Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

[JohnRabbit]

just noticed...the "dead" are conscious and still aware.

not according to the psalmist, speaking of man at death!


Psalms 146:4(KJV)
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.



in that very day his thoughts perish = the "dead" are conscious


if what you say is true, we have a contradiction?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What I find odd about that parable is the rich man didn't break any laws etc.
He just ignored Lazarus, and that divided them. Why?

Perhaps the Rich Man went by the Law of Moses and Lazarus by the faith that is of Abraham and Jesus?

Who do or others think Jesus was referring to in this parable of Luke 16?

Mat 3:9
"and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.'
For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luk 16:29
"Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'




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[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by brinny

just noticed...the "dead" are conscious and still aware.
​

not according to the psalmist, speaking of man at death!


Psalms 146:4(KJV)
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.



in that very day his thoughts perish = the "dead" are conscious


if what you say is true, we have a contradiction?

God forbid!



.

 

[paul becke]

If he didn't break any laws, why is he in the predicament he finds himself?

By refusing aid to Lazarus, the poor man, the rich man broke both the first and second commandment. 'Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the Law and the Prophets.' Matthew 22:40

'Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.' Romans 13:10

'And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Matthew 25:40

Consonant with these teachings, giving practical help to the afflicted is the sole criterion which God, himself, has given in the whole of Scripture, on the basis of which we will be judged.

'If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.' 1 John 4:20

As Pope Francis has mentioned, it's not primarily about a rule-book, the letter of the Law, but about an encounter - with the person of Christ, through the Holy Spirit. Just as the Jewish people of old were incapable of keeping the Law perfectly, neither are we.

Though, if we live our lives in a spirit of charity, of generous, disinterested self-giving to our fellows, we shall become increasingly observant, whether consciously or not, of either the formal teachings of Christ in Scripture and the Church, or of such demands upon us as Christ makes informally through the Holy Spirit - and in which the most self-righteously punctilious in their observance will have no say at all.

This parable is ultimately based on the cardinal truth, that it is upon the disposition of our heart, not on rules and regulations that we shall be judged:

'Where your treasure is, there your heart will your heart be also.' Matthew 6:21

As a general rule, the rich do not come out of the Bible with a good image; indeed, they are constantly held up, notably, by the Psalmist and the prophets, as figures of wickedness; the poor as the true Israel, the virtuous man. And I'm afraid, pace our new Pope Francis, the Virgin Mary's Magnificat sounds awfully like a fire-brand's version of an ideology of poverty.

'Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”' Matthew 9:13

I've always had the impression that Jesus was laying on the sarcasm rather heavily in the last sentence, above.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

If he didn't break any laws, why is he in the predicament he finds himself?
​

By refusing aid to Lazarus, the poor man, the rich man broke both the first and second commandment. 'Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the Law and the Prophets.' Matthew 22:40

'Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.' Romans 13:10

'And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Matthew 25:40

Consonant with these teachings, giving practical help to the afflicted is the sole criterion which God, himself, has given in the whole of Scripture, on the basis of which we will be judged.

'If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.' 1 John 4:20

As Pope Francis has mentioned, it's not primarily about a rule-book, the letter of the Law, but about an encounter - with the person of Christ, through the Holy Spirit. Just as the Jewish people of old were incapable of keeping the Law perfectly, neither are we.

Though, if we live our lives in a spirit of charity, of generous, disinterested self-giving to our fellows, we shall become increasingly observant, whether consciously or not, of either the formal teachings of Christ in Scripture and the Church, or of such demands upon us as Christ makes informally through the Holy Spirit - and in which the most self-righteously punctilious in their observance will have no say at all.

This parable is ultimately based on the cardinal truth, that it is upon the disposition of our heart, not on rules and regulations that we shall be judged:

'Where your treasure is, there your heart will your heart be also.' Matthew 6:21

As a general rule, the rich do not come out of the Bible with a good image; indeed, they are constantly held up, notably, by the Psalmist and the prophets, as figures of wickedness; the poor as the true Israel, the virtuous man. And I'm afraid, pace our new Pope Francis, the Virgin Mary's Magnificat sounds awfully like a fire-brand's version of an ideology of poverty.

'Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”' Matthew 9:13

I've always had the impression that Jesus was laying on the sarcasm rather heavily in the last sentence, above.

Great post and thanks for responding......



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[LittleLambofJesus]

bump for more discussion.
Please read the OP first before responding. Thanks


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[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What I find odd about that parable is the rich man didn't break any laws etc.
He just ignored Lazarus, and that divided them. Why?

By refusing aid to Lazarus, the poor man, the rich man broke both the first and second commandment. 'Upon these two commandments hang the whole of the Law and the Prophets.' Matthew 22:40

'Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.' Romans 13:10

'And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Matthew 25:40

Consonant with these teachings, giving practical help to the afflicted is the sole criterion which God, himself, has given in the whole of Scripture, on the basis of which we will be judged.

