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Luther and the Apocrypha

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SolomonVII

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Luthers Rose said:
Hey Soloman!

I know you are quoting Wolseley's work and you may not have this information but I am interested in source material for the following claims:

1) It was Luther's rejection of the doctrine of purgatory which caused him to reject 2nd Maccabees.

2) Because Luther rejected 2nd Maccabees he automatically had to reject the rest of the seven OT books from the Septuagint.

3) Phillip Melancthon told Luther to stop "tossing books at the rate he was going".

All three of these claims are new to me and I would like to examine the reference material which makes these claims. If you do not know, are you in a position to contact Wolseley? Many thanks!

Peace

Rose
I'm not sure if Wolseley is even posting here much anymore. I do remember someone recommending him once a a contact for good information on historical things, so I have a hunch that the information is proabably good.
I have never really even participated on any threads that he has been on, and the information is posted on a sticky in OBOB.
You could PM him perhaps?
 
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ByzantineDixie

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OK...thanks. I'll PM him. I am traveling today but I will address the first two of these points with reference materials I have at home when I get there...tonight or tomorrow. The third one involving Melancthon--well, I don't have any references saying Melancthon didn't tell Luther to stop tossing out books of the bible but since Luther's bible included the Apocrypha and he never tossed even one single book out of the bible, it's safe to say Phil and Marty never had such a conversation. Nonetheless, I will also provide some material on Luther's stance on James as well as on his use of the word "alone" (alein, auf Deutsch). Stay tuned.

Peace

Rose
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Regarding Luther’s opinion on Maccabees (to demonstrate it was not the doctrine of purgatory which caused him to segregate the Apocrypha from the rest of the OT)…



I will post the entire preface to both 1 and 2 Maccabees from Luther’s 1534 German Bible. As you can see he extols the value of 1 Maccabees and identifies some problems 2 Maccabees. Not once is the doctrine of purgatory mentioned nor called upon with regard to his opinion about the books.

Preface to the First Book of Maccabees
153358

This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible.59 Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel.60 For the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy in that chapter, about the abomination and misfortune which was going to befall the people of Israel, is here described—namely, Antiochus Epiphanes—and in much the same way that Daniel [11:29–35] speaks of it: a little help and great persecution by the Gentiles and by false Jews, which is what took place at the time of the Maccabees. This is why the book is good for us Christians to read and to know.

In the first place, since Antiochus is regarded as a figure or image of the Antichrist who perpetrated the abomination and desolation of the worship of God in Jerusalem and in Judea not long before the birth and first coming of Christ, we learn from this to recognize the real Antichrist who is to devastate Christendom and destroy the worship of God [sometime] before the second and final coming of Christ. Therefore we should not be terrified when we experience such things and see them happening before our very eyes. Rather, be the chaos ever so great, and the devil as angry as he knows how, we should hold fast to this and take comfort in it, that we and all Christendom must nevertheless be sustained and finally saved.

For we too see the help, though small and slight, which God the Almighty has begun to grant us. The dear and holy gospel is the sword with which God’s own can nevertheless valiantly attack the Antichrist of our day and actually accomplish something—even though it cost much suffering and bloodshed—just as God aided his people with the sword of the Maccabees in that day. Although it did not happen without persecution and great heartache, they nevertheless cleansed the temple, restored the worship of God [4:36–61], and brought the people together again under their former government. Today, in this same way, the gospel is sweeping out idolatry—as Christ says, that his angels will purge out of his kingdom all causes of offense [Matt. 13:41]—and is bringing the real Christians together again into the old true Christian faith and unto genuine good works and worship of God.

In the second place we should take heart that God helped those people not only against Antiochus and the Gentiles but also against the traitorous and disloyal Jews who had gone over to the Gentiles and were helping to persecute, kill, and torment their own people and brethren. We should be sure of [God’s help] and remain unafraid even when false Christians and rabble-rousers—who have now become our betrayers—turn against us and plague and harm us as much as, if not more than, our Antiochus or Antichrist. For Daniel [11:32–34] has said it, and for our comfort proclaimed it, that things must happen this way; that the children of our people would deal treacherously with us and blithely help to persecute us. Therefore we shall not fare much better than those pious children of Israel did under their Antiochus or Antichrist, at the hands of their false brethren.

However those same enemies and traitors are amply punished by God at the end; their tyranny and treachery does not go undetected. So with a glad eye and good courage we may face our Antichrist, tyrants, and rabble-rousers, and endure their abuse, confident that they will not go on very long, much less bring matters to the point they intend, that instead (like Antiochus and those other traitors) they will soon be getting their due reward. Indeed a good deal of that punishment has already begun and is daily increasing. Hardened and blinded, though, they remain unmoved by all this. However that makes no difference to us: they will get it just as those others did. Since they do not want it any other way, may God the Almighty grant that it be done quickly and soon, that his name be hallowed, his kingdom advanced, and all saddened hearts, now held captive in the kingdom of the devil and of the Antichrist, be comforted. Amen.

Preface to the Second Book of Maccabees
153461

This book is called, and is supposed to be, the second book of Maccabees, as the title indicates. Yet this cannot be true, because it reports several incidents that happened before those reported in the first book, and it does not proceed any further than Judas Maccabaeus, that is, chapter 7 of the first book. It would be better to call this the first instead of the second book, unless one were to call it simply a second book and not the second book of Maccabees—another or different, certainly, but not second.62 But we include it anyway, for the sake of the good story of the seven Maccabean martyrs and their mother, and other things as well.

It appears, however, that the book has no single author, but was pieced together out of many books.63 It also presents a knotty problem in chapter 14[:41–46] where Razis commits suicide, something which also troubles St. Augustine and the ancient fathers. Such an example is good for nothing and should not be praised, even though it may be tolerated and perhaps explained. So also in chapter 164 this book describes the death of Antiochus quite differently than does First Maccabees [6:1–16].

To sum up: just as it is proper for the first book to be included among the sacred Scriptures, so it is proper that this second book should be thrown out, even though it contains some good things. However the whole thing is left and referred to the pious reader to judge and to decide.

