Lust?

[Zebra1552]

Indeed. But whereas lust is self-regarding, desiring only to satisfy itself, eros love is other-regarding, desiring to satisfy the other. That is why the one is a sin, and the other is not. One is selfish, the other selfless. Of course, in reality these are extremes on a spectrum, rather than exclusive alternatives.

Best, 2RM

True lust, yeah...

 

[Zebra1552]

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

i have often debated with myself the issues that are presented in this thread and have found that when it comes down to it i must compare my thoughts with the verse posted above. if my thoughts/desires do not match up with any of the above criterion then i must put them aside and think on something else. let me tell you, it works and if ever i must question if i think something is wrong then likely it is (at least as far as my own conscience is concerned). if i look around in various places to answer a question and can't find a satisfactor answer, then i go with my conscience; and sometimes, my search for an answer to whether something is a sin or not is really just a search for an excuse to continue in that sin with my conscience on silent mode. consider these things next time you think you are lusting. note also that lust can disguise itself as a love for beauty as i know from experience.

What determines what these things are? The Bible. If the Bible's silent on masturbation, is it not any of the things listed in the verse?

 

[chrisnu]

Simply finding someone attractive is not sinful. I also believe that simply having a sexual thought about a person you've noticed is not sinful, either. The sexual drive is not something you can simply turn off. However, I believe this becomes sin when you entertain that thought, and begin actively fantasizing about the person in your mind. There is a very thin line here. It's something where you have to be sensitive to the Spirit, and understand what's going to trigger you into fantasizing. However, I think that Christian men in particular can make themselves so guilt-ridden over this issue that it becomes very self-destructive. I know I have.

 

[Zebra1552]

Simply finding someone attractive is not sinful. I also believe that simply having a sexual thought about a person you've noticed is not sinful, either. The sexual drive is not something you can simply turn off. However, I believe this becomes sin when you entertain that thought, and begin actively fantasizing about the person in your mind. There is a very thin line here. It's something where you have to be sensitive to the Spirit, and understand what's going to trigger you into fantasizing. However, I think that Christian men in particular can make themselves so guilt-ridden over this issue that it becomes very self-destructive. I know I have.

Yeah, what about fantasizing over someone you're married to? If lust is simply fantasy, then married people sin all the time.

 

[chrisnu]

Yeah, what about fantasizing over someone you're married to? If lust is simply fantasy, then married people sin all the time.

Good question. I've never been married, so this is not an option for me, and I have no experience to cull from. I know some people who believe that sexual fantasy of any kind (even about their spouse) is sin, and others who do not. This is very difficult to gauge. If you perceive that fantasizing causes you to actively turn away from God in order to satisfy the desire for sexual pleasure, I could consider that sinful. If it's nothing more than a pleasant daydream about making love with your spouse... you have to know your heart, I suppose. This is a matter which requires contemplation and prayer.

 

[marshgreencohen]

Good question. I've never been married, so this is not an option for me, and I have no experience to cull from. I know some people who believe that sexual fantasy of any kind (even about their spouse) is sin, and others who do not. This is very difficult to gauge. If you perceive that fantasizing causes you to actively turn away from God in order to satisfy the desire for sexual pleasure, I could consider that sinful. If it's nothing more than a pleasant daydream about making love with your spouse... you have to know your heart, I suppose. This is a matter which requires contemplation and prayer.

I agree.

 

[god's_pawn]

What determines what these things are? The Bible. If the Bible's silent on masturbation, is it not any of the things listed in the verse?

personally i believe that masturbation is included and is a sin. my response was more directed toward those of the opposing view. i thank you though for your comment, i probably needed that to clarify my stance a little better.

God bless,

Stephen

 

[fieryphoenix]

Sexual desire is natural. There is nothing wrong with sexual desire, provided that said desire does not take over your life.

The bible does not proscribe masturbation. The idea that masturbation is sinful is just another legalism to keep us in spiritual bondage. Masturbation is good, provided it does not become something you have to do to get through your day. Nobody ever caught a disease from masturbation.

 

[Zebra1552]

personally i believe that masturbation is included and is a sin. my response was more directed toward those of the opposing view. i thank you though for your comment, i probably needed that to clarify my stance a little better.

God bless,

Stephen

Of course it was directed to the opposing view... yet what evidence is there for your position? You believe it is a sin, great! Are not sins found in the Bible? Otherwise, how can they be sinful?