'If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.' 1 John 4:20

As Pope Francis has mentioned, it's not primarily about a rule-book, the letter of the Law, but about an encounter - with the person of Christ, through the Holy Spirit. Just as the Jewish people of old were incapable of keeping the Law perfectly, neither are we.

Though, if we live our lives in a spirit of charity, of generous, disinterested self-giving to our fellows, we shall become increasingly observant, whether consciously or not, of either the formal teachings of Christ in Scripture and the Church, or of such demands upon us as Christ makes informally through the Holy Spirit - and in which the most self-righteously punctilious in their observance will have no say at all.

This parable is ultimately based on the cardinal truth, that it is upon the disposition of our heart, not on rules and regulations that we shall be judged:

'Where your treasure is, there your heart will your heart be also.' Matthew 6:21

As a general rule, the rich do not come out of the Bible with a good image; indeed, they are constantly held up, notably, by the Psalmist and the prophets, as figures of wickedness; the poor as the true Israel, the virtuous man. And I'm afraid, pace our new Pope Francis, the Virgin Mary's Magnificat sounds awfully like a fire-brand's version of an ideology of poverty.

'Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”' Matthew 9:13

I've always had the impression that Jesus was laying on the sarcasm rather heavily in the last sentence, above.

That brings up another question for me because I think that the answer above is accurate.....so why did Jesus refuse the Phenecean (sp?) woman until she pointed out that even the dogs received crumbs....?.....
Jesus points to faith as being the dividing line that passes over as was suggested by lloj. After death the bridge no longer exists.
They had Moses and the prophets / we have the one risen from the dead...on the road to Emaus Jesus connected the dots so we are beyond excuse.

edit: it could be inferred that Jesus is the rich man and the woman as Lazarus...hence the question


..................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What I find odd about that parable is the rich man didn't break any laws etc.
He just ignored Lazarus, and that divided them. Why?

That depends on who the rich man is symbolizing.
Notice the ones that wanted to kill Lazarus because Jesus raised him from the dead.

John 12:10
Yet the Chief-Priests counsel that also Lazarus they may be killing.


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[squint]

The rich man and Lazarus was also accounted here, except the man didn't physically die as in the other account:

Luke 11:
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

That is why the 'rich man' was whining to Abraham, telling lies, wanting his house back.

In the 'rich man' account there was a chasm involved. Wicked spirits do not gain entrance to where Lazarus went, and can not. They are confined here to the earth, where they inhabit MAN.

s

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The rich man and Lazarus was also accounted here, except the man didn't physically die as in the other account:

Luke 11:
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

That is why the 'rich man' was whining to Abraham, telling lies, wanting his house back.

In the 'rich man' account there was a chasm involved. Wicked spirits do not gain entrance to where Lazarus went, and can not. They are confined here to the earth, where they inhabit MAN.

s

I see the Rich Man as symbolizing the OC House of Judah, which had the Priesthood.

Not the comman Jews, but the Jewish rulers and priests.

Remember this event in Acts 19 when 7 Jews tried to exorcise an evil spirit thru the Jesus that Paul preache ?

Acts 19:

11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.”
14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.
15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”
16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all[a] of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks.
And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled.


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[squint]

I see the Rich Man as symbolizing the OC House of Judah, which had the Priesthood.

Not the comman Jews, but the Jewish rulers and priests.

Remember this event in Acts 19 when 7 Jews tried to exorcise an evil spirit thru the Jesus that Paul preache ?

Acts 19:

11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.”
14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.
15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”
16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all[a] of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks.
And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled.

.

I prefer all the parties on the table for viewing in theology understandings, as you well know by now.

We also know 'how' the religious hierarchy got into their dire position don't we? Mark 4:15 takes us to a direct hit on thee real culprit.

Which resulted in the Jewish hierarchy becoming this, internally:

Luke 11:39
And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

 

[riverrat]

Who or what is Lazarus symbolizing in that parable in your view? Thanks

Why do you think it is a parable?

 

[BobRyan]

I have a rather lenghthy study on this, what I call "Covenantle" parable in Luke 16.

There is an interesting greek word used here that is only found this 1 time in the NT/NC.

How do others here view this "great chasm" shown in Luke 16:26?.

I am thinking the english rendering of this word is more from the transliterated greek word "casma".

Thanks for any response.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham vs Moses

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm/casma <5490> hath been established. So that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:26 kai epi pasin toutoiV metaxu hmwn kai umwn casma mega esthriktai opwV oi qelonteV diabhnai *enteuqen proV umaV mh dunwntai mhde oi ekeiqen proV hmaV diaperwsin

Strong's Number G5490 matches the Greek &#967;&#8049;&#963;&#956;&#945; (chasma), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the KJV

5490. chasma khas'-mah from a form of an obsolete primary chao (to "gape" or "yawn"); a "chasm" or vacancy (impassable interval):--gulf.

