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Featured LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LittleLambofJesus, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Yes, it appears they are

    71.4%
  2. No they are not

    14.3%
  3. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
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  4. Other [please explain]

    14.3%
  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I have already pretty much harmonized the 3 chapters of the Olivet Discourse and I believe I have proved that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are indeed one in the same events.
    [The general view is that Luke's Jerusalem discourses are speaking of 70ad and differ from Matt 24 and Mar 13]


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized
    LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]

    Harmonization of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation and Josephus


    I am going to attempt to tie these 3 chapters in with Revelation and show that Luke and Revelation are the same event [as is Matt 24 and Luke 13]

    Here are the 3 chapters of Luke's Jerusalem discourse I have been working on:

    Luke 19:
    39 And some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”

    40 And answering He said, “I say to you that if these will be silent, the stones will cry out.”

    41 And as He nears<1448>, beholding the City, and He laments<2799> over Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this,
    the toward peace of Thee,
    now yet it was hid<2928> from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies<2190> shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work<5482> to Thee
    and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee,
    and pressing<4912> Thee from-every-side<3840>.
    44 And shall be leveling<1474> Thee and Thy offspring<5043> in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving<863> stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the season<2540> of the visitation<1984> of Thee".


    Luke 21:
    20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded<2124> by war-troops<4760>,
    then be knowing that come nigh<1448> desolating<2050> of Her
    21 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her.
    22 For these are the days of avenging<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written.
    23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people.
    24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    Luke 23:
    27 And a great multitude of the people followed<190> Him, and of women, who were wailing<2875> and lamenting<2354> for Him.
    28 And having turned to them, Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem! do not be weeping<2799> for Me,
    morely be weeping<2799> for yourselves and for your children.
    29 That behold! are coming days in which they shall be declaring, ‘blessed/happy are the barren ones<4723> and the wombs<2836> which not bear, and breasts that never nursed<5142>.’
    30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to say to the mountains, 'Fall upon us!'and to the hills, 'Cover us!'
    31 That if in the wet<5200> wood<3586> these they are doing, in the dry<3584> what my be becoming

    POST #6
    Luke 23:28-30 Luke 21:21
    "mountains"

    POST # 7
    Luke 19:11 Luke 21:20-24 Luke 23:28

    "Jerusalem" and "new Jerusalem"<2419>
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
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  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    The disciples asked about more than the destruction of the temple, but also of the end of the age - his second coming. Jesus answered both questions, not just the first one. They don't happen at the same time as Preterists misinterpret.
     
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  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Thank you for responding.
    Yes I know.
    But now I want to show that Luke also ties in with Revelation and 70ad, and what this thread will be mainly focusing on.


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  4. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The description of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and the destruction of the temple Herod built may be harmonized with a text about the Roman siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple described by Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews," written in the first century. There was such pain and suffering from famine and battle wounds, people wanted to die.

    Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Books 5 and 6, The siege and capture of Jerusalem. Free book:
    The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    What verses in Revelation, seeing as Revelation was written a couple decades after the temple was destroyed?
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I have a discussion thread on Hosea 10, Luke 23:30 and Revelation 6:16 for those interested
    Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."


    The same exact form of #3735 used in Luke 23:30 is used in 3 other verses, including 1 time in Revelation


    Luke 23:
    28 And having turned to them, Jesus said,
    Daughters of Jerusalem! do not be weeping for Me, morely be weeping for yourselves and for your children".
    30 "Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains<3735>
    'be falling upon us!' and to the hills 'cover us!'".

    Revelation 6:16
    And they are saying to the mountains<3735> and to the rocks;
    'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"
    [Hosea 10:8 Luke 23:30]
    The same exact form of #3735 used in Luke 21:21 is used in 7 verses.

    3 of those in the Temple Discourse:

    Luke 21:21
    then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains<3735>

    Matthew 24:16
    then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains<3735>
    Mark 13:14
    then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains<3735>

    And 2 in Revelation


    Revelation 16:20
    Then every island fled away, and the mountains<3735> were not found.
    Revelation 17:9
    “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains<3735> on which the Woman sits



    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Yes and thanks for that.

