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Lucifer

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OldWiseGuy

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I asked this question in a different forum and got some good answers, so let's see what you guys got.

How do we know Lucifer and Satan are one and the same? I'm looking for scriptual support.

Not much direct scriptural support but lots of circumstantial evidence does link the two. So often a onetime friend betrays and becomes an enemy. It seems so with Lucifer/Satan.

owg
 
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pehkay

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Isaiah 14:12-14 says:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O Daystar, son of the dawn!
How you have been hewn down to earth,
You who made nations fall prostrate!
But you, you said in your heart:
I will ascend to heaven;
Above the stars of God
I will exalt my throne.
And I will sit upon the mount of assembly
On the sides of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the Most High.

This Lucifer, son of the dawn who fell from heaven, is Satan. If we compare this passage with Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:7-12, and 1 Timothy 3:6, we can see that this one is Satan.
 
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Tavita

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Where does this name, Lucifer, come from? It's not in the original Greek. It just says 'son of the dawn'.

Lucifer is a Latin name.

In the original Hebrew, the 14th chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel.
 
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pehkay

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Ezekiel 28:13-14 says that Satan was in Eden, the garden of God. This is not the Eden in Genesis 2, which was the Eden on this earth. The Eden here is the garden of God upon the holy mountain in the heavenlies. Furthermore, Satan was anointed by God to be the chief archangel. Jude 9 also tells us that he was the chief archangel and was above all the angels.


From the day of Satan's creation, God prepared musical instruments around him (Ezek. 28:13b). This indicates that he was a ruler, a king. Furthermore, in John 12:31 the Lord says that Satan is the ruler of the world. Then in Luke 4:5-6 Satan himself indicated that he has authority over the world. Ephesians 2:2 calls Satan the ruler of the authority of the air.


Ezekiel 28:14 goes on to tell us that Satan was the cherub covering the ark. This is not the ark on the earth but the ark in heaven. He was the cherub upon the ark, covering it. He was very close to God as the high priest serving God. Therefore, on the one hand he was a king, and on the other hand he was a priest. Today we have taken this position. We were born priests, and we are going to be kings. Our position today was once Satan's position. Because of his failure, this position has come to us.


Satan's heart was lifted up because of his beauty and his brightness (Ezek. 28:17). This was arrogance. He said in his heart, "I will ascend to heaven; / Above the stars of God / I will exalt my throne. / And I will sit upon the mount of assembly / In the uttermost parts of the north" (Isa. 14:13). The uttermost parts of the north means the highest place. This was Satan's arrogant declaration. He wanted to sit upon the throne of assembly, where God sits in the uttermost parts of the north. In Job there are two times when God assembles with all the angels in this place of assembly (1:6; 2:1). Isaiah 14 continues: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; / I will make myself like the Most High" (v. 14). These are the five points of Satan's arrogant declaration, each beginning with the words "I will." Satan wanted to be on the same level as God. This was his rebellion.

When Satan rebelled, one-third of the angels of heaven participated in that rebellion. Revelation 12:4 says that one-third of the stars, that is, one-third of the angels, followed the dragon Satan. This indicates that they followed Satan in his rebellion. These angels eventually became the fallen angels.

The living creatures in the preadamic age also joined Satan in his rebellion. Students of the Bible agree that according to the record of the Bible, in the age before Adam, there should have been some living creatures. Those living creatures also followed Satan in his rebellion.

Because of his rebellion Satan became God's adversary, God's enemy (Zech. 3:1-2; Rev. 12:9a; 20:2a). Satan is a Hebrew word that means adversary. He is the adversary within and the enemy without. Satan and his subordinate angels then became the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies, of which Satan is the ruler. This is clearly revealed in the book of Ephesians (6:12; 2:2b; Dan. 10:13, 20). The living creatures of the preadamic age became demons (Matt 12:43-45), working for Satan's kingdom of darkness (Matt. 12:26; Acts 26:18a; Col. 1:13a).

God then judged Satan so that he will be cast from the heavens to the earth and into Sheol, to the uttermost parts of the pit (Ezek. 28:16-17; Isa. 14:15). Sheol in the Old Testament equals Hades in the New Testament. Satan wanted to go to the uttermost parts of the north, to the highest place; but eventually God judged him, and He will throw him into the uttermost parts of the pit.

