Luke 13

[timlamb]

In another thread I went through Matthew 13, I find Luke 13 to be even more decisive:

Luke 13

Repent or Perish

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

The requirement of repentance

6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "

The Father gave the Son permission to try to bring fruit out of us, but the time is limited.

The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

Good question, look at Jesus response:

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Even the narrow door takes effort, the Kingdom is not for all. And once the door is shut, it is over!

29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

Some who think they have made it have not, and some who think they are not good enough will be at the front of the table.

Matthew 13 and Luke 13, from Jesus own words the truth about salvation. It is hard teaching but He is the Christ, and He shall be the judge, and He knows the will of the Father and He carries it out.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
†. Luke 13:4-5 . . And what about the eighteen men who died when a tower of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will also perish.

The "tower" of Siloam wasn't necessarily a structure like the Washington Monument. The Greek word for tower in that passage is purgos (poor'-gos) which is an ambiguous word that can mean not only an isolated structure like a skyscraper; but also a special battlement which protrudes from the face of a castle's curtain wall— consisting of crenellations, merlons, and machicolations —providing occupants a tactical advantage for observing and defending the curtain wall's exterior face. Sometimes though, towers were simply architectural facades that made otherwise insipid stone walls aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

In the days prior to steel reinforcing bar, structural steel beams, and modern concrete; towers (which were often constructed of either stones or bricks) weren't all that stable, and sometimes crumbled; thus detaching themselves from the curtain wall like an old swallow's nest; resulting in pieces raining down on whoever happened to be standing below. The tower of Lk 13:4-5 was very likely a decorative part of an architectural enclosure surrounding the pool of Siloam (John 9:7).

The people who were killed when that tower collapsed, weren't killed by the hand of God. No, they were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time; viz: it was just dumb luck. It's like when people plan all month for a camping trip in the mountains. Upon arrival, they set up camp; and after lunch, walk a hiking trail. Just then, a tree limb, that's been silently growing in the forest for who knows how many years, suddenly decides to break off and fall to earth right then; subsequently killing one of the campers just as they walk under it. One minute earlier and it would have missed. One minute later and it would have missed. But no, the limb falls right on cue as if the forces of nature conspired to hold that tree limb in place till just the right moment; waiting for that one specific person to walk under it.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2007; nineteen year-old Ramiro Gonzalez was returning home to Nyssa Oregon from a week-end honeymoon in northern California with his bride Idalia asleep in the back seat when their 1997 Pontiac Grand Am hit a cow twenty miles east of Burns. The Pontiac went off the road, through a fence, and burst into flames. Idalia escaped with only minor injuries, but Ramiro died at the Ste. Charles Medical Center in Bend the very next day.

Ramiro and his bride didn't get to live in a home of their own for even one single minute of their marriage— never had a baby, never joined the PTA, never saved for college, never went to ballet lessons, nor to soccer or little league, never went on family picnics, never took home movies and photos at Christmas, Easter, or birthdays, never went to the beach and built sand castles —no, their entire future, and all their dreams of family life, were shattered in an instant by a lousy cow; and Ramiro wasn't even 20 years old yet— he could have lived another fifty.

March 20, 2008; fifty-seven year old Judy Kay Zagorski, of Pigeon, Michigan, was sitting in the front seat of her father's boat going 25 knots on the Atlantic Ocean side of Vaca Key in Florida, when a Spotted Eagle Ray, with a wingspan of 5 to 6 feet; leaped up out of the water— for who knows what reason —and collided with Zagorski, knocking her backwards onto the deck of the boat. She died from the impact. Judy's sister, standing next to her, was not injured.

On a November morning in 1998, Alan Pakula climbed into his Volvo station wagon and began the 100-mile drive from Manhattan to his Long Island house. The acclaimed movie director of Sophie's Choice, All The President's Men, and The Pelican Brief, had made that trip countless times with no incident.

As the 70 year-old Pakula neared exit 49 on the Long Island Expressway just before noon, the tires of a vehicle ahead of him flipped a 7-foot piece of steel rod into the air. Within seconds, the rod shot through Pakula's windshield, smashing into his forehead, killing him almost instantly.