    This word for Jerusalem<2419> is used only 1 time each in Matt and Mar [Mark 11:1].
    The rest in Luke, Acts, 8 times in the Epistles and 3 times in Revelation.


    Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
    2419. Hierousalem of Hebrew origin (3389); Hierusalem (i.e. Jerushalem), the capitol of Palestine:--Jerusalem. Compare 2414.


    Luke 19:11
    Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem<2419> and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.
    Luke 21
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem<2419> surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
    24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
    And Jerusalem<2419> will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    Luke 23:28
    But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem<2419>,weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children".

    And in Matthew 24:

    Matthew 23:37
    “O Jerusalem<2419>, Jerusalem<2419>, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

    Used 3 times in Revelation as "the New Jerusalem"

    Revelation 3:12

    “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem<2419>, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

    Revelation 21:2
    and I, John, saw the holy city -- New Jerusalem<2419> -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;
    Revelation 21:10
    and he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and did shew to me the great City, the holy Jerusalem<2419>, coming down out of the heaven from God,


    .


     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    The exact word form for City<4172> in Luke 19:41 is not used in the Olivet Discourse.

    Luke 19:41And as He nears<1448>, beholding the City<4172>, and He laments<2799> over Her,

    Luke 21:24
    And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;

    and Jerusalem<2419> will be trampled<3961> by Nations,
    until fulfilled the times/seasons of Nations
    [Revelation 11:2]


    The exact word form of #4172 used in Luke 19:41 occurs 7 times in Revelation

    Revelation 11:
    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rise! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court outside the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations.

    And the holy City<4172> they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months months.


    Now this is interesting.
    Both Luke 21:20 and Revelation 20 use the greek word <2944>.


    Luke 21
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem<2419> surrounded<2944> by armies,
    then know that nigh at hand is the desolation of Her.


    Revelation 20:9
    and they did go up over the breadth of the land,
    and did surround<2944> the camp of the saints, and the beloved City<4172>,
    and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

    Revelation 21:
    2 And I saw the holy City<4172>, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride having been adorned for her husband.

    10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and he showed me the holy City<4172> Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    15 And the one speaking with me had a golden measuring reed, so that he could measure the City<4172>, and its gates, and its wall.
    16 And the City lies foursquare, and its length the same as also the width.
    And he measured the City<4172> with the reed at twelve thousand stadia.d The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
    17 And he measured its wall, one hundred forty-four cubits,e the measure of man, that is of the Messenger.
    Revelation 22:14

    'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the Tree of the Life, and by the gates they may enter into the City<4172>


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Before I continue with harmonizing Luke's gospel with Revelation, I have found there are 2 different Greek words used for Jerusalem in the NT.

    Jerusalem<2414> is primarily used in Acts, Matt and John

    2414. Hierosoluma
    hee-er-os-ol'-oo-mah of Hebrew origin (3389); Hierosolyma (i.e. Jerushalaim},
    the capitol of Palestine:--Jerusalem. Compare 2419.
    Strong's Number G2414 matches the Greek (Hierosolyma),
    which occurs 59 times in 59 verses

    10 chapters in Acts----- 18 verses
    1, 8, 11, 13, 18, 20, 21, 25, 26, 28,
    8 chapters in Matt------- 12 verses
    2, 3, 4, 5, 15, 16, 20, 21
    7 chapters in John------- 12 verses
    1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11,12
    5 chapters in Mark------- 9 verses
    3, 7, 10, 11, 15
    4 chapters in Luke-------- 5 verses
    2, 18,19,23
    2 chapters in Galatians--- 3 verses
    1 and 2
    ============================

    The other Jerusalem<2414> is primarily used in Luke and Acts,
    and is the one used for the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation and "above and heavenly" in Galatians and Hebrews


