Lutheran doctrine

[katieb2005]

I'm Baptist, can someone explain some basic Lutheran doctrine to me because im considering going to a Lutheran college

 

[Lotar]

This is a very basic explaination
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/smallcatechism.pdf

Are there any specific explainations you want?

 

[katieb2005]

how do lutherans differ from catholics?

 

[Lotar]

how do lutherans differ from catholics?

Where to start?

Faith alone and scripture alone. Those would be the major two.
No praying to or venerating the saints or Mary.

The Lutheran Church was one of the original churches to come out of the Reformation, started by Martin Luther, hense Lutheran.

 

[Phoebe]

Here's another site.
www.elca.org

 

[ByzantineDixie]

how do lutherans differ from catholics?

I grew up Catholic and became a Lutheran once I married. I used to joke to my Catholic family that all I had to give up was Mary and the Pope...but there are some other differences. Here are just a few...

1) The most significant in my view is "salvation by grace through faith". When I was growing up Catholic I never knew if I would be "good enough" to get to heaven. As a Lutheran I now understand that it isn't about my "goodness"...its about God's "goodness", mercy and grace. I am going to heaven!
2) While Lutherans believe in the "Real Presence" during communion, we do not believe in transubstantiation.
3) Lutherans have only maintained 2 of the seven sacraments, Baptism and Holy Communion.
4) We do not pray to the saints asking for their intercession (the temple curtain was torn upon Christ's sacrifice...we have a direct conduit to God through Jesus). We do not pray for the dead.
5) No mortal sins or venial sins. All sin is sin and offends God.
6) No Holy Days of Obligation...no sin if you miss mass on Sunday...no requirement for private confession although private confession with the pastor is available if you request it.
7) As Lotar stated...sola scriptura. Lutherans take all doctrine from Scripture and follow systematic rules for interpreting scripture. We do not rely on tradition. Do you know that I was a Catholic from birth until after college and never, ever was instructed to read the Bible?

I think you would enjoy the challenge a Lutheran college would offer. It's good to understand where the other guy is coming from...God's best to you as you make your decision about school.

Rose

 

[sola fide]

Would it be fair to say that Melancthon was more of the forerunner of the Lutheran church than Luther himself? Just curious.

Grace.

 

[JVAC]

I grew up Catholic and became a Lutheran once I married. I used to joke to my Catholic family that all I had to give up was Mary and the Pope...but there are some other differences. Here are just a few...

1) The most significant in my view is "salvation by grace through faith". When I was growing up Catholic I never knew if I would be "good enough" to get to heaven. As a Lutheran I now understand that it isn't about my "goodness"...its about God's "goodness", mercy and grace. I am going to heaven!
2) While Lutherans believe in the "Real Presence" during communion, we do not believe in transubstantiation.
3) Lutherans have only maintained 2 of the seven sacraments, Baptism and Holy Communion.
4) We do not pray to the saints asking for their intercession (the temple curtain was torn upon Christ's sacrifice...we have a direct conduit to God through Jesus). We do not pray for the dead.
5) No mortal sins or venial sins. All sin is sin and offends God.
6) No Holy Days of Obligation...no sin if you miss mass on Sunday...no requirement for private confession although private confession with the pastor is available if you request it.
7) As Lotar stated...sola scriptura. Lutherans take all doctrine from Scripture and follow systematic rules for interpreting scripture. We do not rely on tradition. Do you know that I was a Catholic from birth until after college and never, ever was instructed to read the Bible?

I think you would enjoy the challenge a Lutheran college would offer. It's good to understand where the other guy is coming from...God's best to you as you make your decision about school.

Rose

Since 1999 Lutherans and Catholics have been in total agreement with regards to #1. In #2 Lutherans don't enforce it, yet most don't believe it. With regards to #3 Luther did taught that it was good to ask the saints/mary to pray for us (Just as we ask the living to pray for us), but we must mind that we and all must ultamately answer to the Godhead.

Ultimately one must refer to the Book of Concord to get a real good grasp on Lutheranism. Yet, we Lutherans are "Heretics" living apart from the true Church with respect to the view of the Church of Rome. I'll write further into this, when I get some time.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Would it be fair to say that Melancthon was more of the forerunner of the Lutheran church than Luther himself? Just curious.

Grace.

I look forward to being further educated regarding this question. Deep in the recesses of my aging mind I recall someone once making a comment like "Lutherans subscribing to the unaltered Augsburg confessions are more aligned with Luther and those subscribing to the altered Augsburg confessions are more aligned with Melancthon."

LCMS and ELCA (according to their website) and I imagine WELS, all subscribe to the Unaltered Augsburg Confessions.

Rose

 

[Lotar]

Since 1999 Lutherans and Catholics have been in total agreement with regards to #1. In #2 Lutherans don't enforce it, yet most don't believe it. With regards to #3 Luther did taught that it was good to ask the saints/mary to pray for us (Just as we ask the living to pray for us), but we must mind that we and all must ultamately answer to the Godhead.

Ultimately one must refer to the Book of Concord to get a real good grasp on Lutheranism. Yet, we Lutherans are "Heretics" living apart from the true Church with respect to the view of the Church of Rome. I'll write further into this, when I get some time.

Actually, we aren't in agreement about #1. We both hold grace alone, but they hold faith + works.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Since 1999 Lutherans and Catholics have been in total agreement with regards to #1. In #2 Lutherans don't enforce it, yet most don't believe it. With regards to #3 Luther did taught that it was good to ask the saints/mary to pray for us (Just as we ask the living to pray for us), but we must mind that we and all must ultamately answer to the Godhead.

