Loving and Merciful God???

[onthegallow]

Read Gen 32:30 "30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

People have seen God face to face.

I am not questioning what angels did. I am questioning that God has damned them before trying to win them back. God is showing partiallity. You're right, they are higher than humans, therefore, get the ball rolling for your higher species to come back to you and see that you still love them in their sin. Anything less is unbiblical of the character and nature of what you guys call God.

 

[Jpark]

Ok, brother. I understand what you are saying and I agree. Thanks for being patient.

I find myself asking the previously disclosed question, which is really a follow-up to the question:

"If someone can be evil all of their life (by choice,) but be saved at the very last moment (like the thief/murderer on the cross next to Yeshua,) cant the same but opposite thing happen i.e. a believer that falls away in the end?" The question, quite frankly, scares me.

Then, when you add in the philosophical problem of free will, choice, and their implications it gets supremely complicated.

As a physicist, I cant possibly ignore the existance or glory of God, as I am studying His creation everyday. It is humbling. And, because I can say for a fact God exists, I want to cover all "holes" in logic concerning salvation.

I suppose I am having a cliche science vs. spirituality conflict moment, but it has been going on for years .

I can understand and master quantum electrodynamics but having faith is the hardestthing I have ever had to do, and I am nowhere close to mastering it.

Yes, I'm just following 2 Timothy 2:24-25.

And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,


My father tells me that can happen. But he says don't think too deeply concerning this matter. This is God's right and God's will. If you continue concentrating on this, your spirit and soul will be harmed.

My father tells me that science is good for humanity, but some scientists cannot be devoted 100% to God concerning Isaiah 45:7. God has been working until now and He is continually fulfilling Isaiah 45:7 completely. God is the Master of everything in the universe.

My father just told me that science was permitted by God.


It is acceptable in the sight of God, but science should not separate us from God.

 

[aiki]

Read Gen 32:30 "30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

People have seen God face to face.

This is not proof of your point, I'm afraid.

Only a few verses before the one you've picked out one reads,

Genesis 32:24 (KJV)
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Hmmm...it says here that Jacob wrestled with a man, not God. And the "man" never plainly identifies himself to Jacob as an angel or as God. If Jacob did have a divine visitation, it was not on par with what angels experience of God in heaven - not by a long shot. And this is my point: Angels experience God fully, unveiled, in all His glory and majesty. No man living on earth has ever had such an experience of their Maker. So, when an angel rises up in rebellion against their Creator, they don't do so with doubts or confusion about His existence or nature clouding their thinking. Angels don't have the same susceptibility to fleshly impulses, either, that humans do, nor are they cursed with the propensity to sin as are we. Many (if not most) of the things that factor into a human's rejection of God are absent in the decision an angel makes to reject Him. If men are "without excuse" as Romans 1:20 says, angels are far, far more so; for they reject God with a full, perfect experience of Him.

I am not questioning what angels did. I am questioning that God has damned them before trying to win them back. God is showing partiallity.

What more can God do to "win back" angels than to reveal Himself to them in all His divine brilliance and power? But He has already done that and they have still turned from Him. They have witnessed, as creatures of heaven, God's terrible holiness, His absolute purity, His deep, deep love and they have been unmoved from their rebellion. No, God is not the least bit guilty of "partiality" as you assert. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

You're right, they are higher than humans, therefore, get the ball rolling for your higher species to come back to you and see that you still love them in their sin.

God will not make puppets out of His creatures, which is what He would have to do to cause fallen angels to return to Him. They know full well the nature of their rebellion; they know precisely what they are doing and the import of their rebellion to their future and still they persist in their defiance of God. It is not that God cannot forgive them but that they are fully and irreversibly committed to their wicked opposition of God.

Anything less is unbiblical of the character and nature of what you guys call God.

It amazes me how someone like yourself who has virtually no knowledge of God, who is confined and limited by all the things God transcends, can make these proclamations about Him. If you spent the same energy trying to know Him that you do finding reason to reject Him, you would be far better served.