Death often comes when people least expect it. As a rule, they don't usually get up in the morning planning it to be their last day on earth. The 169,752 killed, and 127,294 listed as missing, in more than eleven countries by the tsunami of 2004, were taken by surprise, and given no warning it was to be their last day on earth.

The 2,829 people who perished in a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and the 189 who died in the Pentagon, didn't go in to work expecting their lives to end before lunch that day. No, people's lives often end while they still have obligations and commitments, things to do, places to go, and people to see; when a car accident, train wreck, act of nature, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or stroke puts an abrupt end to every plan they ever made.

December 8, 2004, one of my favorite metal guitar gods, Darrell "Dimebag" Abbott, that axe-shredding cowboy from the infernal regions, was murdered onstage by a deranged fan upset about Pantera's break-up. Darrell got up that day thinking only of the gig he would perform at the Alrosa Village in Columbus Ohio with his new group Damageplan; with no clue it was to be his last day on earth. The Dime was only a measly 38 years old. He could have lived another forty more.

Freak accidents like the tower of Siloam, and circumstances beyond people's control like the Galileans of Luke 13:1 can happen to anybody. I don't think Jesus is saying that repentance will protect people from dying in a freak accident or in circumstances beyond their control, but rather, that if they don't accept the Gospel now as per John 3:14-18, while they have the chance to do so; then they risk being caught off guard by sudden death in a freak accident, or trapped in circumstances beyond their control, where there may be neither time nor convenience to reconsider and change their minds; and they'll find themselves in Hell a lot quicker than they ever expected.

†. Acts 24:25 . . As Paul discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said: That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.

Big mistake. Don't ever take the Bible's God for granted.

†. 2Cor 6:2 . . For he says: In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you. I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

†. Heb 3:15 . .While it is said "Today" if you hear His voice; do not stiffen your resolve.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[timlamb]

Good point WH, repentance is for the saving of the Soul not the life.
And that opportunity ends with life. Scripture tells us we are changed at death. We gain dimentions, spiritual dimentions, and become Christ-like, THAT IS, those who have repented. Those who die unrepentant, do not become Christ-like, they do not gain in fact what they have will be taken away.

 

[timlamb]

Isn't there one brave Universalist that will either give me a debate on this or admit the scripture to be compelling.

Another thing that should be noticed. Universalist scripture quotes are usually 1 to 3 verses taken from context. It is reletively easy to find complete parables or even chapters that focus on the course of salvation and the consequences of the lost.

Jesus spoke many times more about Hell than He did about Heaven and never once did He suggest that Hell was a temporary condition.

 

[timlamb]

What, no comment? does this mean we are all in agreement on the topic?

 

[heavensprings]

Jesus spoke many times more about Hell than He did about Heaven and never once did He suggest that Hell was a temporary condition.

We aren't on agreement on this..

In all the gospels Jesus spoke of Gehenna roughly 11 times.

Gehenna is not mentioned in the Old Testament or by John, Paul, Peter, Jude, or James in all their writings (except once indirectly regarding the tongue—Ja. 3:6). Nor is it mentioned in the book of Acts or Hebrews. How can such a horrible fate—to which most people are destined—not be warned against everywhere?

Jesus referred to 'Hades' only once.

The word "heaven" is found a total of 277 times in the New Testament.

Matthew 25:46 confirms the temporary nature of God’s judgment. The Greek word, translated “punishment,” is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, notes:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.

 

[timlamb]

We aren't on agreement on this..

In all the gospels Jesus spoke of Gehenna roughly 11 times.

Gehenna is not mentioned in the Old Testament or by John, Paul, Peter, Jude, or James in all their writings (except once indirectly regarding the tongue—Ja. 3:6). Nor is it mentioned in the book of Acts or Hebrews. How can such a horrible fate—to which most people are destined—not be warned against everywhere?

Jesus referred to 'Hades' only once.

The word "heaven" is found a total of 277 times in the New Testament.

Matthew 25:46 confirms the temporary nature of God’s judgment. The Greek word, translated “punishment,” is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, notes:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.

Oh come on, what about Luke 13?