58 On the date cf. WA, DB 2, 531, and Reu, Luther’s German Bible, p. 211, over against EA 63, 104.
59 Except for some parts of I Esdras, none of the Apocrypha mentioned by Luther is found in the Hebrew Bible. Except for II Esdras all of them are found, however, in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Oesterley, An Introduction to the Books of the Apocrypha, p. 6.
60 See Luther’s interpretation of Daniel 11 in his Preface to Daniel in this volume, pp. 306–313.
61 On the date cf. WA, DB 2, 547 and Reu, Luther’s German Bible, p. 211, over against EA 63, 106.
62 Latin: Alium vel alienum scilicet, non secundum. James Moffatt quotes this judgment of Luther, and agrees with it, “II Maccabees is not a sequel to I Maccabees.” Charles, op. cit., I, 125.
63 Moffatt again quotes and corroborates Luther’s statement concerning the composite nature of the text. Ibid., p. 129.
64 II Maccabees 1:13–16; cf. 9:1–28.
[1]Luther, M. (1999, c1960). Vol. 35: Luther's works, vol. 35 : Word and Sacrament I (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works. Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

All other books of the Apocrypha contain explanations in their prefaces. For the sake of brevity, I will not publish them here unless you request a specific book. Since these prefaces are the alpha sources, we can confidently see that for Luther the doctrine of purgatory was not the reason 2 Maccabees was listed in the Apocrypha. Further, it appears since Luther favored 1 Maccabees the division of the Apocrypha from the OT was really a matter related to the scriptures as seen by the Jews of Palestine vs. the scriptures embraced by the Jews of the Diaspora.

Regarding “Martin Luther tossing books out of the Bible”…

Luther’s Translation included all of the Apocrypha. For confirmation of this…please see this Catholic Apologetics website.

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/martin_luthers__apocrypha.htm

Regarding the use of the word “alone”…

Reference: An Open Letter on Translating, Dr. Martin Luther

For you and our people, however, I shall show why I used the word “sola” - even though in Romans 3 it wasn’t “sola” I used but “solum” or “tantum”. That is how closely those [CF unacceptable word deleted--hereafter identified as CFUWD] have looked at my text! However, I have used “sola fides” in other places, and I want to use both “solum” and “sola”. I have continually tried translating in a pure and accurate German. It has happened that I have sometimes searched and inquired about a single word for three or four weeks. Sometimes I have not found it even then. I have worked Meister Philip and Aurogallus so hard in translating Job, sometimes barely translating 3 lines after four days. …

I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in either Greek or Latin text - the [CFUWD] did not have to teach me that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these [CFUWD] stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text - if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there. I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed, the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word “not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no money, but only (allein) grain”; I have only eaten and not yet drunk”; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a vast number of such every-day cases. In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German tongue to add “allein” in order that “nicht” or “kein” may be clearer and more complete. To be sure, I can also say “The farmer brings grain and no (kein) money, but the words “kein money” do not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, “the farmer brings allein grain and kein money.” Here the word “allein” helps the word “kein” so much that it becomes a clear and complete German expression. We do not have to ask about the literal Latin or how we are to speak German - as these [CFUWD] do. Rather we must ask the mother in the home, the children on the street, the common person in the market about this. We must be guided by their tongue, the manner of their speech, and do our translating accordingly. Then they will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to them.


For instance, Christ says: Ex abundatia cordis os loquitur. If I am to follow these [CFUWD], they will lay the original before me literally and translate it as: “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” Is that speaking with a German tongue? What German could understand something like that? What is this “abundance of the heart?” No German can say that; unless, of course, he was trying to say that someone was altogether too magnanimous, or too courageous, though even that would not yet be correct, as “abundance of the heart” is not German, not any more than “abundance of the house, “abundance of the stove” or “abundance of the bench” is German. But the mother in the home and the common man say this: “What fills the heart overflows the mouth.” That is speaking with the proper German tongue of the kind I have tried for, although unfortunately not always successfully. The literal Latin is a great barrier to speaking proper German.


Regarding Luther on James…

Yes, Luther had a lower opinion of James but he justified his opinion based on the understandings of the early church. Despite his opinion, however, note he never discarded the book AND he encourages the reader to include and extol James as the reader pleases. Luther does not make a claim here for the Church at large.

Preface to the Epistles of St. James
1546 (1522)

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients,47 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle;48 and my reasons follow.

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac [2:21]; though in Romans 4[:2–22] St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15[:6]. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation49 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works [Jas. 2:23] of Moses’ statement in Genesis 15[:6]. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham’s faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15[:27], “You shall bear witness to me.” All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3[:21]; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2[:2]. Whatever does not teach Christ is not yet50 apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.

But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and to its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a “law of liberty” [1:25], though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin.51

Moreover he cites the sayings of St. Peter [in 5:20]: “Love covers a multitude of sins” [I Pet. 4:8], and again [in 4:10], “Humble yourselves under the hand of God” [I Pet. 5:6]; also the saying of St. Paul in Galatians 5[:17], “The Spirit lusteth against envy.”52 And yet, in point of time, St. James was put to death by Herod [Acts 12:2] in Jerusalem, before St. Peter.53 So it seems that [this author] came long after St. Peter and St. Paul.

In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task.54 He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore55 I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him.