Peace.

 

[Jpark]

Read Gen 32:30 "30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

People have seen God face to face.

I am not questioning what angels did. I am questioning that God has damned them before trying to win them back. God is showing partiallity. You're right, they are higher than humans, therefore, get the ball rolling for your higher species to come back to you and see that you still love them in their sin. Anything less is unbiblical of the character and nature of what you guys call God.

God did not provide a plan for the angels who sinned.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.

 

[onthegallow]

[SIZE=+1]Genesis 17:1-4[/SIZE]

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

[SIZE=+1]Exodus 24:10-11[/SIZE]

"And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink."

[SIZE=+1]Exodus 33:11[/SIZE]

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle."
[SIZE=+1]
Deuteronomy 5:4[/SIZE]

"The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,"

[SIZE=+1]Acts 7:55-56[/SIZE]

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."



​

 

[onthegallow]

So, there are the verses that support people seeing God face to face. I think what you have pointed out is that something in the new testament contradicts other verses.

 

[onthegallow]

Show me a verse where Satan says he hates God.

 

[Jpark]

Show me a verse where Satan says he hates God.

If it was the other way, then I admit, I could not show you a verse. However, since you said Satan hates God, I will provide verses shortly.

Here is why I believe Satan hates God:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Great wrath. This is intense anger that can only be terminated by the desire to kill.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

The devil has been a murderer and desires to kill.

John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

I believe this is a possible reference to Satan.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

Finally, Acts 9:4. Jesus says to Paul, why are you persecuting Me? Note in Acts 8:3, Saul was persecuting the church. So by persecuting the church, He was persecuting Jesus.

In a similar manner, Satan, by attacking the believers, he is getting back at God. He hates humans, but he hates God more. Note Revelation 12:12 he knows that he has a short time and because of this, has great wrath.


Concerning seeing God, yes, people saw visible manifestations of God, who is invisible. I do not deny this.

 

[onthegallow]

See you have mentioned some verses describing a babylonian King. Your Eziekiel 28 verse one starts:

The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

and so it goes on. This is not talking about what you are talking about and yet again, misrepresentation of context is only allowed on your side. I dont believe that adam lost his eternal life from sinning, then the point of the tree of life and God gaurding it is null. Plus it says this in the bible:

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil

So we see that this idea that all have sinned only appeared from Paul. The event in the old testament never desccribed original sin. This is something that has evolved into what it is today. Job was PERFECT. Look it up and see that it means what it says for the Hebrew word perfect. And not just that. The Bible says that it is unjust for someone to pay for someone elses sin. We are not bound to the sin that Adam did. It is unjust most of you are a slave to this mentality.

If we want to look at it further, Adam and Eve shouldnt have known if what they were doing was right or wrong since they didnt know yet and have that knowledge from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Dragons87]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil

So we see that this idea that all have sinned only appeared from Paul. The event in the old testament never desccribed original sin. This is something that has evolved into what it is today. Job was PERFECT.

Sorry...may I just butt in here to clarify a point? Job was "perfect", but still fell short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). In Job's own words from Job 42:

"I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.""

See that Job despises himself and repents despite his "perfection".

I don't know what you've been discussing, and I don't intend to join in. I just wanted to point that out.

 

[onthegallow]

Sorry...may I just butt in here to clarify a point? Job was "perfect", but still fell short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). In Job's own words from Job 42:

"I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.""

See that Job despises himself and repents despite his "perfection".

I don't know what you've been discussing, and I don't intend to join in. I just wanted to point that out.

I think you missed the point. The point was if he was born and original sin was true, he wouldn't have been "perfect" on the fact that he was born, and thus negates original sin doctrine, because at a point later in his life God saw him as PERFECT.

 

[Jpark]

Well I for one am confused. I did not mention Ezekiel and Revelation 12:12 cannot possibly be referring to the King of Babylon or Tyre. I will be leaving this thread now. Carry on.