Anyway, I am refering to Jesus not the whole NT. And He may not have used the word, it was the references to it, the Lake of Fire, the second death, even when He didn't call it by name just the punishment of the wicked or those who don't follow. The subject was brought up many times but never with exit involved.

I'm leaving for a long weekend, see you Monday, the Good Lord willing!

 

[preistsplace]

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.
Luk 13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
Luk 13:19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Luk 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
Luk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
I will answer you momentarily......

 

[heavensprings]

Oh come on, what about Luke 13?

Yeah, yeah, I'm getting to it... you like to throw a ton of stuff at us. Maybe next time just keep to one question at a time?

Anyway, I am refering to Jesus not the whole NT. And He may not have used the word, it was the references to it, the Lake of Fire, the second death, even when He didn't call it by name just the punishment of the wicked or those who don't follow. The subject was brought up many times but never with exit involved.

He may have used references to it but YOU made the big statement... THIS is how many times, etc...

The references aren't in regard to eternal torment anyway, that's only what you've been taught by man...

I'm leaving for a long weekend, see you Monday, the Good Lord willing!

So that means I have plenty of time to respond to your OP.

Have a great weekend, timlamb.

 

[preistsplace]

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down
To me it seems he is speaking to a Jewish audience about how they have been unfruitful and the kingdom is about to be taken from them.

 

[timlamb]

preistsplace;52714312]Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down

You quote less than half of what I give you. You missed this:
The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
​

Good question, look at Jesus response:

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
​

To me it seems he is speaking to a Jewish audience about how they have been unfruitful and the kingdom is about to be taken from them.

You're kidding right?:o Take five and read the whole chapter!

 

[IchoozJC]

I really don't have time to comment on every illustration given in the chapter,... but I wonder why you left this out...

The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast
18Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."

20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

This is actually a verse that UR finds to add strength to their teaching. The yeast works through not some, but all the dough. If yeast= God's kingdom, and flour= all people of the earth, then the yeast working through all the dough seems to imply that the kingdom of God will positively affect all mankind.

If i get time, i'll try to reply to the others.

 

[timlamb]

20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

This is actually a verse that UR finds to add strength to their teaching. The yeast works through not some, but all the dough. If yeast= God's kingdom, and flour= all people of the earth, then the yeast working through all the dough seems to imply that the kingdom of God will positively affect all mankind.

Yes, I admit that I left it out on purpose because it did not reflect directly to the point I was making. I would say that, by using the whole bible and making comparisons, that the dough is to the yeast what fertile ground is to the seeds in the parable of the sower. It spreads in good dough, but yeast does nothing in sand or rocky soil.

I wonder why you chose to address what I left out before what I asked you to address? Most of the chapter 13 in luke (and in Matthew 13) would flatly deny universal salvation.

 

[IchoozJC]

Yes, I admit that I left it out on purpose because it did not reflect directly to the point I was making. I would say that, by using the whole bible and making comparisons, that the dough is to the yeast what fertile ground is to the seeds in the parable of the sower. It spreads in good dough, but yeast does nothing in sand or rocky soil.

I wonder why you chose to address what I left out before what I asked you to address? Most of the chapter 13 in luke (and in Matthew 13) would flatly deny universal salvation.

I explained why I left it out. Do I have all the answers, nope. You could throw many verses at me that I haven't studied in depth, and I would be hard pressed to conclusively say this or that is the answer. I simply addressed somthing within the chapter you refrenced that I felt i had "some" insight into. i don't wish to sidetrack your thread, so stop me if you feel i am.

However, I feel in order to understand verses in light of UR, one must first understand the character of God that UR believes it illuminates. Then scriptures can be understood easier, and the apparant contradictions will diminish. Yet with either side, we will all still only see "dimly, as through a glass", until Perfection comes. It still takes faith, mixed with reason.

Now, before someone says this is incorrectly handling the word, and you should let the word interpret itself, first make certain that there are no personal biases that you have in your handling of the word. One, that I can think that proponents of eternal torment share, is their belief that because God is just, He must punish sin for eternity. They view the justice of God as unquenchable after the final resurrection. However, I have yet to see any scripture that supports this view of God's character. To them, it is simply implied based on their own bias.