Ultimately one must refer to the Book of Concord to get a real good grasp on Lutheranism. Yet, we Lutherans are "Heretics" living apart from the true Church with respect to the view of the Church of Rome. I'll write further into this, when I get some time.

You know, I thought there was a statement by the Catholic church regarding salvation by grace...I just didn't hear much after that. Thanks for correcting me.

I noted the discussion on transubstantiation in the communion thread. I had not heard that Luther held this position. In fact, the Lutheran doctrine books (Mueller, Kolb, Koehler) I have speak vehemently against transubstantiation, as well as consubstantiation. I am very interested in reading the Luther work referenced in that thread...what was that...Babylon something or other?

I'll also check that praying to the saints thing out, too. As you may know, Luther may have said it was good...in practice this is not at all encouraged.

Now you know that I am gonna have some fun with this new information...a cleverly posed "But didn't Luther say....?" question will cause some scrambling for the texts at our next Wednesday evening teaching!

Rose

 

[Lotar]

Just to make it clear, there hasn't really been much of a change in Catholic doctrine on this subject.

Lutheran View
Faith => works + salvation

Catholic View
Faith + works => Salvation


The Catholic church agreed with the Lutheran church that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith. Which is not any change from their position. We believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. If the document had alone after faith, then we would have been in agreement. That document was a step in the right direction, but neither sides position changed.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

The Catholic church agreed with the Lutheran church that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith. Which is not any change from their position. We believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. If the document had alone after faith, then we would have been in agreement. That document was a step in the right direction, but neither sides position changed.

Ahhh...thanks for illustrating the distinction. I remember now reading the press release on this and then being surprised why I hadn't heard more buzz.

Rose

 

[JVAC]

Luther's Rose;

The Babylonian Captivity (Pagan Servitude of the Church), is the document that Luther spent quite a bit of time and energy on his possition. Here as you might have seen from my last posts, he clearly argues for freedom of a Christian. Even though it can be argued that Luther tried to destroy the doctrine.

In regards to praying to Saints to pray for us, it is not a very common practice in the Lutheran Church of today. Luther wrote that we should only pray to them knowing that we needn't thier help, but that we ask them, as brothers/sisters in Christ, just as we ask those alive. It is a good idea not to teach it though, for some can be misled by it, but if you have a good understanding of your Baptismal Freedom then feel free to do it. I sometimes pray the Rosary, which has petitions to Mary, and it works well for me.

That Wednessday group sounds very fun!!!

 

[Lotar]

Try reading RC Sproul's book, Faith Alone, he spends a couple of chapters explaining how Catholics haven't changed their view, that the document just skirts the real issue, the one we disagree with. Catholics have always believed in grace alone, though in quite a different way than we do. We use the same words but they have different meaning. In the same way, they have always believed that faith is part of salvation, but not alone.

 

[JVAC]

Yeah, I remeber the whole argument of Luther adding "alone" even though there was no presence of the word "sola". He justified it, in his eyes, by saying the text implies it. (I worded it this way to maintain a little neutrality)

 

[Lotar]

Yeah, I remeber the whole argument of Luther adding "alone" even though there was no presence of the word "sola". He justified it, in his eyes, by saying the text implies it. (I worded it this way to maintain a little neutrality)

It's not an arguement about Luther's translation It's about the whole idea of faith alone. We believe we are saved through faith, they believe we are saved through faith and works, we both believe we are saved by grace alone. So signing a document that says we both believe we are saved by grace alone through faith, means absolutely nothing. Neither of us has changed our positions.

BTW, on Luther's translation, there were something like 4 or 5 authorized Catholic translations in other languages that added the "alone," well before Luther. It wasn't like he just descided to start adding things to the bible. Plus, in context, it doesn't change the meaning.

 

[Lotar]

Luther's Rose;

The Babylonian Captivity (Pagan Servitude of the Church), is the document that Luther spent quite a bit of time and energy on his possition. Here as you might have seen from my last posts, he clearly argues for freedom of a Christian. Even though it can be argued that Luther tried to destroy the doctrine.

In regards to praying to Saints to pray for us, it is not a very common practice in the Lutheran Church of today. Luther wrote that we should only pray to them knowing that we needn't thier help, but that we ask them, as brothers/sisters in Christ, just as we ask those alive. It is a good idea not to teach it though, for some can be misled by it, but if you have a good understanding of your Baptismal Freedom then feel free to do it. I sometimes pray the Rosary, which has petitions to Mary, and it works well for me.

That Wednessday group sounds very fun!!!

Does the ELCA alow prayer to saints? The LCMS does not.

It is not to be advised or tolerated that one should call upon the departed saints to intercede for him or should teach others to do so, but rather to be condemned and people are to be taught to avoid it. Therefore I, too, shall not advise it and burden my conscience with other peoples' iniquities. It was exceedingly bitter for me to tear myself away from worship of saints, for I was completely steeped and drowned in it. But the light of the Gospel is now so clear that henceforth no on has any excuse if he remains in darkness.
-Martin Luther

 

[Phoebe]

The ELCA does not promote praying through Mary or the saints. Neither have I actually heard the church saying we aren't to do this.

I am more interested in learning good meditation practices during prayer.

 

[JVAC]

Luther, preached against the worship of saints, and but he admonished people that they could pray to them, just as they ask the saints living to pray for them. We musn't worship them, but we may ask them to pray for us. Also, it is mostly not taught, because people don't take the time to figure out the difference about praying to a Saint, vs. praying to God. Such as, you don't ask saints to grant you things, just as you don't go to a fellow church member and say "give me healing". You ask them to pray to the Father on your behalf, just as you would sign up for prayer concerns.