    2419. Hierousalem hee-er-oo-sal-ame' of Hebrew origin (3389); Hierusalem (i.e. Jerushalem),
    the capitol of Palestine:--Jerusalem. Compare 2414.
    Strong's Number G2419 matches the Greek (Ierousalēm),
    which occurs 83 times in 80 verses

    26 chapters Luke-------- 27 verses
    25 chapters Acts-------- 40 verses
    2 chapters Revelation---- 3 verses
    1 chapter Matthew------- 1 verses
    1 chapter Mark------------1 verses
    1 chapter Romans--------4 verses
    1 chapter 1 Corin--------- 1 verse
    1 chapter Galatians------ 2 verses
    1 chapter Hebrews------ 1 verse
    0 chapters for John------ 0

    Galatians 4:26
    and the Jerusalem<2419> above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
    Hebrews 12:22
    But ye came to Mount Zion, and to a City of the living God, to the Heavenly Jerusalem<2419>, and to myriads of Messengers,

    Revelation 3:12
    “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem<2419>, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

    Revelation 21:2
    2 Then I, John,[fn] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem<2419>, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[fn] Jerusalem<2419>, descending out of heaven from God,
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:3,34 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? , I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

    The disciples must have misinterpreted Jesus as well, right? Otherwise, why would they have written the following:

    According to Paul:

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come
    According to Peter
    1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.
    According to John
    1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

    According to James
    James 5:8 also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Just as in the NT, there are also 2 different Hebrew words for Jerusalem in the OT
    [Now that we got the 2 Jerusalems taken care, time to continue on with Luke and Revelation]

    2 Jerusalems in the OT


    3389 Yruwshalaim yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im rarely Yruwshalayim {yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim};
    a dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the former reading, seems to be that of 3390)); probably from (the passive participle of) 3384 and 7999; founded peaceful; Jerushalaim or Jerushalem,
    the capital city of Palestine:--Jerusalem. "jerusalem"
    occurs 821 times in 772 verses in the NKJV.

    1st time used:

    Joshua 10:1
    Now it came to pass when Adoni-Zedek king of Yruwshalaim<3389> heard how Joshua had taken Ai and had utterly destroyed it—as he had done to Jericho and its king, so he had done to Ai and its king—and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel and were among them,


    Last time used

    Malachi 3:4
    Then shall the offering of Judah and Yruwshalaim<3389> be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.


    3390 Yruwshalem yer-oo-shaw-lame' (Chald)
    Jerusalem = "teaching of peace" the chief city of Palestine and capital of the united kingdom and the nation of Judah after the split
    Strong's Number H3390 matches the Hebrew יְרוּשְׁלֵם (Yĕruwshalem (Chald)),
    which occurs 26 times in 25 verses

    Used only in Ezra[4 chapters, 22 verses] and Daniel [3 chapters 3 verses]

    Ezra 4:8
    Rehum[fn] the commander and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Yruwshalem<3390> to King Artaxerxes in this fashion:

    Daniel 6:10
    Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Yruwshalem<3390>, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Thanks for posting Claninja.
    Have you seen this thread I created "this generation" at the link below?


    "THIS GENERATION" in Bible

    Matthew 24:34
    Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one,
    till ever all these may be becoming.

    amhn legw umin ou mh parelqh h genea auth
    ewV an panta tauta genhtai

    Mark 13:30
    Amen I am saying to ye not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one
    until of which any all these may be becoming

    amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh h genea auth
    mecriV ou panta tauta genhtai

    Luke 21:32
    “Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be passing-away the generation , this-one,
    till ever all things may be becoming.

    amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh h genea auth
    ewV an panta genhtai




    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Let's continue with Luke.

    #2799 that is used in Luke 19 and 23, are used in only 2 verses of Matt and 4 verses in Mark,[Peter and the cock crowing], none in the Olivet Discourse


    2799. klaio klah of uncertain affinity;
    to sob, i.e. wail aloud (whereas 1145 is rather to cry silently):--bewail, weep.

