Lucifer's side possibility?

If you read the book of Job it talks about how satan operates

It is good to keep in mind that The Book of Job is a sort of extended parable in which both Job and Satan are characters.
God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane said:

do you think it would be possible to please lucifer

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No. In principle, Lucifer and all of the evil sprits are not capable of pleasure, being pleased, satisfction, or any such thing. They are immutably turned toward hate.

chilehed said:

No. In principle, Lucifer and all of the evil sprits are not capable of pleasure, being pleased, satisfction, or any such thing. They are immutably turned toward hate.

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Boy, do you ever know a lot about Lucifer!!

Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane said:

in these things, it's just a belief for me, not knowledge...i actually don't know what label i have for myself now that i think about my spiritual definition.

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I think it will benefit you incomparably more if you spend the time thinking about God than about a defeated foe. Part of satan's scheme is to distract us, so just be careful.

I think if Lucifer truly repents of his sins, God will find a way to save him.
That, sadly, is not happening.

Where ever the practice of calling Satan, 'Lucifer', started, I think Christianity should return to simply calling Satan, 'Satan', and translating a morning star, as a 'morning star', not 'lucifer'. The biblical term 'morning star', is someone whom God has given authority to rule over men on earth. As people found their way around by looking at the stars, especially ships at sea, so are men on earth led by leaders on earth. Thus God refers to leaders of people on earth as 'morning stars'.

'Lucifer' 'denotes the planet Venus, which is the 'light of the morning''. Thus the word lucifer can, and has, in many cases, been translated into the bible, in place of the term 'morning star'.

The problem comes where Jesus Himself, calls Himself, 'Morning Star'. You would not want to translate, Revelation 22:16 'Morning Star', with the word 'Lucifer'!

StevenMerten said:

Where ever the practice of calling Satan, 'Lucifer', started, I think Christianity should return to simply calling Satan, 'Satan', and translating a morning star, as a 'morning star', not 'lucifer'. The biblical term 'morning star', is someone whom God has given authority to rule over men on earth. As people found their way around by looking at the stars, especially ships at sea, so are men on earth led by leaders on earth. Thus God refers to leaders of people on earth as 'morning stars'.

'Lucifer' 'denotes the planet Venus, which is the 'light of the morning''. Thus the word lucifer can, and has, in many cases, been translated into the bible, in place of the term 'morning star'.

The problem comes where Jesus Himself, calls Himself, 'Morning Star'. You would not want to translate, Revelation 22:16 'Morning Star', with the word 'Lucifer'!

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel spoke; of me the Rock of Israel said, He that rules over men in justice, that rules in the fear of God, Is like the morning light at sunrise on a cloudless morning,...

Lucifer
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning"(Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
quoted from: Lucifer; New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
​

Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!

Revelation 22:16
"It is I, Jesus, who have sent my angel to give you this testimony about the churches. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the Morning Star shining bright."​

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I am in widespread agreement with your comments on Lucifer but I believe the problem goes deeper. God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

JackRT said:

I am in widespread agreement with your comments on Lucifer but I believe the problem goes deeper. God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

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Hello Jack,
We are presently discussing Satan in the book of Job over in the Scriptures CF Forum. Please visit and add. The book of Job.


I think we all agree, if the other eleven Apostles would have drawn their swords and killed the one Jesus identifies as Satan, in Matthew 16, they would not have killed Satan, but St. Peter.

If you replace the biblical term 'Satan', with 'man's evil human pride', all biblical cases where the term 'Satan' is used, can come into being in common with one another.

Was it a red tailed demon talking to Eve? Or man's evil human pride, talking to Eve?

Was it a red tailed demon talking to God in heaven in the Book of Job? Or was it Israel's evil human pride in massive unrepentant sins, talking with God? I see the Book of Job as an allegory about the Rise, Fall and Restoration of Israel.

When the king of Babylon falls, is there really a king falling, or is it king Nebuchadnezzar evil human pride, which is being humbled.

Nebuchadnezzar, Adam and Eve, Israel, the Prince Tyre, the Pharaoh and all his hordes, and even Satan, in the Book of Revelation, are all bionically described as falling from heaven to earth, from earth. It is their evil human pride, in thinking they are like gods, that is described bionically as falling from heaven to earth.

I am author of Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon which this concept is quoted from.

Why don't you stop over to Christian Forums Scripture Forum, and discuss furthur about God's use of the term 'Satan'.
The book of Job.

StevenMerten said:

We are presently discussing Satan in the book of Job over in the Scriptures CF Forum. Please visit and add. The book of Job.