47 In the earliest general history of the church, Eusebius: The Ecclesiastical History (II, xxiii, 25), the author (died ca. 339) writes, “Such is the story of James, whose is said to be the first of the Epistles called Catholic. It is to be observed that its authenticity is denied, since few of the ancients quote it, as is also the case with the Epistle called Jude’s.” Lake, op. cit, I, 179. Eusebius also includes both epistles in his list of “Disputed Books” (History, III, xxiv, 3). Lake, op. cit., I, 257. Cf. the statement by Jerome (d. 420) in his Liber de Viris Illustribus (II) concerning the pseudonymity ascribed to the epistle of James and its rather gradual attainment of authoritative status. Migne 23, 609.
48 Cf. p. 362, nn. 11, 12.
49 See p. 395, n. 46.
50 Noch nicht in editions prior to 1530 was simply nicht, WA, DB 7, 385, n. 29.
51 Cf. Rom. 3:20; 4:15; 5:13, 20; 6:15–22; 7:5–13; 8:2; I Cor. 15:56; Gal. 3:23–5:1.
52 This KJV rendering comes closest to Luther’s German, which is a literal rendering of the Vulgate of Jas. 4:5. Hass is Luther’s equivalent of the Latin invidiae again in Paul’s catalogue of works of the flesh, where the RSV translates the word in Gal. 5:21 as “envy.”
53 Luther overlooks the fact that the James to whom the book is traditionally ascribed is not the brother of John [Matt. 4:21] martyred by Herod [Acts 12:2], but the brother of the Lord [Matt. 13:55] who became head of the apostolic church at Jerusalem [Acts 15:13; Col. 1:19]. BG 7, 21, n. 2.
54 Editions prior to 1530 here added, “in spirit, thought, and words. He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture.” WA, DB 7, 386, nn. 14, 15.
55 Editions prior to 1530 read from this point, “Therefore, I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man (cf. the proverbial expression: Einer ist keiner. Wander [ed.], Sprichwörter-Lexikon, I, 784, ‘Einer, ’ No. 44) in worldly things; how, then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all the rest of Scripture?” WA, DB 7, 386, nn. 17–21.
[1]Luther, M. (1999, c1960). Vol. 35: Luther's works, vol. 35 : Word and Sacrament I (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works. Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

I apologize for the length of this response but I wanted to include as much authoritative reference material as I could lest it look like I was trying to make a claim for Dr. Luther or other noted Lutherans or take information out of context.

Peace

Rose
 
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Qoheleth

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TnR said:
Luther took out the Deuterocanon - there's no doubt about it.

You must have missed this. Rose is correct.

First thing to emphasize is that Luther did not remove the deuterocanonical books from the Bible...in fact the Martin Luther version of the German bible is still published today with the Apocrypha. There are even some Lutheran churches that include Apocryphal readings in their services.


Q
 
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SolomonVII

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[QUOTE-TnR] Luther took out the Deuterocanon - there's no doubt about it.[/QUOTE]

You must have missed this. Rose is correct.


First thing to emphasize is that Luther did not remove the deuterocanonical books from the Bible...in fact the Martin Luther version of the German bible is still published today with the Apocrypha. There are even some Lutheran churches that include Apocryphal readings in their services
.


Part of the misunderstanding her centers on the words being used. The implication behind the word 'Deuterocanonicals ', would be the idea that in these books lies a second canon. As Deuteronomy is a repeated law, and is fully accepted as Torah, to use the word Deuterocanicals is used to affirm that these books are sacred and canonical.

The word 'Apocrypha', on the other hand, is a term coined by Jerome, who like many in the Protestant tradition today, had a low opinion of these books, and would have preferred that they remain hidden, which is in fact the meaning of the word Apocrypha.

While to state that Luther threw out Deuterocanons from the Bible would bring the debate down to mainly rhetoric, it may be more correct to state that Luther did begin the debate as to what would be the ultimate status of these books.
Would these books be recognized as sacred, and inspired, and accepted as fully canonical?
Or were these books to be useful, and helpful advice on how to live, but not reliable enough to dictate doctrinal beliefs?
In a word, were these books to be regarded as Deuterocanical, or Apocrypha.

Lutherans and Anglicans were among the first denominations to begin the practice of sequestering these books, and setting them apart from the 'best' books of the Bible.

Luther's opinion certainly was not that of Jerome, who described many of the books as "crazy meanderings of a man whose senses have taken leave of him". His criticisms were never as severe as his contemporary, Carstadt, who found some of the works ridiculous and dangerous. Yet it would perhaps be historically correct to state that with Luther and his criticisms of certain books in the Bible, the process which would lead to the eventual sequestering, and eliminating of these books from many Bibles was initiated for our modern era.
 
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Tertiumquid

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solomon said:
Her is another quote from Wolseley that addresses the subject of the apocryphal writings (of which some books, by the way, did not make it into anybodies Bibles)




Luther also had a problem with the concept of "works", and wanted to throw out the Epistle of James as well ["faith without works is dead"], but his friend Philip Melanchthon convinced him that if he kept on tossing books at the rate he was going, he was going to end up with a pretty thin Bible.)


Not quite. I defy anyone to provide a reference on Melanchthon "convincing Luther" about this. Sitting on my desk is the definitive work on Luther's Bible- "Luther's German Bible: An Historical Presentation Together With a Collection of Sources" by M. Reu. The book is around 400 pages long, and covers virtually every aspect of Luther's Bible. I checked every reference to Melancthon. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

Catholic apologist Steve Ray also seems to indicate, Luther’s views on the canon were somehow curtailed by Melancthon. Ray says,

“When Martin Luther rejected “popes and councils” he also realized that the canon was again up for grabs. He didn’t like James as we know, but he also placed Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation at the back of the book, not with the inspired books. It was only later that Philipp Melanchthon convinced him to defer to long tradition and place the books back in the New Testament, back in the recognized order. How did Luther fail to recognize the self-authenticating writings?"

[Steve Ray, “New Testament Books: Self-authenticating? No Need for the Church to Close the Canon?”].

Ray would do well to provide further information to substantiate this claim that Melanchthon was the primary reason Luther put books “back in the New Testament.”

Regards,
James Swan
 
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SolomonVII

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Tertiumquid said:
...
Catholic apologist Steve Ray also seems to indicate, Luther’s views on the canon were somehow curtailed by Melancthon. Ray says,



[Steve Ray, “New Testament Books: Self-authenticating? No Need for the Church to Close the Canon?”].

Ray would do well to provide further information to substantiate this claim that Melanchthon was the primary reason Luther put books “back in the New Testament.”

