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Featured LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LittleLambofJesus, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Yes, it appears they are

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  2. No they are not

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  3. I don't know

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  4. Other [please explain]

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  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Revelation is a prophecy looking forward, not back again to 70 AD.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Isaiah 61:2
    [Luke 4:18-19 Luke 21:22]
    To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
    And the day of vengeance <5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.

    #1557 "vengeance" is used only in Luke of the Gospels, not in Revelation
    #4130 "fulfilled" is used only 2 times in Matthew, the rest in Luke and Acts


    1557. ekdikesis ek-dik'-ay-sis from 1556;

    vindication, retribution:--(a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment.
    4130 to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time):--accomplish, full (...come), furnish.

    Luke 21:
    22 For these are the days of avenging/vengeance<1557>, to fulfill<4130> all things having been written.


    However, another form of #1557 is used in Revelation, and also only in Luke of the Gospels [Luke 18:3-5].
    Used in 6 verses, 2 each in Luke, Romans and 2 Corinthians

    1556. ekdikeo ek-dik-eh'-o from 1558; to vindicate, retaliate, punish:--a (re-)venge.

    Revelation 6:10
    and they were crying with a great voice, saying, 'Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance/avenge<1556> of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
    Revelation 19:2
    because true and righteous are His judgments, because He did judge the great Whore who did corrupt the land in Her whoredom,
    and He did avenge<1556> the blood of His servants at Her hand;'

    Romans uses both forms:

    Romans 12:19

    not avenging<1556> yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written<1125>, 'Vengeance<1557> is Mine,

    Luke 21:
    22 For these are the days of avenging/vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written<1125>

    The exact form of #1125> is used in 8 verses of the NT
    Luke 18:31, Luke21:22, Luke 24:44, John 20:30, Acts:13:29, Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 19:12


    Acts 13:29
    and when they did complete all the things having been written<1125> about him, having taken him down from the tree, they laid him in a tomb;
    Revelation 1:3
    Happy/blessed is the one reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and the keeping the in it having been written<1125> in it --
    for the time is nigh at hand!
    Revelation 19:12
    and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems -- having a name/s having been written<1125 that no one hath known, except himself,


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  3. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Matthew 24, Mark, 13 and Luke 21 are the same prophecy recorded by different eye witnesses. They harmonize perfectly. John did not record the prophecy in his Gospel. Most likely because he was the only Apostle to see it fulfilled. His revelation only includes about a chapter and a half of prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD:
    Revelation 6:9-7:8 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. The 144,000 illustrate the believers who escaped Judea. The four horsemen before chapter 6: 9 are the four empires in Daniel. The great multitude starting in chapter 7:9 are the believers murdered by the Roman Empire in the next centuries and the judgements from there on are against Rome and later the entire empire, eastern and western branches.
    In Revelation 12 is the same vision over again with a lot more emphasis on the four empires of Daniel, of course once more throwing in references to the destruction of Jerusalem. Those references end in Revelation 14:5 with the illustration of 144,000 of the believers who escaped the destruction in 70 AD. Just like the prophecy starting in in Revelation 7:9 followed by the great harvest of souls in the Roman empire and Rome's persecution of the saints. From that point on the judgements are directed toward the city of Rome and then later. Much later the destruction of the entire empire. Revelation 20-22 is a prophecy about the age of promise that was to begin once the Roman Empire ended, in 1453 AD. Which we are living out.
    This article below I wrote will help you as far as the prophecy in the 3 Gospels in your quest to open eyes to the obvious. It is probably the most complete and easy to read one on the net.
    The End Of An Age

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I took a look at your site and noticed this at the beginning

    I have a thread on "this generation, and I also try to include the transliterated greek word for word as much as it is possible.
    Please feel free to contribute to it. Thanks
    "THIS GENERATION" in Bible

     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  5. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Obviously it means just what it says. The way people change it
    Whats to contribute? It says what it says and means what it says. To torture it to say something different is the rejection of scripture in favor of ones tradition.
    Here are some more from a Facebook post.
    Are you aware that Jesus told many of the people he was speaking to, including the apostle John, that they would live long enough to see the coming of the Lord? Here Matthew, Mark and Luke all record the same scene when Jesus tells a group of his disciples that some of them will live long enough to see his coming.
    Matthew16: 27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28: TRULY I SAY TO YOU. THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.
    Mark 8:38 Whoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said to them. TRULY i SAY TO YOU. THERE BE SOME OF THEM THAT STAND HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD COME WITH POWER.
    Luke 9:26 For whoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 BUT I TELL YOU OF A TRUTH. THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    Here Jesus tells John that he will live long enough to see his coming but tells Peter he will not.
    John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John) following...... 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; BUT IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you?

