave the Lutheran church because he was in complete agreement with the Lutheran church.

Shameful.

Marv

 

[Chotki]

Leave it to a papist to stir up controversy, sorry guys!

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Now, another definition, from the Apology reads, a Sacrament is a rite which has the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added. This certianly seems to be a more rich, consistent, and less arbitrary definition. What is it that makes the Sacrament? Is it the earthly element that makes the Sacrament? or is it the Word, Command and Promise of Grace by God that makes the Sacrament? Anything commanded by God, with the Promise of Grace attached cannot be less than a Sacrament, whatever label you want to put on it. Confession/Absolution certianly is not but a "rite", rites can be changed. Like the very definition of sacramentum suggests, Confession/Absolution is something to be kept sacred.

Dan--you are such a sharp guy. Do you realize what you did here? You resolved the issue the only place the issue could have been resolved...with in the Confessions.

On the surface this discussion appeared to be about Confession / Absolution (I apologize Marv...I used the word Confession alone a shortcut not to separate it from Absolution) but it seems to me the real, underlying discussion was about faithfulness to the Confessions.

I don't know about the rest of you but I have been instructed in several things (in my classes, by clergy) which I only later found to be contrary to the Confessions. That can be very frustrating to spend all that time learning something only to find out it was half right.

Anyway...I appreciate this forum and those in it who are committed to remaining faithful to the Confessions. I have learned much from them.

Peace

 

[BigNorsk]

Rose,
You are correct, and the point is that having Baptism and Communion as the two Sacraments (actually containing three Sacraments) is in agreement with both the Bible and the Book of Concord. To say it must be otherwise is to say that all of Lutheranism has failed to comprehend the truth.

So where does confession belong, it belongs with the office of the keys, a church office.

From the Smalcald Articles Section VIII 2.

2] But the enumeration of sins ought to be free to every one, as to what he wishes to enumerate or not to enumerate. For as long as we are in the flesh, we shall not lie when we say: “I am a poor man [I acknowledge that I am a miserable sinner], full of sin.” Rom. 7, 23: I see another law in my members, etc. For since private absolution originates in the Office of the Keys, it should not be despised [neglected], but greatly and highly esteemed [of the greatest worth], as [also] all other offices of the Christian Church.

Rose, I would not encourage you to jump to conclusions that what you were instructed was contrary to the Book of Concord. Take this thread for example, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that something isn't correct because of your understanding, when all the time it is.

Marv

 

[Protoevangel]

Leave it to a papist to stir up controversy, sorry guys!

Chotki,

Don't worry about it, we thrive on this stuff!

 

[revjpw]

Holy Absolution is directly tied to our Baptism. We are Baptized in the Name of the Triune God. So now the question begs to be asked: Can someone confess and be forgiven in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they have never been Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Qoheleth]

Sacrament, or Sacramentum means something to be kept sacred. The definition which includes "an earthly element" is certianly a valid definition, but it seems incomplete somehow, and certianly less than the church had intended since at the latest, the time of Tertullian. Now, another definition, from the Apology reads, a Sacrament is a rite which has the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added. This certianly seems to be a more rich, consistent, and less arbitrary definition. What is it that makes the Sacrament? Is it the earthly element that makes the Sacrament? or is it the Word, Command and Promise of Grace by God that makes the Sacrament? Anything commanded by God, with the Promise of Grace attached cannot be less than a Sacrament, whatever label you want to put on it. Confession/Absolution certianly is not but a "rite", rites can be changed. Like the very definition of sacramentum suggests, Confession/Absolution is something to be kept sacred.

Said better than I ever could. Thank you.

Q

 

[Qoheleth]

Now we can thrash about and say the Confessions list three, but SemStudent gave the answer to it already. The two Sacraments are:

Well, does it list Private Absolution as a Sacrament, specifically or not??

The difficulty has come from linking Private Confession to Absolution and then trying to use the statements that Absolution is a Sacrament to "prove" that Private Confession is a Sacrament

That is your own personal conclusion and not that of our Confessions.

I don't believe there is anywhere in the Confessions that it would be stated that Private Confession definitely is a Sacrament though we can certainly change the definition of a Sacrament to include Private Confession.

ooops...see below

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )

Now how did every Lutheran synod come to the same conclusion from Scripture and the Bible? I would say it must be because it is pretty clear, so let us not muddy the waters now.

And Private Absolution was held and made use of as a Sacrament in the church for several hundred years before falling into disuse. Who then began to muddy the waters?

Even in the Lutheran church, heterodox teaching and practice is present.

SemStudent was in no way incorrect in his position yet he was attacked for holding the clearly orthodox Lutheran position

By which standard, yours or the Confessions??

Q

 

[Qoheleth]

Holy Absolution is directly tied to our Baptism. We are Baptized in the Name of the Triune God. So now the question begs to be asked: Can someone confess and be forgiven in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they have never been Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

And Holy Communion is directly tied to Baptism also. The implications of this is manifold.

Q

 

[Protoevangel]

Holy Absolution is directly tied to our Baptism. We are Baptized in the Name of the Triune God. So now the question begs to be asked: Can someone confess and be forgiven in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they have never been Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

Well, Scripture never suggests that Jesus had everyone Baptized before He forgave them. Also, when Jesus breathed on the Apostles the Holy Spirit, He told them, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them" "Any" means any. It is this very offering of Grace that brought many to faith. Were we not reconciled to God, through the death of His Son, while we were still His enemy? (Rom 5:10)