Regards,
James Swan
The Catholic apologist site that Luther Rose provided quite definetely indicates that the Apolcrypha was not 'thrown out' of the Bible by Luther. That site also indicates that the apocrypha was thown out of no Bibles before 1613 Geneva bible, which is very similar to the 1599 date which I provided in another post.
Without any authoritative volume of history on Luther in front of me, my own impressions up to this point would be that Luther did not throw out any of the books of canon.
What he may have done,on the other hand, is argue against the inspired nature of several of the books of the accepted canon as worthy as a basis for doctrine. These would include the Apocryphal works, James, Hebrew and St Jude.
The so-far unsubstantiated question of Melancthon's influence aside, what therefore would be a fair assessment of Luther's influence on the history of the Apocrypha's rejection?

That is,
a) were the apocryphal writings first sequestered by Luther to an Apocryphal section, or was this the work of later Protestants?
and,
b) did Luther consider the Apocryphal writings (and the other aformentioned NT writings) somehow less inspired,and unworthy as a basis for dogma?

From what I have gathered so far, it is apparent that charges that Luther eliminated these texts from the Bible are more rhetorical than historically correct.
The question remains, though, as to what role Luther actually wanted these writings to play in the Christian faith.



edit to add: Ray's information seems to come from this source:
20. Patrick O Hare, The Facts About Luther (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, rev. ed., 1987, orig. Cincinnati, 1916), 202–203.
 
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Tertiumquid

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solomon said:
While to state that Luther threw out Deuterocanons from the Bible would bring the debate down to mainly rhetoric, it may be more correct to state that Luther did begin the debate as to what would be the ultimate status of these books.

No. There was a running debate among theologians throughout the centuries previous to Luther. Even at Trent, there was debate between Roman Catholic theologians about the apocrypha. Interestingly, some of the best theologians at Trent were against the apocrypha.

solomon said:
Luther's opinion certainly was not that of Jerome, who described many of the books as "crazy meanderings of a man whose senses have taken leave of him". His criticisms were never as severe as his contemporary, Carstadt, who found some of the works ridiculous and dangerous.

Interestingly, the great 16th century Roman Catholic Cardinal Cajetan also questioned the authenticity of certain Biblical books. In 1532, Cajetan wrote his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament. In this work, Cajetan leaves out the entirety of the Apocrypha since he did not consider it to be Canonical. Cajetan said,

“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage."

solomon said:
Yet it would perhaps be historically correct to state that with Luther and his criticisms of certain books in the Bible, the process which would lead to the eventual sequestering, and eliminating of these books from many Bibles was initiated for our modern era.

Well, I haven't heard this one before. Now Luther is responsible for the entire Apocrypha being deleted from later Protestant Bibles! This does injustice to Luther in my opinion. The editors of Luther’s Works explain, “In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’"

Your view is far too simple. What of Erasmus? Surely his impact on Biblical scholarship cannot be denied. Secondly, while Luther may have impacted the Protestant world, one finds that others in the Reformation did not follow Luther in his every belief. That's why the Reformed has differences from Luther. They didn't eventually drop the apocrypha becasue of Luther's work. One finds a great many scholars in the Reformed tradition. Calvin for instance was a master of church history. Beza likewise was a gifted historian and theologian.

Regards,
James Swan
 
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Tertiumquid

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solomon said:
The Catholic apologist site that Luther Rose provided quite definetely indicates that the Apolcrypha was not 'thrown out' of the Bible by Luther. That site also indicates that the apocrypha was thown out of no Bibles before 1613 Geneva bible, which is very similar to the 1599 date which I provided in another post.

At least then we can agree that Steve Ray does not know what he's talking about. Ray claims also,

“Martin Luther understood the place of the Church in establishing the canon... He realized that if he could jettison the Church, or at least redefine it as “invisible” and “intangible”, he was free to reevaluate and regulate the content of the canon for himself. He actually began to function as his own pope and council. If it weren’t for his theologian Philip Melanchthon, Protestants would no longer consider James, Revelation, Hebrews, Jude and a few other books as inspired Scripture.”

Steve Ray, “Bible's Canon: Do Protestants or Catholics Have The Correct Books?

Ray infers that Luther wanted to create his own canon, while most scholars recognize Luther holds to a “canon within a canon” [see Roland Bainton, Studies on the Reformation (Boston: Beacon Press, 1963) 5]. Paul Althaus explains that Luther “allows the canon to stand as it was established by the ancient church. But he makes distinctions within the canon” [See Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966), 83].

solomon said:
Without any authoritative volume of history on Luther in front of me, my own impressions up to this point would be that Luther did not throw out any of the books of canon.

Excellent. You would be entirely correct.Sometimes Roman Catholics make the radical charge that Luther removed books from the Bible; more often they accuse Luther of creating his own canon. The charge most often says Luther’s opinion is the result of subjectivism. Catholic historian Hartmann Grisar has said, “[Luther] treats the venerable canon of Scripture with a liberty which annihilates all certitude… Luther makes religious sentiment the criterion by which to decide which books belong to the Bible, which are doubtful, and which are to be excluded.” Father Patrick O’Hare says Luther “twisted, distorted, and mutilated [the Bible]… He feels abundantly competent, by his own interior and spiritual instinct, to pronounce dogmatically which books in the canon of Scripture are inspired and which are not.” Neither of these scholars is correct in their opinions, but unfortunately I find this type of sentiment common in cyber-space.

solomon said:
What he may have done,on the other hand, is argue against the inspired nature of several of the books of the accepted canon as worthy as a basis for doctrine. These would include the Apocryphal works, James, Hebrew and St Jude.

That's part of it (I deny your term though "accepted canon").Understanding Luther on this issue demands approaching him from two perspectives:1. Luther’s perspective on the canon as a sixteenth century Biblical theologian 2. Luther’s personal criterion of canonicity expressed in his theology

solomon said:
The so-far unsubstantiated question of Melancthon's influence aside,

I have very strong hunch this will remain completely unsubstantiated. I spent quite a while looking for it. I even e-mailed Steve Ray, and posted a challenge to him on his message boards to provide the information. I never got a response. This was months ago.

solomon said:
what therefore would be a fair assessment of Luther's influence on the history of the Apocrypha's rejection?