    Then Jesus tells the High Priest and the other religious leaders of Israel that some of them would live long enough to see his coming.
    Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: AND YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER AND COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

    Then of course there is Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem. It is very important to note that the only place in his whole prophecy that he used the emphasis "truly truly I say to you;" to command their attention, and ours was concerning when this prophecy would come to pass.
    Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34, IN TRUTH IS SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Mark 13:28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU, THAT THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE. 31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32. But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Luke 21:29. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is close at hand. 32. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU. THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    This is all in exact accordance with Daniels prophecy that when the messiah comes the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed. In fact the destruction of the temple and the city was one of the major signs, like his death and resurrection that Jesus was indeed the messiah.
    Daniel chapter 9 verses 25-27. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    So why do so many Christians and pastors not pay any attention to all these scriptures that say when Jesus would come and instead place it in our future? Mostly because they have no incentive to notice them. They accepted a teaching called the "second coming" as gospel long before they became familiar enough with the scripture to observe anything contrary to it. The Greek word for second doesn't even occur one time in the same sentence in the entire New Testament with the Greek word for "coming." At least not in this context. The acceptance of these pop culture end time teachings has quite naturally caused a spiritual and intellectual laziness around the subject of the coming of the Lord. Yet the scripture is replete with these great days of judgment where the Lord literally and physically came to earth to oversee great days of judgment or calamity. This isn't the only one the New Testament prophesied either. There are a dozen chapters of end time prophecy about the great judgments and end of the age of the four Gentile empires in the book of Revelation. Every single sentence of Jesus's prophecy in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 came to pass in the first century.
     
  6. ToServe

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    I believe you have the wrong temple, the wrong city, the Wrong fig Tree and the wrong judgment recipients that Jesus dishes out on the sons of perdition within his own Body of Believers. Paul addresses the Lord's brilliant coming to separate the Tares from amongst the Wheat which is represented by the members of his own Body of believers (The Fig Tree that becomes ripe/tender). The many sons of perdition (man/peoples {anthropos} of sin), within the New Testament Temple construct are those who originally had the truth but then apostatized (fell away) to serve a lie, so that they would be condemned because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Saint Stephan and Saint Paul saw the Lord's Appearing before 70AD (Acts 7:54-60, 2 Timothy 4:6-8). The High Priest lived long enough to Die after Christ's ascension to be a recipient of Hebrews 9:27, for all men, are destined to biologically die once than to be judged by Christ within his Kingdom context of Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:13-14. You do not believe that the high priest who was possibly in his later years had another 40 years to live until 70AD? Possibly making him 120+ years old. Jesus at his ascension was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language will worship him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Jesus according to Zechariah 14:1-4 is judging his own Church City Holy Jerusalem when the many sons owing to the Gentile nations who come to full (Romans 11:25) trampling The City within its walls and within the outer unmeasured court (Revelation 11:2) whilst the two witnesses who preach the Gospel (little sweet book) will continue to do so until their testimony is complete and since you and I are here as living witnesses then their testimony had not ended in 70AD, neither were the books opened in 70AD, when the final trumpet (7th {complete}) Trumpet declares time no longer as far as reaping from the tender/ripe Fig Tree.