I'll take something else from your OP that I find interesting. You said:

Matthew 13 and Luke 13, from Jesus own words the truth about salvation. It is hard teaching but He is the Christ, and He shall be the judge, and He knows the will of the Father and He carries it out.

You say that Christ knows the will of the Father and will do it, and imply that you know the same. You assume that God's will is to punish those forever who don't come to faith during this lifetime. However the bible says this is God's will...

9 The Lord tarrieth not his promise, as some [men] guess, but he doeth patiently for you, and will not that any man perish [not willing any to perish], but [will] that all turn again to penance.

So which is it?

 

[IchoozJC]

For discussion sake, i'll take a stab at a couple of the passages in the OP.

Verses 1-5:

The main idea is repent or perish.

apollymi > perish:

1) to destroy

a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

b) render useless

c) to kill

d) to declare that one must be put to death

e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

2) to destroy

a) to lose

You can't say conclusively that Jesus is warning about anything other than prematurely dying a natural death, either personally or nationally. I believe that He was refering to the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. There is certainly no suggestion that eternal torment is being alluded to.

Just a side note, Luke 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollymi), and is found. And they began to be merry.

the son was apollymi, and was found. So, it's possible to be apollymi, and return to the father....hmmm.

The requirement of repentance
6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "

Fig tree=Israel. Perhaps. This could again be an analogy of Israel at it's current state at the time of Christ. Another warning for the nation.

The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
Good question, look at Jesus response:

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Even the narrow door takes effort, the Kingdom is not for all. And once the door is shut, it is over!

This passage is more difficult. I'm not exactly sure what this is alluding to, but my observations:
1. it seems to also be directed at the Jews. Hence the reference to Abraham and the prophets, and them saying they ate a drank with Him (Jesus).
2. There is nothing in the passage to suggest eternal torment, nor burning in a lake of fire forever. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is hardly language that would sum up the physical agony of having your flesh burned off your bones.
3. It does not say that they will NEVER get in.

this verse I believe is connected with the above.

Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

The last, possibly refering to the Gentiles, the first then would be the Jews. The Gentiles would gain entry first, during the first resurrection. Then the millinium comes. Israel is restored and God gives them new hearts, as Ezekiel 36 seems to suggest. So they come in last. And so all Israel will be saved.

Regardless, whether your first or last, your still there.

Like I said, i'm no scholar, as I'm sure is apparent

However it's good to study this chapter. One thing that I see now more than before is the distinction that Jesus applies between the Jews of that time, and the present church. I certainly don't think all of luke 13 applies universally to the christian church, though we can still learn much from it.

 

[heavensprings]

From a passage in the OP I would like to do another take on the word 'perish', which is the Greek 'apollumi'.

Apollumi is most often translated as 'lost' or 'perish/destroyed''.

Apollumi CANNOT mean to be Alive in some cases, and to be Dead in others.

One word cannot mean to be alive and dead at the same time.

Apollumi is often translated 'lost' when the item has, or will be, found, as in the lost coin or the lost son (a living soul). They had never died. So therefore, the word apollumi cannot mean to deprive of life.

The same word, Apollumi. is often translated as 'perish', as in Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law."

The same word is often translated as 'destroy'...
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The word 'kill', thuo, CANNOT mean the same as the word 'destroy', apollumi. Otherwise we would have the verse saying...
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to kill.

The word Apollumi cannot mean to deprive of life. There are Greek words that mean "to deprive of life." They are 1) thuo, which means "kill;" 2) sphazoo, slay; 3) anaireoco, assassinate or massacre; or 4) phoneuco, which means murder.

Apollumi is often used to describe something that either remains alive or has never had life.

Destruction is a Divine process and a necessary part of the plan of salvation...

Psalms 90:3 "Thou (God) turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men."

1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul says he is delivering "such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

One is SAVED by the process of DESTRUCTION... the destruction of the flesh... the 'old man of sin'.

*I think maybe there's been a bit of mistranslation somewhere along the line...... either that or we have misunderstood the meaning and purpose of the Greek behind the English words 'perish' and 'destruction'.

The word 'perish' cannot mean to annihilate or kill, or do away with. It simply means 'lost'.