Well, as I stated above, Luther said, "These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’” In this, he follows a tradition that was in place well before he came on the scene. If you read his writings, you will find that he lives up to what he said. He uses the apocrypha, but does not hold it to be Sacred Scripture. That subsequent Protestantism eventually came to not even bother placing them in the Bible is not in any way the result of Luther. Luther was simply following a tradition that was already in place. In logic, there is a fallacy that says something like, "because of X, therefore Y". Pretend Luther's view on the apocrypha is "X" and subsequent Protestanism dropping the books is "Y". It doesn't neccesarily have to follow that X caused Y in any way.


solomon said:
edit to add: Ray's information seems to come from this source:20. Patrick O Hare, The Facts About Luther (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, rev. ed., 1987, orig. Cincinnati, 1916), 202–203.

Ah, I know this book quite well. This will be continued in another post.

Regards, James Swan
 
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Tertiumquid

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solomon said:
edit to add: Ray's information seems to come from this source:20. Patrick O Hare, The Facts About Luther (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, rev. ed., 1987, orig. Cincinnati, 1916), 202–203.

Used as a strong dose of anti-Protestant prejudice, Roman Catholic laymen frequently refer to Father Patrick O’Hare’s book, The Facts About Luther. This may be the single worst treatment of Luther in print today. Father O’Hare presents an entire chapter on “Luther and the Bible” in which he viciously attacks Luther’s treatment of the canon. O’Hare’s analysis reads like a continuing round of shot gun blasts:

“[Luther’s] was a most lamentable state whilst confined at the Wartburg. No wonder he produced a Bible full of malicious translations. A victim of fleshly lust and one in constant contact with Satan could hardly be expected to treat the undefiled Word of God with reverence. What reliance can be placed on a translation of the Bible made under such unfavorable circumstances?”

“[Luther] translated the Bible- or what pretended to be the Bible. His mutilation of the Holy Book, and the amputation of several of its members make little or no difference to his admirers.”

“[Luther] sacrificed accuracy and mistranslated the Bible with deliberate purport and intention, in order to fit to his false theories and to make it serve to buttress his heresies.”

“To call Luther’s version, which is a monstrous forgery, the Word of God is nothing less than criminal and blasphemous.”

These are but a few examples of the abject hatred expressed by Father O’Hare. Catholics cling to this book, sell it on their web sites, and recommend it as a proper work for studying Luther. They also quote from it on the battlefield of cyber-space to defend their church. A few years ago, Roman Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong cited from O’Hare in his article “Luther vs. the Canon of the Bible.” To his credit Armstrong removed the quotes he got from O'Hare from his web site. Armstrong saw what I did in The Facts About Luther: O’Hare provides little documentation for his "facts". One is faced with the difficulty of locating the specific Luther quotes he utilized. If one wishes to read them in context, one faces a daunting (if not close to impossible) task. Considering O’Hare’s extreme revulsion of Luther, checking his citations becomes important to see if his hostility skewed his research. St Joseph’s Communications likewise recommends the book: “This is a popular exposé of Luther's life and work based on Protestant historians. Incredible history, fascinating evidence about Luther, and many important quotes are given

If Steve Ray is relying on this book for information about Luther, his research will be highly flawed, as this is probably one of the worst books ever written about Luther.

Regards,
James Swan
 
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Tertiumquid said:
No. There was a running debate among theologians throughout the centuries previous to Luther. Even at Trent, there was debate between Roman Catholic theologians about the apocrypha. Interestingly, some of the best theologians at Trent were against the apocrypha.
Yet no matter how brilliant a theologian, or how Catholic, they cannot represent the Magesterium.
Jerome too, was the best theologian of his day, and was against inclusion of many works. In the end, he deferred to the authority of the Magesterium of the Church.


Interestingly, the great 16th century Roman Catholic Cardinal Cajetan also questioned the authenticity of certain Biblical books. In 1532, Cajetan wrote his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament. In this work, Cajetan leaves out the entirety of the Apocrypha since he did not consider it to be Canonical. Cajetan said,
“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage."
This then, was the milieu in which Luther formented his opinions about Deuterocanicals and certain New Testament works.

Well, I haven't hear this one before. Now Luther is responsible for the entire Apocrypha being deleted from later Protestant Bibles!
If you hadn't heard it before, then you haven't hear it yet.
Read carefully. The whole intent of what I was writing was that Luther did not delete these works. He was not as responsible for their eventual deletion as were the likes of Cardstadt, and even Calvini's followers(ie the Geneva Bible).
The main way in which I propose that Luther was responsible would be in his physical separation of the lesser works of the deuterocanicals, and others from the 'key works'.
Also the opinions of this man carried great weight among later Protestants. His opinions that these books were not of equal value were followed up on by others who did not even find them particularily useful of good reading.

This does injustice to Luther in my opinion. The editors of 'Luther’sWorks' explain, “In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’"

And that is exactly what I have been saying!

Your view is far too simple. What of Erasmus? Surely his impact on Biblical scholarship cannot be denied. Secondly, while Luther may have impacted the Protestant world, one finds that others in the Reformation did not follow Luther in his every belief. That's why the Reformed has differences from Luther. They didn't eventually drop the apocrypha becasue of Luther's work. One finds a great many scholars in the Reformed tradition. Calvin for instance was a master of church history. Beza likewise was a gifted historian and theologian.
A paragraph of two of discussion does not of course represent the whole of my views. The simplicity of brevity is a virtue on discussion boards!

Certainly, Erasmus had great effect in biblical scholarship, in promoting reform within the Church, in Biblical translation, and in promotong humanist ideas.
It does not do Luther injustice, however, in pointing out that he became something of an icon for many Protestants and Reformationists that came after him.

No, there was no love lost between Lutherans and Calvinists of later days. But Luther was the one that paved the way in not only questioning the authority of many books of the Bible, but in asserting his own opinion above that of Church authority.

He proved that this could be done and still live!

Herein lies the difference between Luther and Erasmus and Jerome, or even lesser knowns such as Catejan, I suppose. As Catholics, we all have our opinions, as Luther had his.
Ultimately though, being Catholic means our yielding our own opinions in deference to the Magesterium of the Church.