 

[dayhiker]

Ya, lots of people like to make things sinful. Seems to me that they thinks they are more holy if they deny themselves. This was big in the church back in the 2-4th centurey of the church. But one can't find their type of self-denial in the Bible. The pharicees wanted jesus to deny himself in more ways, but Jesus said he wouldn't cume under their laws that they created. Jesus was here to do the Father's will, not to obey rules others asked him to obey.

Why do we feel guilty over these rules that men make that aren't God's rules?

dayhiker

 

[god's_pawn]

Of course it was directed to the opposing view... yet what evidence is there for your position? You believe it is a sin, great! Are not sins found in the Bible? Otherwise, how can they be sinful?

my apologies but i'm not quite sure what you're asking.... clarify?

 

[Zebra1552]

my apologies but i'm not quite sure what you're asking.... clarify?

I'm asking you how you justify labeling masturbation as sin when it's not found anywhere in the Bible. Also, what do you do with the evidence that lust in Matthew 5 does not refer simply to sexual desire, but coveting which requires intent and fixation??

 

[god's_pawn]

I'm asking you how you justify labeling masturbation as sin when it's not found anywhere in the Bible. Also, what do you do with the evidence that lust in Matthew 5 does not refer simply to sexual desire, but coveting which requires intent and fixation??

well there are a few ways. first and most important is this: the Bible does not have to specifically label something as a sin for it to be a sin. because the Bible says nothing either for or against sin we must make our own conclusions based on what the Bible says and how God leads us to interpret it. i don't think God intended our bodies for sexual activity other than normal sex as had between one man and one woman. i don't see any way how masturbation in any way glorifies God. i don't see a purpose to it. i don't see profit in it. my conscience has always warned me against it. it is a stimulation that involves only the person doing it. the thoughts that arise in the process, i dare say, are not thoughts worth having. another verse i would consider is this: 1 Corinthians 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. so i suppose technically we can touch all we want, but is it beneficial? we can do it, but can't it be an addiction? can't it turn into something that we depend upon? if this is the case for any person then he should certainly abstain for we are taught to depend only on God.

such is my opinion.

 

[Zebra1552]

well there are a few ways. first and most important is this: the Bible does not have to specifically label something as a sin for it to be a sin.

By itself, this is an argument from silence. Driving could be a sin, typing could be a sin.

because the Bible says nothing either for or against sin we must make our own conclusions based on what the Bible says and how God leads us to interpret it.

This does not, however, determine whether something is sin or not, it determines whether or not something is against your conscience. Something that is wrong for you is not sin, it is wrong for you.

i don't think God intended our bodies for sexual activity other than normal sex as had between one man and one woman. i don't see any way how masturbation in any way glorifies God. i don't see a purpose to it. i don't see profit in it. my conscience has always warned me against it. it is a stimulation that involves only the person doing it. the thoughts that arise in the process, i dare say, are not thoughts worth having.

Then it is wrong for you. None of this makes it sin.

another verse i would consider is this: 1 Corinthians 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. so i suppose technically we can touch all we want, but is it beneficial?

Many studies show that it has many health benefits: for the prostate, for stress relief, and it can even be a sleeping aid. So yes, it is beneficial. Type in 'masturbation benefits', you'll get tons of good results on the first page.

we can do it, but can't it be an addiction? can't it turn into something that we depend upon?

Food can be addicting, so can alcohol. Yet neither of them is condemned in the Bible, just the excess of them.

if this is the case for any person then he should certainly abstain for we are taught to depend only on God.

such is my opinion.

We depend upon food and water for survival, as well as shelter/an ideal temperature. These are all physical. While they may be brought about by God, they are not necessarily caused by God, meaning that we do not, in fact, only depend upon God. Also, where is this verse that says God is all we need? And if that is the case, why has psychology shown the need for human contact to maintain psychological equilibrium? Your opinion is great for you, but it does not dictate what is or is not sinful: only what is wrong according to your conscience.

 

[god's_pawn]

By itself, this is an argument from silence. Driving could be a sin, typing could be a sin. This does not, however, determine whether something is sin or not, it determines whether or not something is against your conscience. Something that is wrong for you is not sin, it is wrong for you. Then it is wrong for you. None of this makes it sin. Many studies show that it has many health benefits: for the prostate, for stress relief, and it can even be a sleeping aid. So yes, it is beneficial. Type in 'masturbation benefits', you'll get tons of good results on the first page. Food can be addicting, so can alcohol. Yet neither of them is condemned in the Bible, just the excess of them.