 

[marcusfetzer]

Consider that our concept of time is irrelevant. The transgression occurred in heaven, when does not matter. Our transgressions are on earth. Perhaps God cannot allow evil in the purity of heaven and removed it immediately.

 

[onthegallow]

Lucifer sinned (Ezekiel 28:16)

That is the first thing you said. It is referring to the king of tyre not lucifer. Lucifer was translated from the latin vulgate but it did not mean the devil. And if God is judging us on the evil that Satan has brought to man, that is not just. It should be God's moral duty to kill this mythical creature if he exsisted.

And if God, being all knowing, knew Satan would do all this, why did he create him?

 

[Jpark]

Lucifer sinned (Ezekiel 28:16)

That is the first thing you said. It is referring to the king of tyre not lucifer. Lucifer was translated from the latin vulgate but it did not mean the devil. And if God is judging us on the evil that Satan has brought to man, that is not just.

It should be God's moral duty to kill this mythical creature if he exsisted.

And if God, being all knowing, knew Satan would do all this, why did he create him?

Oh, I see now.

Yes, I am aware of that. I will make improvements to my signature right now.

Satan can't be killed since he is a spirit. He can be destroyed (spiritual poverty) in the lake of fire (spiritual torment) and God knows this and prepared the lake of fire for him.

My signature reveals that creation was for the manifestation of the Son of God. That is why He created us. So He could come to earth as Jesus and die for our sins.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get your own house in order first, before you start worrying about angels.

 

[Dragons87]

I think you missed the point. The point was if he was born and original sin was true, he wouldn't have been "perfect" on the fact that he was born, and thus negates original sin doctrine, because at a point later in his life God saw him as PERFECT.

I see your point. I don't really base my faith on original sin, to be fair. I mean, why blame someone else for the wrong choices I'm making today? My own sins are enough for Christ to atone me for.

But beyond that, carry on with your discussion. Thanks for clarifying the matter.

 

[aiki]

So, there are the verses that support people seeing God face to face. I think what you have pointed out is that something in the new testament contradicts other verses.

*Sigh* Just as in the first instance you offered where Jacob "sees God," the other verses you've put forward are also not proof of what you're contending. In none of the examples you've given is there evidence upon which to assert that those who "saw God" did so as do the angels in heaven. In Exodus 33:20 God says to Moses, "...for there shall no man see me and live." It is reasonable to assume, then, that in those instances in Scripture where men do see God, He is in a form that is veiled, which protects those who see Him from death. Jacob saw God as "a man," Abraham, we are told in Scripture, saw the "angel of the Lord" at least a couple of times in the form and appearance of man, Moses "saw" God in a burning bush, a pillar of cloud and of fire, and the cloud of darkness and lightning atop Mount Sinai, Elijah was exposed to God as a "still, small voice." In none of these instances (except perhaps for the martyr Stephen who was in the process of dying) was God seen as He is seen by angels who did or do dwell with Him in heaven.

It is telling, I think, that rather synthesize verses and allow them to qualify and interpret each other, you prefer to simply put them at odds with each other. Why is that?

Peace.

 

[norswede]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

Satan and his angels committed Blasphemy, the unpardonable sin. They wished to become gods themselves and rise above God. This is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve and when they believed him and wished to become gods themselves, they were banished from paradise and their immortality was taken from them and they were shown what a life without God really is like and until Jesus came, Man had to struggle to get back what they lost. Now there are other religions out there including the New Age Movement that teach that we can become gods. I believe that those who accept this lie are committing the one unpardonable sin and cannot be forgiven, but in order to commit this sin they have to truly believe in their hearts that they can and will become like God.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

Lucifer sinned (Ezekiel 28:16)

That is the first thing you said. It is referring to the king of tyre not lucifer. Lucifer was translated from the latin vulgate but it did not mean the devil. And if God is judging us on the evil that Satan has brought to man, that is not just. It should be God's moral duty to kill this mythical creature if he exsisted.

And if God, being all knowing, knew Satan would do all this, why did he create him?

I am interested in answers to this post.