For Luther, what was affirmed as canon centuries before him, and was then reconfirmed as canonical at Trent, held less weight than his own personal opinion. What constituted canon or merely good reading after Luther, was no longer truth revealed through the Church, but a personal spirit-derived opinion. Let the reader decide!

Luther could then put his opinion about James being a comparitive letter of straw in the introduction of one printing of his bible, and then omit it from another. We are all entitled to change our minds, after all.

It was upon this point of the worthiness of their own authority (if not Luther's), that later reformers agreed. The truth or worthiness of a book therefore becomes arbitrated by opinion.
 
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solomon said:
Tertiumquid said:
Yet no matter how brilliant a theologian, or how Catholic, they cannot represent the Magesterium.
Jerome too, was the best theologian of his day, and was against inclusion of many works. In the end, he deferred to the authority of the Magesterium of the Church.

.

Good Day, Solomon

Where do you come to the understanding that he defered his teaching on the status of this writtings to some authority of the Magesterium? It is clear to see in history after the Vulgate that may people took the view of Jerome in this reguard, did they not know of this deferrment on Jerome's part?

This deferrment had to be after the printing of the Vulgate.

As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

Jerome
Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon

Did the editors also miss this deferrment?

Our analysis has shown that the vast weight of historical evidence falls on the side of excluding the Apocrypha from the category of canonical Scripture. It is interesting to note that the only two Fathers of the early Church who are considered to be true biblical scholars, Jerome and Origen (and who both spent time in the area of Palestine and were therefore familiar with the Hebrew canon), rejected the Apocrypha. And the near unanimous opinion of the Church followed this view. And coupled with this historical evidence is the fact that these writings have serious internal difficulties in that they are characterized by heresies, inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies which invalidate their being given the status of Scripture. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. I (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 390.


Peace to u,

Bill

 
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Tertiumquid

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solomon said:
If you hadn't heard it before, then you haven't hear it yet.
Read carefully. The whole intent of what I was writing was that Luther did not delete these works. He was not as responsible for their eventual deletion as were the likes of Cardstadt, and even Calvini's followers(ie the Geneva Bible).
The main way in which I propose that Luther was responsible would be in his physical separation of the lesser works of the deuterocanicals, and others from the 'key works'.

I read your words very carefully. Perhaps it's my words that need to be read carefully by you. I said the charge was that Luther was being held "responsible for the entire Apocrypha being deleted from later Protestant Bibles..". I did not say that you held he took books out of the Bible. In fact in a later post I commended you for understanding Luther did not remove books from the Bible. I said of your view, "Excellent. You would be entirely correct."

I do not agree with your conclusion of finding Luther in some way "responsible" for the "physical separation" of the apocrypha- for 2 reasons:

1) The tradition of seperating the apocrypha preceeded Luther. It was a tradition already within the church.

2) Luther also seperated 4 New Testament books, yet subsequent Protestantism by and large did not follw him. One then is forced to ask why? If Luther's opinions on the canon were so crucial, why was it that his Old Testament opinions were followed and not the New? Thus, I think you are giving Luther unjustified blame for subsequent Protestant Bibles.

solomon said:
For Luther, what was affirmed as canon centuries before him, and was then reconfirmed as canonical at Trent, held less weight than his own personal opinion. What constituted canon or merely good reading after Luther, was no longer truth revealed through the Church, but a personal spirit-derived opinion. Let the reader decide!

I have no desire to launch into a debate over RCC canonicity. Even if one were to grant the validity of the Roman Catholic Church declaring the contents of the canon, Erasmus, Luther, and Cajetan formed their opinions and debated these issues previous to the council of Trent. The New Catholic Encyclopedia has honestly pointed out,


"According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the Biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church (at the Council of Trent). Before that time there was some doubt about the canonicity of certain Biblical books, i.e., about their belonging to the canon.”

There were subtle differences between the councils you say "reconfirmed as canonical" the books of the Bible. That's why the New Catholic Encyclopedia says what it says. The liberty with Canon demonstrated by Luther, Erasmus, and Cajetan (who was quite well known in the 16th Century) was simply the liberty as allowed by the sixteenth century Roman Catholic Church. If the New Catholic Encyclopedia is correct, Erasmus, Cajetan, and Luther had every right within the Catholic system to engage in Biblical criticism and debate over the extent of the Canon. All expressed “some doubt.” Theirs was not a radical higher criticism. The books they questioned were books that had been questioned by previous generations. None were so extreme as to engage in Marcion-like canon-destruction. Both Erasmus and Luther translated the entirety of Bible, and published it.Biblical scholar Alan Wikgren notes that at Trent itself there were a variety of opinions on the canon, and even after the council some Catholic scholars still treated them differently:

“The Council of Trent settled these matters for Catholics, but the deliberations and debates preceding the Tridentine actions in February-March, 1546 reveal the many differences of viewpoint which existed at that time. The unnecessarily extreme decisions reached, e.g., in the affirmation of apostolic authorship of the disputed books reflect a zealous reaction to such views as those of Erasmus and Cajetan, as well as of Luther and his followers. Yet some twenty years later Sextus Senensis in his Bibliotheca Sancta divides the biblical books into "Protocanonical" (undisputed in the early church) and "Deuterocanonical" (disputed). In the New Testament the latter consisted of the usual seven plus the longer ending of Mark, Luke 22: 43f and the Pericope adulterae. But he goes on to recognize that all are now of full canonical authority. The term "deuterocanonical", however, has among Catholics continued to be used of the Old Testament Apocrypha, although not of Esther, which Sextus had included in this category.”

Luther’s treatment of the canon is not the claim of authoritarian dogma. When one looks at the totality of Luther’s New Testament canon criticism, it is quite minute: four books. Of his opinion he allows for the possibility of his readers to disagree with his conclusions. His overall opinion softened later in life by the exclusion of many negative comments in his revised prefaces. Of the four books, it is possible that Luther’s opinion fluctuated on two (Hebrews and Revelation). Even while criticizing James and Jude, he positively quoted from them throughout his career. In the case of Jude he did a complete series of lectures. In the case of James, he occasionally preached from the book.