The parable has Abraham as sovereign over all the dead saints.

it is interesting that the rich man only asks for one of the dead saints to go back and speak to the living. But Abraham's response is that this can only happen if the dead are resurrected - raised from the dead... and that doing so will not convince those who have rejected the scriptures given to us by God through Moses.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The parable has Abraham as sovereign over all the dead saints.

it is interesting that the rich man only asks for one of the dead saints to go back and speak to the living.
But Abraham's response is that this can only happen if the dead are resurrected - raised from the dead... and that doing so will not convince those who have rejected the scriptures given to us by God through Moses.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you for your response.

Both Lazarus, Jesus and the 2 witnesses were "resurrected" after 3 days in the Christian NT, except Lazarus isn't shown dying later and ascending except in this parable.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7461118/#post54553876
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

John 11:
39 Jesus is saying "take away ye! the stone".
Martha is saying to Him, the sister of the one having deceased "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Reve 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "Ascend ye here!".
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them, the enemies of them.


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[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Who or what is Lazarus symbolizing in that parable in your view? Thanks

Why do you think it is a parable?

Why do you think it isn't?

 

[Traveling teacher]

tradition is hard to break
First of all I dont believe this is a parable....
most of the time the bible says if it is a parable
Jesus just said there were 2 men Lazurus and the rich man....
i believe these were real men and the rich man had real brothers


if you read your bible those were headings put in by men

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Notice it isn't only the rich man, but it apnpears there may be people with him?

The word is plural.....us...ye

Luke 16:26
And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm/gulf hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

 

[Traveling teacher]

I have a rather lenghthy study on this, what I call "Covenantle" parable in Luke 16.

There is an interesting greek word used here that is only found this 1 time in the NT/NC.

How do others here view this "great chasm" shown in Luke 16:26?.

I am thinking the english rendering of this word is more from the transliterated greek word "casma".

Thanks for any response.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham vs Moses

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm/casma <5490> hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

Strong's Number G5490 matches the Greek (chasma), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the KJV

I woudnt get too caught up in the chasm word
and woudnt spiritualize too many things as symbolism

In the OT there is a word for hell...Sheol
in greek it is Gahena fire(not sure if Gehena is referring to the lake of fire)
numbers 16:31-32
korah and his followers ware swallowed up by the earth into Sheol because of rebellion
psalm 9:17
wicked throne into hell
but also may refer to the entire realm that Jesus was referring to
of righteous and wicked

this Grave or Sheol is divided into 2 regions
1. Abrahams busom....or Jesus called it Paradise
Luke 23:43 43Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in
paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:3-4 3And I know that this man-...was caught up to paradise
2. Place of fire and torments...what we would call hell
this is where the rich man was and is referred to as the first death
this sheol of the wicked is where Jesus crossed this gulf
and preached to the sinners who were lost in the FLOOD
and aparently never heard the gospel from NOAH
1 PETER 4:19-20
he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

so aparently this SHEOL that Jesus is referring to has 2 sides
paradise and torment and they can comunicate.....

this is the first death
the 2nd death is spoken of in revelation
revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I woudnt get too caught up in the chasm word
and woudnt spiritualize too many things as symbolism

In the OT there is a word for hell...Sheol
in greek it is Gahena fire
numbers 16:31-32
korah and his followers ware swallowed up by the earth into Sheol because of rebellion
psalm 9:17
wicked throne into hell
but also may refer to the entire realm that Jesus was referring to
of righteous and wicked

this Grave or Sheol is divided into 2 regions
1. Abrahams busom....or Jesus called it Paradise
Luke 23:43 43Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in
paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:3-4 3And I know that this man-...was caught up to paradise
2. Place of fire and torments...what we would call hell
this is where the rich man was and is referred to as the first death
this sheol of the wicked is where Jesus crossed this gulf
and preached to the sinners who were lost in the FLOOD
and aparently never heard the gospel from NOAH
1 PETER 4:19-20
he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

so aparently this SHEOL that Jesus is referring to has 2 sides
paradise and torment and they can comunicate.....

this is the first death
the 2nd death is spoken of in revelation
revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Thank you for posting.
There are 2 different greek words used for "crossing"
What do others think about the greek word #1276 Luke uses in this verse?

Luke 16:26
And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm/gulf hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over<1224> hence toward ye no may be able,
neither thence toward us may be ferrying<1276>

1224. diabaino dee-ab-ah'-ee-no from 1223 and the base of 939; to cross:--come over, pass (through).
1276. diaperao dee-ap-er-ah'-o from 1223 and a derivative of the base of 4008; to cross entirely:--go over, pass (over), sail over.

 

[Traveling teacher]

What is the great gulf symbolizing to you and others?
That is what the thread is about. Thanks

...

i believe the gulf is what Jesus crossed when he preached to the sinners
in Noahs day and brought out those who repented
1 PETER 4:19
he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
aparently according to Epehesians some repented
ephesians 4:8-9
when He assended he led captivity captive
What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?