    The Commission of the Church under the anointed two (Jews and Gentiles as the Church) continues even to this day as the seven eyes, seven Spirits of God who go out to the four corners of the world to preach the Gospel to the Gentile nations. They pour out the Golden Oil of Salvation through the seven golden candlestick Menorah of God in outreaching to all who are to be born and be accounted for within the Book of Life before the books are opened at Christ's Brilliant Coming.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28 has Jesus reigning through his two anointed Ones (Olive Tress) who carry his Cross and will continue to do so until they make the peoples of the Gentile nation's subjects of the Cross of Christ. When this happens to be accomplished, Christ would have delivered the Kingdom to God the Father as God would be all in all who would be written in the book of Life, as all the saved are now fully accounted for and then it is declared that Jesus has destroyed the last enemy spiritual and biological death. Jesus then becomes subject to the Father as to say the mission of the Cross is fully accomplished. This is all happening within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct as in "not by human might or by human power but by my Holy Spirit says God, for I have laid the foundation of the Temple Jesus Christ and my hands will finish building it" (Zechariah 4:6-9).

    Did God the Holy Spirit completely finish building his Temple in 70AD?

    The implication of focusing on carnal/fleshly wars and fleshly judgments and a fleshly city and a desolate priestly house after the sign of Jonah was given that once a priestly house is a mind governed by the mind of flesh (Romans 8) and has no discernment of matters of the Spirit. This calls for wisdom, that is, in order for a 70AD coming and resurrection of the dead to be claimed, then the following implications must be accepted -

    that the reign of Christ had ended along with the anointing of the Holy Spirit to build the Temple and the City.

    Yet according to the 70AD claim, we note that during 70AD that God would build his spiritual city and build his Temple and on the other hand we note a claim that Christ was made subject to the Father in 70AD owing to a fleshly war and judgment and the end had come in 70AD with the ushering in of the new heaven and the new earth and with it that death spiritual and death biological had ended in 70AD and many other claims that are just downright false and heretical by nature because they deny the power of the Cross and the power of the Holy Spirit post 70AD by virtue of those claims and since we are subjects of the Cross today then Full Preterism and Preterism eschatological and covenantal 70 AD claims should be rejected and declared by the Church as heretical and destructive to the faith in Christ Jesus.

    I am very certain that you will not receive this exhortation with favor and will resort to silence or even deflection to other matters without addressing the numerous unresolvable contradictions the 70AD narrative of a coming and a resurrection brings with it and many readers at this point should divorce themselves from such a false teaching that is an anti-thesis doctrine meant to destroy the faith from within.

    We see that in Zechariah 14:1-4 that Jesus allows the many sons of perdition to enter within the walls of the Holy City Jerusalem to rape the women (denominations) and to perpetuate the falling away from the faith and the judgment is upon this city mentioned in Zechariah 14:1-4 and this would hardly be something Jesus would do to his Church when his Chuch was chased from city to city and persecuted everywhere during the turbulent times from 68AD to 75AD.

    So, my friend, you have the wrong temple, the wrong city, and the wrong fig tree and the wrong judgment recipients.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  7. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I refer you to my previous post before the one you are answering.
    Matthew 24, Mark, 13 and Luke 21 are the same prophecy recorded by different eye witnesses. They harmonize perfectly. John did not record the prophecy in his Gospel. Most likely because he was the only Apostle to see it fulfilled. His revelation only includes about a chapter and a half of prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD:
    Revelation 6:9-7:8 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. The 144,000 illustrate the believers who escaped Judea. The four horsemen before chapter 6: 9 are the four empires in Daniel. The great multitude starting in chapter 7:9 are the believers murdered by the Roman Empire in the next centuries and the judgements from there on are against Rome and later the entire empire, eastern and western branches.
    In Revelation 12 is the same vision over again with a lot more emphasis on the four empires of Daniel, of course once more throwing in references to the destruction of Jerusalem. Those references end in Revelation 14:5 with the illustration of 144,000 of the believers who escaped the destruction in 70 AD. Just like the prophecy starting in in Revelation 7:9 followed by the great harvest of souls in the Roman empire and Rome's persecution of the saints. From that point on the judgements are directed toward the city of Rome and then later. Much later the destruction of the entire empire. Revelation 20-22 is a prophecy about the age of promise that was to begin once the Roman Empire ended, in 1453 AD. Which we are living out.
    This article below I wrote will help you as far as the prophecy in the 3 Gospels in your quest to open eyes to the obvious. It is probably the most complete and easy to read one on the net.
    The End Of An Age

    [​IMG]
     
  8. ToServe

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    Friend, please stop deflecting from the unresolvable contradictions the 70AD coming and resurrection brings with it.

