• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Lutheran doctrine

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Luther taught that we shouldn't ask them to intercede for us. How does that differ from praying to them?
Do you have a quote of him teaching that, and a date of when he said it? Luther took back a lot of things he taught earlier.
 
Upvote 0

theseed

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
6,026
132
Clarksville, TN
Visit site
✟53,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
katieb2005 said:
I'm Baptist, can someone explain some basic Lutheran doctrine to me because im considering going to a Lutheran college
I'm Baptist, and I went to a Baptist college (loosely), but they allowed academic freedom which made it easy for all types of Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
orthedoxy said:
Here is a link showing Luther praying to mary.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM
But you will notice that all the references of praying to her are well before 1530. To this day, Lutherans don't have a problem with honoring Mary, but I had never heard of a Lutheran praying to Mary and the Saints before. It's even condemned in the Augsburg confessions.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article XXI: Of the Worship of the Saints.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. 2] For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. 3] He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2, 1: 4] If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. 6] There is, however, disagreement on certain Abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; 7] although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. 8] For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. 9] But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.
[/font]
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
orthedoxy said:
I don't think Lutherans believe everything Luther taught. For example most Lutherans don’t believe in the will being in bondage, or the books of James and Hebrew shouldn’t belong in the Bible.
Any Lutheran who does't believe in the bondage of will is not in line with the teachings of their church. Luther considered that James and Revelations may not be inspired, but his contemporaries talked him out of that line of thought.

No, Lutherans don't hold everything Luther taught but they hold to the Ausgburg confession, and give his opinion great weight.
 
Upvote 0

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
orthedoxy said:
I don't think Lutherans believe everything Luther taught. For example most Lutherans don’t believe in the will being in bondage, or the books of James and Hebrew shouldn’t belong in the Bible.

Actually, the books were the Epistle of St. James and the Epistle of St. Jude. We see this from reading the prefaces that he wrote:

Preface to the Epistle of St. James; Martin Luther

I think highly of the epistle of James and regard it as valuable although it was rejected in early days. It does not expound human doctrines, but lays much emphasis on God's law. Yet, to give my own opinion without prejudice to that of anyone else, I do not hold it to be of apostolic authorship, for the following reasons: Firstly, because, in direct oppostion to St. Paul and all the rest of the Bible, it ascribes justification to works, and declares that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered up hi son. St. Paul, on the contrary, in Romans 4:3, teaches that Abraham was justified without works, by his faith alone, the proof being in Genesis 15:6, which was before he sacrificed his son.....This defect proves that the epistle is not of apostolic provenance.
Secondly, because, in the whole length of its teaching, not once does it give Christians any instruction or reminder of the passion, resurrection, or spirit of Christ......
The epistle of James, however, only drives you to the law and its works. He mixes one thing with another to such an extent that I suspect some good and pious man assembled a few things said by disciples of the apostles, and then put them down in black and white; or perhaps the epistle was written by someone else who made notes of a sermon of his. He calls the Law a law of freedom, although St. Paul calls it a law of slavery, wrath, death, and sin.......


...I therefore refuse him a place among the writers of the true canon of my Bible; but I would not prevent anyone placing him or raising him where he likes, for the epistle contains many excellent passages...
Preface to the epistle of St. Jude; Martin Luther

No one can deny that this epistle is an excerpt from, or copy of, the second epistle of St. Peter, for all he says is nearly the same over again. Moreover, he speaks of the apostles as would a disciple of a much later date. he quotes words and events which are found nowhere in Scripture, and which moved the fathers to reject this epistle from the canon. Moreover, the apostle Jude did not go into Greek-speaking lands, but into Persia; and it is said that he could not write Greek. Hence, although I value the book, yet it is not essential to reckon it amongthe canonical book that lay the foundation of faith.
 
Upvote 0

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Phoebe said:
You're probably correct on that.

Have you read much of Pagan Servitude of the Church? I'm just getting started on it. I'm still reading about Communion. (Sacrament of the Altar)
That is one of his best works!!! I like it a lot.
 
Upvote 0

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
katieb2005 said:
how do lutherans differ from catholics?
Now since I have nothing better to do, and I just drank a twenty ounce Sprite, I will write my discertation.

First and foremost, we differ from Roman Christians because unlike them, the Edict of Worms calls us heretics, and are outside the Church. Lets find out why...

Basically because Martin Luther did not recant. "I will not and cannot recant, to go against conscience is neither safe nor sane. Here I stand I can do no other" (now this is all basically Jamesified, Luther didn't say those exact words but pretty darn close.) This failure to recant his writings, most noteably the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, Freedom of a Christian Man, 95 Theses, created what was known as the 'Edict of Worms' wherein, Luther and all those that listened to him were classified as flamming heretics.

You can find out deeper reasons by actually reading the "Babylonian Captivity of the Church" (Pagan Servitude of the Church). Here he teaches that there is not seven sacraments, as is still the case in the Roman Church of today, but only two, as instituded by Jesus the Christ of God. Not only did he go against Church teaching of seven Sacraments but he challenged the Dogma of Transubstantiation championed by St. Thomas Aquinas.

Oddly enough, he was trying to clean up the church, and did not intend to separate. To this day the Lutheran Church still hasn't seperated from the Roman Catholic Church!!! Luther actually pre-Worms was an avid Papist.

Yet, in the end, Lutherans were cast away from the Church of Rome, by Pope Leo X. So today we stand apart from the church in quite a few ways, but the main reason we are not Roman Christians is because our leader was a "Heretic".





(No harm is ment by this post to anyone, I view the Church of Rome in high regards now, but back in the 1500's its a different story. That would be a fun thread to discuss in of itself!!)
 