We depend upon food and water for survival, as well as shelter/an ideal temperature. These are all physical. While they may be brought about by God, they are not necessarily caused by God, meaning that we do not, in fact, only depend upon God. Also, where is this verse that says God is all we need? And if that is the case, why has psychology shown the need for human contact to maintain psychological equilibrium? Your opinion is great for you, but it does not dictate what is or is not sinful: only what is wrong according to your conscience.

sigh, i knew i didn't want to get involved in this debate.... you asked for my opinion and i gave it. i will, however address a couple points in your response just because i think i should. first off, the argument of silence goes either way. it neither condemns masturbation nor encourages it, which leaves the situation to our determination. second, yes indeed mastubation is a sin in opinion and that was all i was arguing: my opinion. i sought not to impose said opinion on anyone, i simply gave my views on the subject as you asked. and third: what do you say to those people who have survived without either food or water for periods longer than what the normal human bady can stand? (jesus in the desert, the main character of "the heavenly man" and others that i fail to recall the names or circumstances of? were they super human, or were they depending on God? i think we know the answer here. yes to sustain our earthly bodies we eat and drink, but are these an addiction? no. now if God were to suddenly cease to exist, we would continue to exist? i think not. thus ultimately food and water are not true necessities, they just make God's job easier and we can certainly find great joy in them (we will be eating in heaven if i remember correctly). are we addicted to food? we can be, it's called gluttony. Proverbs 23:2 says: and put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony. so therefore that is a bad thing. i dare say that if masturbation becomes an addiction, then it is bad.

 

[Zebra1552]

sigh, i knew i didn't want to get involved in this debate.... you asked for my opinion and i gave it. i will, however address a couple points in your response just because i think i should. first off, the argument of silence goes either way. it neither condemns masturbation nor encourages it, which leaves the situation to our determination.

Okay, I think I lost you there. Sin is ALWAYS wrong, regardless of the person, because it goes against what God wants, not against someone's conscience. Argue it's wrong for you, sure, whatever. By all means. Argue it's sin? That is an endeavor that will fail.

second, yes indeed mastubation is a sin in opinion and that was all i was arguing: my opinion. i sought not to impose said opinion on anyone, i simply gave my views on the subject as you asked.

See above. When you say it is sin, rather than something that is wrong for you, you impose your opinion on others because of what sin is. Semantics, to be sure, but important semantics that can lead people astray from what the Bible really teaches (or doesn't teach).

and third: what do you say to those people who have survived without either food or water for periods longer than what the normal human bady can stand? (jesus in the desert, the main character of "the heavenly man" and others that i fail to recall the names or circumstances of? were they super human, or were they depending on God? i think we know the answer here.

That is completely beside the point I made, as it does not negate the fact that our bodies need food to survive. Without some type of sustenance, we will die.

yes to sustain our earthly bodies we eat and drink, but are these an addiction? no.

You used the words 'need' and 'dependent', not just 'addiction'.

now if God were to suddenly cease to exist, we would continue to exist? i think not. thus ultimately food and water are not true necessities, they just make God's job easier and we can certainly find great joy in them (we will be eating in heaven if i remember correctly). are we addicted to food? we can be, it's called gluttony. Proverbs 23:2 says: and put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony. so therefore that is a bad thing. i dare say that if masturbation becomes an addiction, then it is bad.

Masturbation is not in and of itself an addiction, however. In the same way that you argue it makes God's job easier to eat, so does masturbation in preventing people from sinning- lusting, in the biblical sense.

 

[god's_pawn]

well first off before i reply, let me first apologize for yesterday. i'm afraid i wasn't posting in a very christian manner as you may or may not have noticed. i was allowing myself to get frustrated over some of the issues going back and forth and it was affecting my responces. thus i apologize for that and any injury or insult that i may have caused.

Okay, I think I lost you there. Sin is ALWAYS wrong, regardless of the person, because it goes against what God wants, not against someone's conscience. Argue it's wrong for you, sure, whatever. By all means. Argue it's sin? That is an endeavor that will fail.

no no, that;s not quite what i meant. what i meant was: since the Bible doesn't say whether or not it is sin, we must then interpret it as best we may. i read what i read and based on that and add that to whatever other views i have and deem masturbationas sin (and at least as far as i am concerned this is true). you on the other hand can read the same passages, see no connection with masturbation and deem it not to be a sin (and as far as you are concerned it is not so).