    Please address my post and the contradictions that I presented point by point, then we may have a fair and balanced dialogue.
     
  9. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    First off. If you didn't think you know everything. You would have immediately noticed in my comment you just answered that I don't believe all end time Bible prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem. That should have at least sparked a little curiosity on your part.
    Besides that though. I reject your entire premise that the Bibles general doctrine of resurrection is a doctrine of a one or two time prophetic event somewhere out in the future. I insist that the general doctrine of the resurrection is a doctrine of immediate life after death in heaven or hell in a physical body. Just not physical as we know it now.
    From my article: Resurrection
    The aim of this article is to show what resurrection is through its contextual usage in scripture.
    That fact that there is resurrection is not controversial amongst professing Christians. The what, when, where, and how's, are controversial. There will be five main points in this article to show that the word resurrection is used to describe different things; and that the meaning of those things are shown in the context of that particular scripture. This as opposed to the idea or "hermeneutic" that seeks to make resurrection a one time future event based on a small number of the scriptures on the subject. There is also no need to go into the Greek words for resurrection, arose, rise, raised ect ect. These are used interchangeably so often to describe the same events it renders it unnecessary. The five points in order will be:
    1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)
    2. Again, depending on the context of those scriptures the word resurrection is used to convey the idea of a flesh and bone body dying and that same body miraculously restored to life as in the case of Lazarus.
    3. Or, as the context dictates, that resurrection can mean a flesh and bone body dying and that same body being restored to life; but then also becoming a "glorified" body like Jesus. This would also include the case of one never dying first but being caught up or "raptured" like Elijah.
    4. Then resurrection depending on the context is used illustratively to describe those who are "dead" in sin yet physically alive, becoming "alive" to God or resurrected. In other words a "spiritual" resurrection that occurs while still in our body.
    5. Finally, as the context dictates, a word or a vision of resurrection is used to teach the realities of points #1, #2, #3 or #4. Unfortunately though, like all words or visions from God; there is a natural tendency to interpret them as an event; rather than the use of illustrative language or pictures to describe basic truth.



    1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)

    Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


    Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here:

    John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    It was not unusual for Christ to differ with the culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today; as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true.

    Here's an example to bring the significance of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who from a family where they were all professing Christians. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It's comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "He is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.


    There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body:

    For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven
    The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not flesh and bone as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.

    Here are three Bible stories that demonstrate point #1 again but also point #3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body.
    Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day. 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31.Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.: We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, caught away to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, resurrected, and they have the appearance of angels. If resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are physically. like the angels?

    In another example of point #1 we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell:
    Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there "was" a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Also these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Then there is the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Plus he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. So how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of people already resurrected?
     
  10. ToServe

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    I only asked that you kindly address the contradictions of the 70AD narrative of Christ coming within a new heaven and a new earth and a resurrection. I know that you are capable of doing so in a suscinct manner, that is all.

    I feel tou need to address points that I have presented before making additional claims in support of a 70AD narrative.

    The contradictions are what they are and I don't believe you can just ignore their implications and continue on a tangent as if they do not matter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  11. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well I did address why I don’t believe resurrection has anything to do with the Lords coming in 70 AD did I not?
    As far as the prophecies about a new heaven and new earth. Number one. I reject your entire premise of just what that means. Number two. The age of promise was clearly not prophesied to begin at the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 AD. Instead that age of promise was prophesied to begin at the end of the age of the four gentile empires which turned out to be 1453 Ad when the Roman Empire finally ended.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

    Luk 21:26, Matt 24:29 and Mar 13:25 use the exact same form of G1411

    dunameiV δυνάμεις

    [which is used in 20 verses of the NT] None in Revelation

    Luke 21:
    26 Of men being-faint from fear and expectation of that which is coming to the being-homed<3625>.
    For the powers<1411> of the heavens will be shaken


    Matthew 24:

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
    and the powers<1411> of the heavens will be shaken.


    Mark 13:

    25 - “the stars of heaven will fall,
    and the powers<1411> in the heavens will be shaken.


    It is also used in 2 of these chapters of Matt and Luk
    [this discourse is not shown in Mark:]
    Last verse exact form is used is in Heb 6:15
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  13. ToServe

    ToServe Member

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    Inetresting! Firstly, thanks for clearing up your reply to the question of 70AD. Please explain why you believe 1453AD has to do with the end of Age?
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    The previous verses I put up used the plural #1411.