Upvote 0

orthedoxy

Lusavorchagan
Dec 15, 2003
533
17
pasadena california
✟764.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Phoebe here’s what Luther said regarding Jews.

"Burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; destroy their houses; confiscate their ready money; take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; forbid their holding any religious services under penalty of death; and if that does not help matters, hunt them out of the country like mad dogs" ("Tracts against Jews," 1543).

Here is some more of Luther quote regarding scripture.
In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and good for you to know, even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to them; for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.
(Jacobs, ibid., 443-444)
Lutherans believe in freewill here is a link from answers in action(Lutheran site) who are very much anti Calvinist. Therfore not all Luterans believe like Luther.
Also Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1521 so he prayed to Mary while he was a protestant.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
orthedoxy said:
Phoebe here’s what Luther said regarding Jews.

"Burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; destroy their houses; confiscate their ready money; take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; forbid their holding any religious services under penalty of death; and if that does not help matters, hunt them out of the country like mad dogs" ("Tracts against Jews," 1543).
A couple things.
1.) Quoting one sentence from Luther most likely completely takes it out of the context and changes the meaning of the sentence.
2.) If you have read any of Luther's works, you will see that he often writes in such a way to make points.
3.) No one denys that he did make some anti-semetic statements.


Here is some more of Luther quote regarding scripture.
In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and good for you to know, even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to them; for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.
(Jacobs, ibid., 443-444)
Later in his life Luther changed his mind on the subject. I'm on my way out, but I'll find the quote later.


Lutherans believe in freewill here is a link from answers in action(Lutheran site) who are very much anti Calvinist. Therfore not all Luterans believe like Luther.
Lutherans believe in predestination and freewill. We are much closer to Calvinism than Arminianism.

Quote:7. GOD'S ELECTION OF GRACE

We confess that those in this life who, through the Gospel, have been called, enlightened,
sanctified, and preserved in the true faith, have from eternity been elected according to
God's unmerited love to this adoption as His children, and have been chosen in Christ
"before the creation of the world" to be heirs of everlasting life. Therefore Christians can
and should be sure of their salvation, since God's promise is steadfast and His gracious
election to salvation stands firm. We reject the teaching that there is an eternal election to
damnation (double predestination) and that the offer of salvation which God makes
through the Gospel is not earnestly intended for all people. In faith we accept the teaching
of Scripture that those who are saved are saved by the grace of God alone, and that those
who are lost are lost because of their own unbelief and hardness of heart. See Rom. 8:26-
39, Eph. 1:3-6, 2 Thes. 2:13-14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 1:12, Ezek. 33:11, Hos. 13:9.
http://www.evluthsyn.org/

Quote:10. We teach that conversion consists in this, that a man, having learned from the Law of God that he is a lost and condemned sinner, is brought to faith in the Gospel, which offers him forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation for the sake of Christ's vicarious satisfaction, Acts 11:21; Luke 24:46, 47; Acts 26:18.

11. All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; -- Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Pet, 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6.

12. On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude, his right self-determination, his lesser guilt or less evil conduct as compared with others, his refraining from willful resistance, or anything else whereby man's conversion and salvation is taken out of the gracious hands of God and made to depend on what man does or leaves undone. For this refraining from willful resistance or from any kind of resistance is also solely a work of grace, which "changes unwilling into willing men," Ezek. 36:26; Phil. 2:13. We reject also the doctrine that man is able to decide for conversion through "powers imparted by grace," since this doctrine presupposes that before conversion man still possesses spiritual powers by which he can make the right use of such "powers imparted by grace."

13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.

14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.

15. Our refusal to go beyond what is revealed in these two Scriptural truths is not "masked Calvinism" ("Crypto- Calvinism") but precisely the Scriptural teaching of the Lutheran Church as it is presented in detail in the Formula of Concord (Triglot, p. 1081, paragraphs 57-59, 60b, 62, 63; M. p. 716f.): "That one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again, etc. -- in these and similar questions Paul fixes a certain limit to us how far we should go, namely, that in the one part we should recognize God's judgment. For they are well-deserved penalties of sins when God so punished a land or nation for despising His Word that the punishment extends also to their posterity, as is to be seen in the Jews. And thereby God in some lands and persons exhibits His severity to those that are His in order to indicate what we all would have well deserved and would be worthy and worth, since we act wickedly in opposition to God's Word and often grieve the Holy Ghost sorely; in order that we may live in the fear of God and acknowledge and praise God's goodness, to the exclusion of, and contrary to, our merit in and with us, to whom He gives His Word and with whom He leaves it and whom He does not harden and reject...And this His righteous, well-deserved judgment He displays in some countries, nations and persons in order that, when we are placed alongside of them and compared with them (quam simillimi illis deprehensi, i.e., and found to be most similar to them), we may learn the more diligently to recognize and praise God's pure, unmerited grace in the vessels of mercy...When we proceed thus far in this article, we remain on the right way, as it is written, Hos. 13:9: `O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help.' However, as regards these things in this disputation which would soar too high and beyond these limits, we should with Paul place the finger upon our lips and remember and say, Rom. 9:20: `O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'" The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man's heart (a "psychological" mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why "one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again," we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life. 1 Cor. 13:12.

16. Calvinists solve this mystery, which God has not revealed in His Word, by denying the universality of grace; synergists, by denying that salvation is by grace alone. Both solutions are utterly vicious, since they contradict Scripture and since every poor sinner stands in need of, and must cling to, both the unrestricted universal grace and the unrestricted "by grace alone," lest he despair and perish.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=569


Also Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1521 so he prayed to Mary while he was a protestant.
So? As I quoted above, he later came to believe that it was wrong to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phoebe
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.