God also judged the heavens and the earth, which had become polluted because of Satan's rebellion. The heavens were polluted by Satan because after his rebellion he continued to go into heaven. Hence, the entire universe became dark (Job 9:5-7). In Genesis 1:2a the darkness of the entire universe is mentioned.

Although God has judged Satan, He will execute His judgment upon him step by step, until Satan is cast into the lake of fire. God judged Satan and declared His verdict on him, but He did not execute the verdict at that time. According to the Bible God carries out the execution of His judgment upon Satan gradually, step by step. In Luke 10:17-19 the Lord Jesus said that while He was on this earth, He saw Satan falling down out of heaven. Then in Revelation 12:9 Satan is cast down from the heavens at another time, and in Revelation 20:2-3 he is bound and cast into the bottomless pit. Finally, he is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10). Yet before the completion of the execution of God's judgment upon him, he can still enter into the presence of God to accuse God's people, as he did in the case of Job (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Zech. 3:1-2; Rev. 12:10b). Today he also walks about on the earth as a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour (1 Pet. 5:8). Nevertheless, whatever he does is a kind of help to God that God may perfect His people.

Hebrews 2:14 tells us that Christ, in His flesh on the cross, destroyed Satan, in his person and nature, as the one who has the might of death. Thus, Satan's judgment has been executed on his person and nature, because Christ has destroyed him on the cross.

In the history of God in time, these are the initial things: God's creation, Satan's rebellion, God's judgment on Satan, and God's carrying out of His judgment on him.
 
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Tavita

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When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question.

Satan "Adobe not" in the truth.
Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

(Rev. 12:9; 20:1-2). Here Satan is called "that old serpent." The word "old" is from the Greek word "archaios" which means ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL. "Primeval" means FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE. "Archaios" is from the Greek word "arche" which means A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore, "arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word "archomai" which means TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME. Putting this all together can we not see that Satan is that OLD serpent, that ANCIENT serpent, that ORIGINAL serpent, that PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE, from the BEGINNING, who existed as a serpent right FROM THE COMMENCEMENT OF TIME!
"Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Gen. 3:1).

Amplified Bible bluntly and beautifully words it, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen - so be it."

"ALL THINGS were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made" (Jn.1:3)

"I have created the WASTER to destroy" (Isa. 54:16).


In regards to Lucifer being Satan....

In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
 
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pehkay

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Er ... your point being?

I wasn't making a point concerning the word Lucifer. But more on the divine revelation revealed in Isaiah 14. The king typfiied Satan wants: "I will ascend to heaven; / Above the stars of God / I will exalt my throne. / And I will sit upon the mount of assembly / In the uttermost parts of the north" (Isa. 14:13). That is consistent with the revelation in the other parts of the Bible.
 
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Tavita

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Er ... your point being?

I wasn't making a point concerning the word Lucifer. But more on the divine revelation revealed in Isaiah 14. The king typfiied Satan wants: "I will ascend to heaven; / Above the stars of God / I will exalt my throne. / And I will sit upon the mount of assembly / In the uttermost parts of the north" (Isa. 14:13). That is consistent with the revelation in the other parts of the Bible.

It's metaphorical language... the King was an extremely proud man. Isaiah 14 has nothing to do with the beginnings of the Adversary.
 
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pehkay

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Oh my ... then Isaiah is just a book of metaphorical literature :p ...

The figurative portrait of God's eternal economy presented in the Old Testament spans thirty-nine books, but it is only in four sections-in types, in history, in poetry, and in prophecy. The section of types is of five books, from Genesis to Deuteronomy. The section of history is of twelve books, from Joshua to Esther. The section of poetry is of five books, from Job to Song of Songs. The section of prophecy is of seventeen books, from Isaiah to Malachi. There are five major prophets and twelve minor ones. Thus, the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament can be divided into three "fives" and two "twelves." There are five books of types, twelve of history, five of poetry, five of the major prophets, and twelve of the minor prophets. The twelve minor prophets are from Hosea to Malachi. We want to see the intrinsic significance of these four sections of the Old Testament.