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Thank you for the invite but I am already there and contributing.

JackRT said:

Thank you for the invite but I am already there and contributing.

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Oops! Sorry! Didn't realize.

JackRT said:

Thank you for the invite but I am already there and contributing.

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So Jack, what do you think about my post 56 over at The Book of Job, in the CF Scriptures Forum? Why is Babylon, which Nebuchadnezzar ruled over, falling in the Book of Revelation? Symbolically, both king Nebuchadnezzar, and Satan, are falling from heaven, when Jesus is Enthroned as King and Ruler of the world, in the Book of Revelation.

I say, God was King and Ruler over Israel from the Exodus till the fall of Israel in 587 B.C., when God relinquished His Kingship over Israel, and placed secular power as ruler over Israel. When Jesus takes over as King and Ruler over Israel, and the world, upon victory at our near future Battle of Armageddon, the dynasty of world dominant secular power, starting with king Nebuchadnezzar, succeeding and jumping from one World Dominant Power Country to another, ruling over Israel, comes to an end. So, technically, we have Satan, man's evil human pride, ruling the world from the Fall of Israel One, till our near future, rise of Zion, Israel Two, as we enter into Messianic Reign.

It is man's evil human pride in world dominant secular power, symbolically falling from heaven to earth, as it falls from power on earth, to make way for Jesus' Kingship, on earth.

What do you think?

StevenMerten said:

What do you think?

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To be quite honest I care little for the Revelation of John and to be brutally honest I seriously wonder if the man was sane. I do not think that the book has anything to say to a Christian today.

JackRT said:

To be quite honest I care little for the Revelation of John and to be brutally honest I seriously wonder if the man was sane. I do not think that the book has anything to say to a Christian today.

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Hello Jack,
The Book of 'Revelation', revelation means to be revealed. The 'Apocalypse', apocalypse means to bring to light. The problem with the Book of Revelation, is that people have been trying to decipher it for 2000 years. The Book is encrypted, by God, to only open itself up at the proper time God wills it to be understood, and used by His Church. The Book of Revelation is like king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, God chose only the Prophet Daniel to decipher it.

Over the past 300 years, we have been receiving apocalyptic messages, from God, sent to us, via apparitions from the Blessed Mother, locutions from Jesus and visions from God. I know, a great many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do not care for Catholic visions and messages from God. Jesus presently has the Church at Chapter Seven of the Book of Revelation, which is God's 'Elect' receiving 'God's Seal', in preparation for Armageddon.

If you, or anyone, are even remotely interested in discussing this, I am all for talking about it. You can even laugh at me, I am humble enough for that. Though it might have to be the CF scriptures forum, it was pretty hostile toward Catholics in the Eschatology Forum.

Now is the time of Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus has told us this through locution to St. Faustina. The Book of Revelation is now unlocked and open for interpretation. It does not take a genius to see that now would be a very good time for Jesus to Come and Rule the world.

StevenMerten said:

Now is the time of Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus has told us this through locution to St. Faustina. The Book of Revelation is now unlocked and open for interpretation. It does not take a genius to see that now would be a very good time for Jesus to Come and Rule the world.

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In my lifetime I have seen so many end times speculations that I no longer pay them any attention --- well, except to occasionally warn people about taking them too seriously. Like now.

JackRT said:

In my lifetime I have seen so many end times speculations that I no longer pay them any attention --- well, except to occasionally warn people about taking them too seriously. Like now.

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lol Ok

Peace Brother

Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane said:

I'm just an agnostic exploring christian perspectives so here goes my most recent question. do you think it would be possible to please lucifer and be on his side? for example, if he gives you an order and you were seeking out his approval let's just say for the sake of argument...you say yes to the order...how do you think lucifer would react? would he reject you because he sees mercy as a weakness? would he be pleased by such reactions? my personal beliefs as an agnostic is that lucifer actually is just a pained villain, still loves god-his father, and still has a good heart even though he wants power to be the best of the best. so i guess my question is-what do you think lucifer sees as what is strong for him? by the way, what did he do to deserve to really get kicked out of heaven? if god can do whatever he wants, he could've put lucifer in a comfortable but not being able to move kind of position and talk to him about it. maybe god could've let him go in a more suitable realm he can rule over without people being able to be affected by lucifer, no?

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I think he knows he's going down and wants to take as many as he can with him.​

• Revelation 12:12b...

  but woe to you, O earth and sea, for​

  the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”​

  ​
• Devil 8:2 much misery loves company.

Jesus doesn't seem to think there is any redeemable value to Satan, nor do I.

• Luke 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."