In regards to the apocrypha, Luther stood in the same tradition as did Cajetan and someone like the great Cardinal Seripando. If you're not sure who he is, he was one of the best Roman Catholic scholars at the Council of Trent.As i've quoted before, "In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’”

solomon said:
It was upon this point of the worthiness of their own authority (if not Luther's), that later reformers agreed. The truth or worthiness of a book therefore becomes arbitrated by opinion.

I've asked this question a number of times to Roman Catholics: What was the criteria that was used at Trent to decide which books are canonical? The answer can't be "tradition" because history shows there were two competing canonical "traditions". There was not simply one tradition. What then, was the deciding factor? The great Trent scholar (Roman Catholic) Hubert Jedin notes that those opposed to the apocrypha were excellent scholars:

"From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.”


Now you may respond, "majority vote" decides. One wonders then what Athanasius would say to you. He held to the truth against almost the entire church at one point in history. What it really comes down to is this: for me, the decions about the canon at Trent were not decided by scholarship, but were probably decided by majority vote. In other words, it was a group "opinion", and is not in any way able to be absolutely determined "God's truth".

Regards,
James Swan
 
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Tertiumquid

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Solomon
Where do you come to the understanding that he defered his teaching on the status of this writtings to some authority of the Magesterium? It is clear to see in history after the Vulgate that may people took the view of Jerome in this reguard, did they not know of this deferrment on Jerome's part?
This deferrment had to be after the printing of the Vulgate.
Did the editors also miss this deferrment?Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill,

Roman Catholics frequently assert something like, "Jerome changed his mind on the Canon". Usually a long quote from Jerome follows. If that happens here, i'm hoping someone can acutally put the quote in its context, and go line by line proving this is so. In my own studies, I can't for the life of me figure out how the mystery Jerome quote says what they say it does.

God bless,
James
 
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SolomonVII

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Tertiumquid said:
Hi Bill,

Roman Catholics frequently assert something like, "Jerome changed his mind on the Canon". Usually a long quote from Jerome follows. If that happens here, i'm hoping someone can acutally put the quote in its context, and go line by line proving this is so. In my own studies, I can't for the life of me figure out how the mystery Jerome quote says what they say it does.

God bless,
James
Well, very good information so far (and a struggle for me to keep up :), I'm missing a few posts in the time it takes to write ),
But the existence of the Vulgate, with its exclusion of the Letter of Barnabus, which Jerome would have wanted to include, and his grudging inclusion of the apocryphal works of Tobit, and Judith, the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susannah and Bel and the Dragon into the Vulgate itself are the clear indication that he did yield in his commission from Pope Damascus.

Did he change his mind?

I doubt it. His original Vulgate carefully noted that these supplements were not found in the Hebrew originals. And there were more apocryphal works included later, and not all later copyists shared his concern of leaving his notes.
BUT, the fact that these works were included with notes in his Latin Vulgate are the proof that Jerome choice to yield his opinion in deference to the pope who commisioned his work.
 
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solomon said:
Well, very good information so far (and a struggle for me to keep up :), I'm missing a few posts in the time it takes to write )...

You know just a thought. I was considering the question of the apocrypha and Luther, and your interest as to whether or not Luther's translation and prefaces of the Bible played a siginifcant role in later removal of the apocryphal books from Protestant Bibles.

On reflection, I think that if Luther did play some "type of role" (though I am not convinced his opinion and Bible layout really were such a major factor, or even a springboard type of factor), I say, God bless Luther for yet another positive result on the Christian faith.

I have argued here that there was a "tradition" within the church to view these books as good for reading, yet not on par with Holy Scripture. If they were subsequently removed post-Reformation, well, that's a good thing probably. I really don't want to have such books in my Bible if they are not "Thus saith the Lord". Who says the "tradition" of having those books among the Holy books is a good thing?

It's been an interesting dialog solomon, thanks.

James Swan
 
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As far as springboard effect goes, I would thank Luther more if The Revelation of John and the Book of Daniel would have made it onto some of these early Protestant's dangerous list. Luther thoughts on this subject didn't have nearly as much influence on the diminishment of this book as I would have hoped.

Every time that you hear about some whacko Christian zealot plotting to blow up the Temple of the Dome in hopes of bringing about the Second Coming, or some such activity, rest assured that they were 'inspired' by Revelation.

Revelation was only a late addition to Canon, and only then with the belief of the Catholic Church that they would always be around to control how such books were to be used!

Let's face it. Some books of the Bible absolutely need some interpretations placed upon them by the greater church.

None of the books of the Apocrypha would have really made my dangerous list, but imho, reading the Revelation with the assumption that the Spirit is behind your understanding is like pure fire.
 
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solomon said:
As far as springboard effect goes, I would thank Luther more if The Revelation of John and the Book of Daniel would have made it onto some of these early Protestant's dangerous list. Luther thoughts on this subject didn't have nearly as much influence on the diminishment of this book as I would have hoped.

A big problem in the United States is the emphasis many churches have on prophecy. Many churches include something like, "We believe in the pretribulational rapture" in their statements of faith. Dispensationalism (ala Tim LaHaye) is the predominant eschatological view, and probably the view most unsupported by the Bible. It's not uncommon for new converts to flip right to the book of Revelation and think they're going to figure it out- As far as I can tell, there have been 2000 years of interpretations or Revelation- and then some new convert comes along and thinks they'll figure it out in a month or two.

Early on, Luther wrote a very short negative preface to the book of Revelation, which would probably have made you happy. Luther eventually rewrote it entirely in 1530. John Warwick Montgomery points out,

“Luther’s short and extremely negative Preface to the Revelation of St. John was completely dropped after 1522, and the Reformer replaced it with a long and entirely commendatory Preface (1530). Because “some of the ancient fathers held the opinion that it was not the work of St. John the apostle,” Luther leaves the authorship question open, but asserts that he can no longer “let the book alone,” for “we see, in this book, that through and above all plagues and beasts and evil angels Christ is with His saints, and wins the victory at last.” In his original, 1532 Preface to Ezekiel, Luther made a cross-reference to the Revelation of St. John with no hint of criticism; in his later, much fuller Preface to Ezekiel, he concludes on the note that if one wishes to go into prophetic study, more deeply, “the Revelation of John can also help.”