A. In Types-Genesis to Deuteronomy

The types from Genesis to Deuteronomy unveil the Triune God embodied in Christ as the center and circumference of His eternal economy. They also unveil this Christ as the blessing and everything to the Triune God's chosen people.

B. In History-Joshua to Esther

The twelve books of history from Joshua to Esther unveil the Triune God's move in His chosen people to possess, inherit, and enjoy His promised all-inclusive Christ as the good land. They also unveil the failures of God's chosen people as a warning to His New Testament chosen people. God's chosen people in the Old Testament became altogether a failure in God's move. The record of this in the Bible is a warning to us, the church people today in the New Testament.

C. In Poetry-Job to Song of Songs

The poetry in the Old Testament is only of five books: Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs. They unveil that the Triune God Himself, not ethics or morality, should be man's pursuit as his perfection. This one sentence covers the central, intrinsic revelation of Job. The Psalms unveil that this God was incarnated to be a man in the flesh to be His Anointed, who is His delight, who has been exalted by Him, and who should be received, treasured, and exalted by His chosen people. Ecclesiastes unveils that all things in the human life under the sun are vanity of vanities, and Song of Songs shows that Christ as the embodiment of the Triune God is the unique satisfaction to God's chosen people. Thus, we should pursue God as our perfection, and we should pursue after Christ as our satisfaction. God should be our perfection, and Christ can be our satisfaction.

D. In Prophecy-Isaiah to Malachi

The seventeen books of prophecy from Isaiah to Malachi unveil that the Triune God embodied in Christ will come to be the God-man (Isa. 7:14; 9:6) to accomplish redemption (ch. 53) for the fulfillment of God's eternal economy according to the preceding three categories of the books in the Old Testament. They also unveil that the accomplishment of the Triune God in Christ will consummate in the new heaven and new earth (Isa. 65:17; 66:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1).

All the above points present us a vivid portrait of the all-inclusive Christ in and for God's eternal economy in the Old Testament. In types, we see that Christ is the centrality and universality of God's eternal economy and the divine blessing to all God's chosen people. In history, we see that the all-inclusive Christ is the God-promised good land that all God's chosen people should take, possess, inherit, and enjoy to the uttermost, even to the level of kingship. In poetry, we see that Christ is the unique perfection for God's chosen people to pursue after and the unique satisfaction for God's chosen people to obtain and enjoy. In prophecy, we see that the Triune God has become a God-man to accomplish His full redemption for the fulfillment of His eternal economy which will consummate in the new heaven and new earth.
 
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Tavita

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LOL!.. whatever.

If you want to believe in the myth of an Adversary that once was a beautiful sinless angel then go for it. I'm not trying to twist your arm. Not everyone believes in the myth you know.

btw... The Hebrews of the OT didn't believe in the entity you are promoting, neither do the Jews of today.
 
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Tavita

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Sure! :D To his/her own view then ... (hmm am I promoting Satan? lol)

Of course ... (not that I care what the Jews think) ... they don't even believe if the Messiah is standing before them :p I guess they rather believe in the dead letters of the OT ....

Yes, to each their own... :D

The thing about the Jews is, they may not have recognized their Messiah, but they still know from the scriptures that He's coming. They still know their OT scriptures...they may have missed Him the first coming but they sure won't miss Him in the second... and they don't see a Lucifer being a Satan in those passages.

Anyways... nice throwing info back and forth with ya! :wave:
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I asked this question in a different forum and got some good answers, so let's see what you guys got.

How do we know Lucifer and Satan are one and the same? I'm looking for scriptual support.

We don't.

Many quote the Is passage and a passage from Ezekiel as refering to Satan . . . we cannot know.

We do know that Satan WAS an angel though . . . per Revelation.
 
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MrSnow

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Ezekiel 28 MIGHT refer to Satan. I'll give you that.

But there is nothing in the context of Isaiah 14 (other than a poor translation of "day star") that would require it to be about anyone other than the King of Babylon. If you were to read Isaiah from the beginning all the way through chapter 14, with a translation OTHER THAN the King James, there would be nothing to make you look beyond the King of Babylon for the interpretation. It fits perfectly and makes perfect sense, as well as fitting the context perfectly. So as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no doctrine of Satan that can be derived from Isaiah 14, although there might be from Ezekiel 28.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Ezekiel 28 MIGHT refer to Satan. I'll give you that.