    The following verses of the Jerusalem/Temple discourse use the singular for #1411 and also use the exact same form of #2411
    and they also include the phrase "Son Man"


    δυνάμεως dunamewV

    Luke 21:27:
    And then will they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud, with power<1411> and great glory.
    Matthew 24:30
    “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power<1411> and great glory.
    Mark 13:26
    “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power<1411> and glory.


    It is used in 6 other verses of the Gospels, 2 each in Matt, Mar and Luke.
    and also has the phrase "Son of Man"


    Matthew 26:
    63 But Jesus held his peace.
    And the high priest answered and said unto Him, I adjure thee by the living God, that Thou tell us whether Thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    64 Jesus saith to Him, 'thou say;
    nevertheless I am saying to ye, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting out of rights of the power<2411> and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.'

    Mark 14:
    61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing.
    Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, "art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
    62 and Jesus said, 'I AM;
    and ye shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting out of rights of the power<2411> and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'

    Luke 22:
    66 And when it became day there was gathered together the elders of the people, high priests also and scribes, and they led Him up to their own sanhedrim,
    67 saying, ‘If thou be the Christ, tell us.’
    And He said to them, ‘If I may tell you, ye will not believe;
    68 and if I also question [you], ye will not answer Me or send Me away;
    69 Henceforth, there shall be the Son of Man sitting out of rights of the power<2411> of the God.'


    Exact form used in 2 verses of Revelation.
    Note the Sanctuary of the Temple being shown in Revelation 15:8.


    Revelation 15:8
    and filled was the Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of the God, and from His power<1411>.
    And no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary till the seven stripes/blows of the seven Messengers may be finished.

    Revelation 18:3
    because of the wine of the wrath of Her whoredom have all the nations drunk,
    and the kings of the land with Her did commit whoredom,
    and merchants of the land from the power<2411> of Her luxury/wealth<4764> are rich.


     
  15. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Ok. I'll start with something basic. Where on earth did Bible readers ever get the idea that there is just one age and that one age is talking about the world as we know it? That's not how the word is used in Greek or English literature.
    Here we have ages past, ie ages before the NT age.

    Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    Ephesians 3: 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    Here we have ages to come.
    Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    Here we have what I assume are ages past, present and future.
    Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    So, I am just going to tell you up front what I think the ages named in scripture from the time of Moses are before I give you scriptures for them.

    Old Covenant Age: From Moses to 70 AD. The age when God almost exclusively used the ancient Israel, both the believer and unbeliever among them to bring the influence of his invisible Kingdom into the earth. Which obviously included bring the messiah into the world and his written word.

    New Covenant Age: From the Advent of the messiah on as long as the world continues. Where God uses believers of people and all nations to bring the influnce of his invisible kingdom into the earth.

    Age of the Four Gentile Empires: A time period measured by the four gentile empires named and dated in scripture where God's people everywhere are overcome in war and ruled over by the wicked in all the earth. A time period when all the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints remained largely unfulfilled. Began when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and ended with the fall of the last part of the Roman empire in 1453 AD. In case you did not know it the capitol of the Roman Empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An emperor sat on the throne until 1453 AD when it was conquered by the Ottomans and the last Roman emperor killed.

    The Age Of Promise: At least that is what I call it. Starting 1453 AD as long as the world continues. The age prophesied from the very beginning of the Bible to the end. The age where the earthly promises of God in scripture finally begin to come to pass in nations that meet the conditions. An age that has well over 100 chapters of scripture describing what today's generations are seemingly blind to because they have accepted a the lie that we are living in the end times of the last two ages.

    I am also going to point out what brought about the age of promise before I list some scripture. on another post because this one will be to long. The very year the age of the gentiles ended the first European commercial printing press went on line. Within decades books and pamphlets went from production rates in the tens of thousands, hand written or printed via wood tablets to production rates of tens of millions. Printing presses printed 3 million of Martin Luther's pamphlets in a 3 year period.