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears<1448>, beholding the City, and He weeps<2799> over Her,

    Luke 23:
    27 And a great multitude of the people followed<190> Him, and of women, who were wailing<2875> and lamenting<2354> for Him.
    28 And having turned to them, Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem! do not be weeping<2799> for Me, morely be weeping<2799> for yourselves and for your children.


    It is used in only 2 chapters of Revelation concerning the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the Great City

    Revelation 5:
    4 And I was weeping<2799> much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,
    5 and one of the elders saith to me, 'weep<2799> not!
    Behold! overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;

    Revelation 18:
    9 And the kings of the land, the ones having committed sexual immorality and having lived luxuriously with Her, will weep<2799> and will wail for Her when they see the smoke of Her burning,

    11 And the merchants of the land weep<2799> and mourn for her, because no one buys their cargo any longer—

    15 The merchants of these things having been enriched from Her will stand from afar, weeping<2799> and mourning because of the fear of Her torment,

    19 And they cast dust upon their heads, and they were crying out, weeping<2799> and mourning, saying:
    “Woe, woe, the great City,
    in which all those having ships in the sea
    were enriched through her wealth!
    For in one hour She has been brought to desolation.”
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    #2875 used in 8 verses. 5 in the Gospels and 2 times in Revelation

    2875. kopto kop'-to a primary verb;
    to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:--cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail. Compare the base of 5114.
    Strong's Number G2875 matches the Greek κόπτω (koptō), which occurs 10 times in 8 verses


    Matthew 24:30
    “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall be wailing<2875>,
    and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Revelation 1:7]

    Luke 23:
    27 And a great multitude of the people followed<190> Him, and of women, who were wailing<2875> and lamenting<2354> for Him.


    2 times in Revelation:

    Revelation 1:7
    Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
    And all the tribes of the land shall be wailing<2875> over Him. Even so, Amen.

    Revelation 18:9
    “The kings of the land who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with Her <2799> shall be weeping and shall be wailing<2875> over Her, when they see the smoke of Her burning,

    #2354 used in 4 verses of the Gospels. 1 in Matt, 2 in Luke and 1 in John.


    Luke 23:27
    And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and of women, they grieved<2875> and wail/dirg<2354> for Him.

    Matthew 11:17
    “and saying: ‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance;
    We wail/dirg<2354>, And not ye grieve<2875>.’

    Luke 7:32
    “They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying: ‘We played the flute to ye, And not ye dance;
    We wail/dirge<2354> to ye, And not ye weep.’

    John 16:20
    “Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and wail<2354>, but the yet world shall be rejoicing;
    and you will be sorrowed , but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Thanks for your post.

    The purpose of this thread is not to determine when Revelation was visioned and written.
    Here is a poll thread on that for those interested:

    When was the Book of Revelation written?

    When was the Book of Revelation written?
    When was the Book of Revelation written?


      • Post 70 AD
        24 vote(s) 63.2%
      • Pre 70 AD
        14 vote(s) 36.8%
     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    How 14% of voters can say pre 70 AD is just ignorance. According to ancient writers shortly after the fact, John was condemned to Patmos by Domitian who was in power from 81 to 96 AD.
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Please take that to another thread...thank you


    .
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Luke 21:
    22 For these are the days of avenging<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written.
    23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
    For there will be great distress<318> upon the land and wrath <3709>on this people.


    Wrath #3709 is only used in 5 verses of the Gospels
    The verse in Matthew is used against the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.


    Matthew 3:7
    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
    “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<3709>?


    Revelation 11:18 uses the same exact form of the word #3709 as in Luke 21:23.

    Revelation 11:18
    [Matthew 3:7 Luke 21:23]
    The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”



    .
     
  19. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    That's a silly statement seeing as I'm responding to your post. But, I'm done anyway.
     
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Sorry you feel that way.
    As I said, this thread is primarily concerning Luke and the book of Revelation, and perhaps it's relation to 70ad, not the dating of Revelation


    .
     
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