But there is nothing in the context of Isaiah 14 (other than a poor translation of "day star") that would require it to be about anyone other than the King of Babylon. If you were to read Isaiah from the beginning all the way through chapter 14, with a translation OTHER THAN the King James, there would be nothing to make you look beyond the King of Babylon for the interpretation. It fits perfectly and makes perfect sense, as well as fitting the context perfectly. So as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no doctrine of Satan that can be derived from Isaiah 14, although there might be from Ezekiel 28.

I am in agreement . . . I think the evangelical tendency to attribute the passage to Satan is weak.

Perhaps there is an intertestamental witness from the targums and such that show a Jewish interpretation as so . . . and I think the church has historically attribuited the passage to Satan. But like I said . . . textually and hermeneutically it is weak.

BUT, one cannot dismiss it on context alone . . . for Is 9:6ff is quoted as a messianic passage . . . yet it refers to Is's own son later . . . and some in scholarship have posited about 9 different people other than Christ that it could have been.

So just because the Is passage in context refers to a human king does not mean that it cannot have a secondary proleptic or prophetic sense to it.
 
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MrSnow

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I agree with that principle. God does the same thing with David and Solomon, saying things about Solomon that could be taken as references to Christ. So I won't necessarily rule out the possibility of a deeper interpretation of Isa 14. But there is nothing in the NT that I can recall that points back to Isa 14 as referring to Satan, and I can't recall anything anywhere else in Scripture that points back to Isa 14. Other OT passages with deeper significance often have other parts of Scripture (especially the NT citing an OT passage) pointing out their significance. All we have with Isa 14 is a mistranslation making it appear to be referring to Satan. So unless someone can give me some pretty compelling evidence as to why there is a deeper meaning to Isa 14, it has no meaning to me other than the King of Babylon (but like I said, if you can give me something good, I'm all ears (all eyes, really, as this is a message board)).
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I agree with that principle. God does the same thing with David and Solomon, saying things about Solomon that could be taken as references to Christ. So I won't necessarily rule out the possibility of a deeper interpretation of Isa 14. But there is nothing in the NT that I can recall that points back to Isa 14 as referring to Satan, and I can't recall anything anywhere else in Scripture that points back to Isa 14. Other OT passages with deeper significance often have other parts of Scripture (especially the NT citing an OT passage) pointing out their significance. All we have with Isa 14 is a mistranslation making it appear to be referring to Satan. So unless someone can give me some pretty compelling evidence as to why there is a deeper meaning to Isa 14, it has no meaning to me other than the King of Babylon (but like I said, if you can give me something good, I'm all ears (all eyes, really, as this is a message board)).

Agreed.

I do seem to remember some reason from Rabbinc Judaism though . . . :scratch:
 
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squint

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I agree with that principle. God does the same thing with David and Solomon, saying things about Solomon that could be taken as references to Christ. So I won't necessarily rule out the possibility of a deeper interpretation of Isa 14. But there is nothing in the NT that I can recall that points back to Isa 14 as referring to Satan,

You should re-read it. Lucifer and the king of Babylon is clearly SATAN.

and I can't recall anything anywhere else in Scripture that points back to Isa 14. Other OT passages with deeper significance often have other parts of Scripture (especially the NT citing an OT passage) pointing out their significance. All we have with Isa 14 is a mistranslation making it appear to be referring to Satan. So unless someone can give me some pretty compelling evidence as to why there is a deeper meaning to Isa 14, it has no meaning to me other than the King of Babylon (but like I said, if you can give me something good, I'm all ears (all eyes, really, as this is a message board)).

There are many connections in scriptures to Isaiah 14. Too many to count. Isaiah is largely a future prophecy that has not yet come to pass and is echoed in Rev. hand in hand with the eventual destruction of the king of Babylon...not a physical king...an ANTI-Christ spirit that Satan is as well as ALL of his evil seed...that would be DEMONS or DEVILS.

The first time around with Jesus was a showing of them. The next time around ain't gonna be so pretty for THEM.

enjoy!

squint
 
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