    Within a century something occurred that never happened before in the history of mankind. Bibles got into the hands of the general public. Highly illegal at this time mind you but this happened in northern Europe. Then another first in human history outside ancient Israel. When the powers that existed, the Holy Roman Empire and the Kings of Southern Europe raised armies to wipe the cancer off the face of the earth. They failed, at the cost of tens of millions of lives but this was a first. Previously the kings and empires of the world had always eventually been successful at destroying a people who were getting access to God's Word. t The thinking that developed in northern Europe by the first Bible possessing Bible reading public gave us the free world so many now enjoy and that keeps expanding and expanding.

    The easy thing to see in all this: The nations that are the most influenced by the Word of God, by the Gospel, by the providence of God, by Gods people, by God's invisible government are now the dominate nations in the world. The polar opposite of the age of the four gentile empires. And.......as the prophecies of Gog and Magog predicted. The nations and peoples that oppose the spread of this phenomena. That war against it at the cost of tens of millions of lives keep losing to the nations most influenced by the Gospel. (Even though it always looks like they will win.
    (They surround the camp of the saints.)
    And the nations that have come under the varying degrees of this influence from heaven. Who run their affairs according to varying degrees of Biblical principle like establishing free republics, are no longer engaging in wars of conquest against each other to loot their neighbors wealth. That is what all those prophecies about animals that are illustrations of nations were predicting.


    Isaiah 11: 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

    Many generations of saints thought Jesus was going to ride in on a white horse and slay the wicked and wave his magic wand, the sword in his mouth which illustrates his Word and supernaturally impose righteousness on the earth. They didn't figure on having to win the promises of God and labor and sacrifice in Christ to transform their world. I think I'll let you digest this and maybe tomorrow after work give you the very clear scriptures that name and date these ages. Bet you could figure out a few without me having to if you were so inclined.

     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Can you show us where Jesus answered the Disciples question of "When the temple would be destroyed"?

    Since you assert He answered "Both Questions", it should be easy to show where He answered the first one, "When will the temple be destroyed" no?
     
  17. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Jesus does prophecy the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but the will alsp be a subsequent fulfillment in the middle of the Tribulation. This is not unusual for the prophets, Israel being restored after the Baylonian captivity, has another fulfillment in the coming of the kingdom at the end of the age. Joel 2:31 is fulfilled at Pentecost, then apparently fulfilled after the opening of the sixth seal, then later and ultimately during the pouring out of the vials of wrath.

    Its kind of like glass masking, the old Disney process of creationg four layers to create the phalanx effect. The background scene never moves, but scens that are closer do. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was prophesied but there is more going on there. Israel supposedly will have built one during the tribulation, they could just about do it with a tabranacle if it followed the levetical pattern
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Your comment brought forth a question to mind....
    Just how many "fulfillments" of any particular prophesy should we expect? 2, 3, 8, 17, 100.. More..?

    Does Scripture tell us?

    Can we ever know for sure whether a particular prophecy has been completely fulfilled if there is always a possibility of an even greater fulfillment?

    I believe your ideas of “multiple fulfillments" are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

    The O.T. prophets did not believe the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. Is Calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn foreshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).

    The "hermeneutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermeneutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES" that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.

    Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENEUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.

    So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermeneutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!

    Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).

    I'd like to add a question to you that I have posed to everyone I have come across who champions thise "double fulfillment" theory. I have yet to get an answer, Perhaps my wait is over!:

    Should we be expecting another Virgin Birth? Another Crusifixion? another ascention?

    Why not?

    If, as you say, double fulfillment is the rule, then we should absolutely expect to see these events fulfilled again.

    If not, could you show which prophesies the Bible tells you to take as single fulfillment and which to take as multiple?

    Is the crucifixion a mere "type" of some future greater redemption from sin?
    No?

    Then why is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a mere "type" of some future destruction of Jerusalem?

    Where does the Bible teach you to make such a distinction?
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Indeed such a premise ought be rejected by the honest Bible expositor. And, even though Resurrection is a tricky topic, it's easy to prove it's not a one or two time event from scripture.

    The Bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations (Isa 26:13-14,19-20/ Ez 37), personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades/Sheol into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.
    Parsing them all out is what can get tricky.

    I maintain that the destruction of the Old Covenant nation is the primary sense of the apostles' eschatological teachings.