See above. When you say it is sin, rather than something that is wrong for you, you impose your opinion on others because of what sin is. Semantics, to be sure, but important semantics that can lead people astray from what the Bible really teaches (or doesn't teach).

all this being said, obviously this is not an issue for you, therefore it is not a sin (for you). for myself on the other hand, i see it as wrong. it is against my conscience to commit the act therefore it is a sin for me to do it.

That is completely beside the point I made, as it does not negate the fact that our bodies need food to survive. Without some type of sustenance, we will die.

chance are very good to that affect; however, it is possible for God to sustain us apart from food and water. on the other hand, i see no substitute for God.

You used the words 'need' and 'dependent', not just 'addiction'.

oh, well i had assumed that were responding to my entire point (all three words included) not just part of it.

Masturbation is not in and of itself an addiction, however. In the same way that you argue it makes God's job easier to eat, so does masturbation in preventing people from sinning- lusting, in the biblical sense.

no, of course it's not an addiction by necessity, i was simply stating that should it become so it would then more or less become a sin. perhaps masturbation does this (in my case it might be called a "lesser of two evils"), then again there is the possibility that it encourages lust based on the thoughts that masturbating may be encouraging.God bless, Stephen

 

[Zebra1552]

well first off before i reply, let me first apologize for yesterday. i'm afraid i wasn't posting in a very christian manner as you may or may not have noticed. i was allowing myself to get frustrated over some of the issues going back and forth and it was affecting my responces. thus i apologize for that and any injury or insult that i may have caused.

It takes quite a bit more than that for me to feel insulted. For starters you'd have to start attacking my character, put words in my mouth, and bait me all in the same post. Now THAT's insulting. Not that you've done so, just giving an example of what would be insulting in my view...

no no, that;s not quite what i meant. what i meant was: since the Bible doesn't say whether or not it is sin, we must then interpret it as best we may. i read what i read and based on that and add that to whatever other views i have and deem masturbationas sin (and at least as far as i am concerned this is true). you on the other hand can read the same passages, see no connection with masturbation and deem it not to be a sin (and as far as you are concerned it is not so).

Then what you should say is that it is wrong for some and not for others, not that it is a sin.

all this being said, obviously this is not an issue for you, therefore it is not a sin (for you). for myself on the other hand, i see it as wrong. it is against my conscience to commit the act therefore it is a sin for me to do it.

It is wrong for you to do it.

chance are very good to that affect; however, it is possible for God to sustain us apart from food and water. on the other hand, i see no substitute for God.

I am stating a medical fact. Whether the sustenance is God or food, we need it for survival.

oh, well i had assumed that were responding to my entire point (all three words included) not just part of it.

Need is not addiction, so they are two separate terms.

 

[god's_pawn]

It takes quite a bit more than that for me to feel insulted. For starters you'd have to start attacking my character, put words in my mouth, and bait me all in the same post. Now THAT's insulting. Not that you've done so, just giving an example of what would be insulting in my view...

either way, my attitiude was not what it should have been and i apologize for that.

Then what you should say is that it is wrong for some and not for others, not that it is a sin. It is wrong for you to do it.

if it is wrong for me to do it, then it is a sin for me to do it. it's not a matter of correctness, it's about doing what's right good for me to do and not the opposite.

I am stating a medical fact. Whether the sustenance is God or food, we need it for survival. Need is not addiction, so they are two separate terms.

yes, under normal conditions we need food to survive (note though that i never used need in coalition with addiction, these two are nowhere near synonymous); however, it is possible for God to sustain us apart from food and to my knowledge the opposite of that is not possible.

 

[Zebra1552]

either way, my attitiude was not what it should have been and i apologize for that.



if it is wrong for me to do it, then it is a sin for me to do it. it's not a matter of correctness, it's about doing what's right good for me to do and not the opposite.

Then it is a sin for you, not just a sin.

yes, under normal conditions we need food to survive (note though that i never used need in coalition with addiction, these two are nowhere near synonymous); however, it is possible for God to sustain us apart from food and to my knowledge the opposite of that is not possible.

That's why I used the word 'sustenance'.