As is fairly well known, Luther did think it was the "last days" which probably accounts for the longer more "positive" preface (as I survey the 16th Century, I can see how he arrived at his view quite easily). For a great look at Luther's interpretation of the "last days" he thought he was in, See the Complete Sermons of Martin Luther Vol. 1, "Second Sunday in Advent" (p.59-86) [Michigan:Baker books, 2000]. Luther delves into the text of Luke 21. The difference between Luther and most of the end-times wing nuts, is Luther expresses himself in undogmatic terms: "I do not wish to force any one to believe as I do; neither will I permit anyone to deny me the right to believe that the last day is near at hand" (page 62).

solomon said:
Let's face it. Some books of the Bible absolutely need some interpretations placed upon them by the greater church.

Protestants don't deny the need and role of teachers in the church. Recall, Luther himself was a doctor of theology. He wrote many expositions of Scripture. Luther also took the role of preaching extremely seriously as a means of grace. Protestants say the central message of the Bible is clear to the common man. This doesn't mean all parts of scripture are equally clear. A fundamental tenet of Protestant biblical interpretation is that the clearer passages of scripture interpret those not as clear. Scripture thus interprets itself. Hence, this does not negate the role of Godly teachers.

On the other hand, if Rome does has the gift of infallible interpretation, what's the hold up? Very few passages of scripture have been given infallible interpretations. Rome could solve a lot of problems once and for all, if they would simply use their (alleged) God-given gift of interpretation.

solomon said:
None of the books of the Apocrypha would have really made my dangerous list, but imho, reading the Revelation with the assumption that the Spirit is behind your understanding is like pure fire.

There are some fairly difficult historical problems with some of the content of the Apocrypha. When I saw the roman Catholic Gary Michuta debate on this subject, he was asked some very difficult questions on material in the apocrypha: blatant historical inaccuracies. His response was something like, "I have faith that the books are true" and "you're arguing like an atheist to bring up these issues." So indeed, I'm glad they are out of Protestant Bibles.

Regards,
james Swan
 
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Tertiumquid said:
There were subtle differences between the councils you say "reconfirmed as canonical" the books of the Bible. That's why the New Catholic Encyclopedia says what it says.

Yet not very significant differences. Florence is the first General Council, followed by Trent, to address the issue. Before this, every local council which addressed the issue came up with virtually the same Canon -- with the possible exception of Laodicea (I say "possible" because the authenticity of canon 60 is in dispute). Of course none of these local councils were binding on the Church. Yet it is interesting that the larger Canon continued to be used, even in supporting doctrine of the Church at local and at least 3 General Councils.

The liberty with Canon demonstrated by Luther, Erasmus, and Cajetan (who was quite well known in the 16th Century) was simply the liberty as allowed by the sixteenth century Roman Catholic Church. If the New Catholic Encyclopedia is correct, Erasmus, Cajetan, and Luther had every right within the Catholic system to engage in Biblical criticism and debate over the extent of the Canon. All expressed “some doubt.” Theirs was not a radical higher criticism. The books they questioned were books that had been questioned by previous generations. None were so extreme as to engage in Marcion-like canon-destruction.

Indeed. Every single canonical list from the Fathers differs in some way from the others indicating that there was confusion and there is no one on record excommunicated for holding to either the shorter or the larger Canon.

I've asked this question a number of times to Roman Catholics: What was the criteria that was used at Trent to decide which books are canonical? The answer can't be "tradition" because history shows there were two competing canonical "traditions". There was not simply one tradition. What then, was the deciding factor?

In a word: Florence. The Tridentine Fathers felt bound by the decisions reached at Florence. What was settled at Trent was that the deuteros were equally Scripture in all their parts with the protocanonicals.

What it really comes down to is this: for me, the decions about the canon at Trent were not decided by scholarship, but were probably decided by majority vote. In other words, it was a group "opinion", and is not in any way able to be absolutely determined "God's truth".

Er...no. For more on this, see Peter G. Duncker’s “The Canon of the Old Testament at the Council of Trent” in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly, Volume 15, 1953, pp. 277-299.

Regards,
James Swan

Aren't you the fellow who wrote the article on Luther and the Canon over on Eric Svendsen's website? If so, not bad...

Pax Christi,
John
 
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Tertiumquid

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IrishJohan said:
Er...no. For more on this, see Peter G. Duncker’s “The Canon of the Old Testament at the Council of Trent” in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly, Volume 15, 1953, pp. 277-299.

Aren't you the fellow who wrote the article on Luther and the Canon over on Eric Svendsen's website? If so, not bad...

Hi John,

Yes, that's my article on Eris Svendsen's site, and thank you for the compliment (i'm actually in the process of revising that paper).

If you have a link to the article you refer to, i'd love to see it. On the other hand, I utilize the work of the Roman Catholic historian Hubert Jedin, who was known as one of the foremost experts on Trent. I reccommend his book to you: Papal Legate At The Council of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947 ).

Jedin notes there was debate among those who attended Trent as to what the exact contents of the canon were. Jedin notes that some of the best scholars in attendence were persuaded that Jerome's canon was the correct canon. My concern (and question) is to find out why these scholars' opinions at Trent were knocked down. If it was simply an appeal to Florence, it only convinces me more that there really wasn't any debate about the canon. Rather, there was some type of vote:it was a group "opinion", that determined "God's truth".

In regard to the canon question of "criteria", your answer only pushes my question back to 1442. What criteria did Florence use to determine canonicity?

As to the overall nature of this thread, the question of Luther's rejection of the apocrypha is the main focus. Luther was alligned with the tradition of Jerome's canon, which had advocates at Trent. The tradition of rejecting these books had strong support throughout history. Thus, Luther's opinion on the canon can't rightly be critisized by any with the Roman Catholic Tradition.

Regards,
James Swan
 
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