 

[heavensprings]

The requirement of repentance

6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "
​

The Father gave the Son permission to try to bring fruit out of us, but the time is limited.

Tim, this one is really quite simple. This passage is for Christians, not for unbelievers.

 

[timlamb]

Tim, this one is really quite simple. This passage is for Christians, not for unbelievers.

So Christians will be "cut down" for their lack of fruit? If one has Christ they cannot help but to bear fruit, like all the parables of the kingdom, it spreads on it's own. If it's not spreading in your life you don't possess it.

Another thing that uni's miss in the message of slavation. The theme is expressed in many forms. from discussions of heaven to the judgment to hell it's self including the Lake of Fire.
those who believe shall inherit and become children
those who forgive will be forgiven
The wicked are not let in, only a few are let in.
the wicked are kept out.
only a few even find the right road.
only a few open the door
some are not let in becasue they were not known
those who build on the foundation of Christ will survive the fire
those who's names are written in the book of Life

All these things are references to the saved, those who have eternal life. These discussions about who perishes are only half the issue. You are debating the ramifications of not entering into eternity with Christ. Regardless of what happens they are not with the Lord. Not all dogs go to heaven, that is plain and clear. I don't have to prove the consequences of sin, only that there are requirements for heaven and not everyone will meet those requirements.

Like this:
The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
​

Good question, look at Jesus response:

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
​

Entrance denied, He never knew them.

 

[heavensprings]

So Christians will be "cut down" for their lack of fruit? If one has Christ they cannot help but to bear fruit, like all the parables of the kingdom, it spreads on it's own. If it's not spreading in your life you don't possess it.

Another thing that uni's miss in the message of slavation. The theme is expressed in many forms. from discussions of heaven to the judgment to hell it's self including the Lake of Fire.
those who believe shall inherit and become children
those who forgive will be forgiven
The wicked are not let in, only a few are let in.
the wicked are kept out.
only a few even find the right road.
only a few open the door
some are not let in becasue they were not known
those who build on the foundation of Christ will survive the fire
those who's names are written in the book of Life

All these things are references to the saved, those who have eternal life. These discussions about who perishes are only half the issue. You are debating the ramifications of not entering into eternity with Christ. Regardless of what happens they are not with the Lord. Not all dogs go to heaven, that is plain and clear. I don't have to prove the consequences of sin, only that there are requirements for heaven and not everyone will meet those requirements.

Like this:
The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
​

Good question, look at Jesus response:

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
​

Entrance denied, He never knew them.

What? What sort of fruit do you think an unbeliever can grow???

The ONLY fruit worthwhile to God is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. An unbeliever cannot possibly grow the fruit of the Spirit.

Do you really believe that once we are saved we have the full expression of the fruit of the Spirit? It takes a lifetime for that holy fruit to grow. It is not done automatically, it's not a case of 'can't help but bear fruit'.. of course we can't help it but it comes with the price of being put through the fire and being cleansed.. God's pruning process. God cannot place His Spirit into unbelievers for the purpose of growing fruit until they are saved.

Do you notice the man was in the 'vineyard'? Unbeliever's are not in God's vineyard until they are saved. He is in the Kingdom, ALL of Jesus' parables are about the Kingdom.

It is the parts of him that are not producing fruit that are cut down (pruned), so the fruit of the Holy Spirit can grow.
It goes along with this passage:

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

cleanseth
kathairō
kath-ah'ee-ro
From G2513; to cleanse, that is, (specifically) to prune; figuratively to expiate: - purge.

HE does the work... in His vineyard.

 

[heavensprings]

Another thing that uni's miss in the message of slavation.

You are assuming we don't see the message of salvation.

It is very rare to find a uni who hasn't been trained in the doctrine's of the book. We all come from various denominations where we learned the message of salvation.. and many are still in the denominations. For myself I am a Biblical Christian Universalist. I am not a Unitarian Universalist.

I hope you don't think we have done away with preaching the gospel?... we try to bring the real Good News... that Christ has already done the work on the cross.. for everyone...'It Is Finished'. THAT is the ministry of Reconciliation... the work is to let them know they are ALREADY reconciled to God and a way has been made for them to have a relationship with Him... and that way is Christ crucified.