    For example, I would characterize Luke 2:34-35 as speaking of Israel's first-century destruction and re-constitution via the Nazarene sect of King Jesus under the foretold NEW covenant.

    Then, I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

    It is even possible to understand resurrection in light of the AD 30-AD 70 period, as the word itself means "to stand" and receives multiple uses and meanings in scripture. (Like the examples I said before: the OT "national resurrections" of Israel; the "being raised" with Christ in baptism; the removal of the departed OT souls from Hades to Heaven; the final state).

    Many of today's Christians have erred by not recognizing the link between the time statements and the end of the Old Covenant age, when God came in judgment upon Christ's enemies (Pharisees, Zealots, Sadducees, etc) at AD 70. Yes, even though we hold firm to a *final* judgment of God in the future, the imminent one that was "near" and "soon" and "at hand" to first-century jews was the AD 70 end of their nation and covenant and priesthood and tribes and 1500-year dynasty under Moses. The old nation instituted by Moses gave way to the new and greater covenanted nation which was made worldwide in Christ Jesus.

    Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

    The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

    What was to happen to the O.T-era dead was a central issue in the switch from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age. And in fact, nearly all christian groups admit that a major change took place for the dead during that time. Yet there is no agreement about what event marked their release from Hades. I believe the scripture is clear that the destruction of the Temple marked their release from Hades, as St. Paul teaches.

    I think Paul addresses it by saying the dead ones go first and living ones later. For sure, I believe we can all agree that faithful Christians do now go to heaven at death, and that this phenomenon began no later than AD 70. I believe St. Paul marks the change as having taken place with the destruction of the Old Covenant constitution and commonwealth.

    None of this in any way negates or usurps the FUTURE RESURRECTION to the FINAL state of all creation.

    Not recognizing this fact is, IMO where both the full preterists, as well as the rabid anti-preterists, err.
     
  20. ToServe

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    Friend, Jesus said no other sign will be given this generation within the context of the Old Covenant nation, except the sign of Jonah the prophet. (Matthew 12:39, 16:4).

    Jesus said this twice. Therefore the resurrection of Christ and the temple vail being torn in two is the demarcation line between the Old that passed and the New when the graves of OT saints were immediately opened after Christ's resurrection that is the sign of Jonah.

    You are mistaken because Jesus says on two separate occassions that his resurrection marked the change when his saying of destroy this Temple and I will raise it up in three days. Two temple theology cannot exist after the sign of Jonah was given that OT nation/generation.

    Historically significant but not spiritually significant where scripture is very silent on it and none of the Apostles mention it in their letters. Either they all died before the event or it was not a significant spiritual event marker. Either way God would have made it explicit through his disciples and later Apostles. Apostle John who out lived all disciples does not explicitly mention the destruction of a abominable temple owing to a desolate priestly house as a spiritual event marker within the context of covenant eschatology.

    The New Testament age was already there after the sign of Jonah for the hour had already come.

    The sign of Jonah was Christ's key teaching.

    Ephessians 4:8-11
    8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

    9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,

    There was no two temple, no two peoples OT and NT, no two Spirits, no two hopes, no two faiths both Old and New for scripture explicitly teaches -

    4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    Clearly after Christ's ascension the graves were opened and the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 realised.

    To claim that there existed two temples, two peoples OT and NT, two Spirits, two hopes, two faiths both Old and New from the Cross of Christ until the wars of 70AD is paradoxical indeed!

    Incorrect friend, this happened after the sign of Jonah was given the OT nation/generation, that is after Christ's resurrection mentioned in Matthew 27:51-53.

    53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection

    That hour had arrived for Daniel's OT people (Daniel 12:1-4) and this was according to the gifts that were given those OT saints mentioned in Ephessians 4:8. 70AD eschatology has absolutely no significance as a spiritual marker separating the Old from the New. You would need to push that narrative whilst ignoring what scripture teaches explicitly.

    I would agree with your final comment but politely and with very good reason reject a 70AD OT/NT covenant separation year.

    Sign of Jonah, Sign of Jonah, Sign of Jonah.

    The Cross is what expired the Old and had brought in the New with the New Temple, the New form of worship, the New Daily Sacrifices through the Living Stones.

    Romans 12:1
    Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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