Lost sheep parable ...

[MikeBigg]

Here's the parable of the lost sheep:

Luke 15:
4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbours together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.​

If the sheep in the field symbolically represent saved people and the 1 sheep symbolically represents a lost person and the shepherd is God, why is it so many die having not been found?

The same can be asked about the parable of the lost coin which follows immediately after.

How can we reconcile what we see happening in the western world (90+ % of people dying without knowing God) with these two parables and Bible verses like 1 Tim 2: 4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" and 1 Tim 4: 10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." ?

Mike

 

[lismore]

If the sheep in the field symbolically represent saved people and the 1 sheep symbolically represents a lost person and the shepherd is God, why is it so many die having not been found?

To me the lost sheep is a saved person who wanders off. The good shepherd leaves the others and finds the lost person. This is showing the doctrine called OSAS. The Lord will not let one of his sheep go because he is the good shepherd.

 

[MikeBigg]

To me the lost sheep is a saved person who wanders off. The good shepherd leaves the others and finds the lost person. This is showing the doctrine called OSAS. The Lord will not let one of his sheep go because he is the good shepherd.

OK, thanks - but the lost sheep is compared to a "sinner who repents" in v7 - hardly a saved person, surely?

 

[Faulty]

Think of it in light of these verses:

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold.I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
John 10:14-16
​

 

[Frogster]

wide is the road to destruction.

 

[lismore]

OK, thanks - but the lost sheep is compared to a "sinner who repents" in v7 - hardly a saved person, surely?

The prodigal son came to his senses, repented of partying with the prostitutes and came home.

 

[hislegacy]

I was mediating on this today.

The thought I came away with was that the worst thing God ever referred to me as is:

1. A lost sheep needing rescue
2. A precious coin worth finding..
3. A pearl of great price that He will stop everything for.
4. Precious fruit of the earth, that He is willing to wait for.

And that is while I am still at enmity with Him. Wow. Now that I am at peace with Him and call Him Father, besides rejoicing over me, what does he call me now?

Precious child.

 

[MikeBigg]

The prodigal son came to his senses, repented of partying with the prostitutes and came home.

Indeed. So you're saying that you think the lost sheep, coin and son only refer to people who are already Christians yet have turned away?

 

[vitaminC]

Indeed. So you're saying that you think the lost sheep, coin and son only refer to people who are already Christians yet have turned away?

While we might be able to apply this passage to Christian believers , I think it is anachronistic to hold that as the primary meaning of the parable. Christians did not exist at the time the parable was told and therefore the primary meaning must be about Jewish believers. I think it is referring to Jesus going to the disenfranchised down and out people of Israel rather than to the religious establishment and those who were already attending the synagogue.
I think it ties in with Jesus coming for the sick and not for the righteous.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I look at it like this, Jesus says in Matthew 10 that the house of Israel are as lost sheep. He goes after them. Now He does not force anyone to come with Him. They can reject His call and remain lost. He is not willing to let them perish nor does He just let them go without trying to reconcile them. Then it applies in similar manner to all Gentiles, only quite obviously the Gentiles could never claim to be in the fold of God as Jews could. But Jesus pursues them as well and they also can either accept or reject His call. He is not willing that ANY should perish, but most do because they reject the Shepherd's call.

 

[MikeBigg]

I look at it like this, Jesus says in Matthew 10 that the house of Israel are as lost sheep. He goes after them. Now He does not force anyone to come with Him. They can reject His call and remain lost. He is not willing to let them perish nor does He just let them go without trying to reconcile them. Then it applies in similar manner to all Gentiles, only quite obviously the Gentiles could never claim to be in the fold of God as Jews could. But Jesus pursues them as well and they also can either accept or reject His call. He is not willing that ANY should perish, but most do because they reject the Shepherd's call.

OK - and how does the 1 Tim 4: 10 verse fit in with that?

 

[Yahu]

Here's the parable of the lost sheep:

If the sheep in the field symbolically represent saved people and the 1 sheep symbolically represents a lost person and the shepherd is God, why is it so many die having not been found?

Mike

Easy, because they are not sheep but goats or wolves or ...

Yeshua said He came for the lost sheep OF ISRAEL. Other nations are represented by other animals but the 10 northern tribes got assimilated into the gentiles. They are the lost sheep.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

OK - and how does the 1 Tim 4: 10 verse fit in with that?

Well in Philippians Paul says every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, but you don't really believe everyone will enter God's Kingdom do you? In like manner, God being the savior of all is probably just a statement stating that all can be saved. Which in my opinion is why Paul adds in 1 Tim 4 the phrase "especially those who believe"

 

[MikeBigg]

Well in Philippians Paul says every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, but you don't really believe everyone will enter God's Kingdom do you? In like manner, God being the savior of all is probably just a statement stating that all can be saved. Which in my opinion is why Paul adds in 1 Tim 4 the phrase "especially those who believe"

Hmmm. So despite the words being quite clear we are to dismiss them as meaning something else.

The lost coin parable is interesting in this as the lost coin was not from any particular tribe or nation, and represents a lost human being. (Which is actually how I have always read the parable of the lost sheep). The coin didn't lose any value just because it was lost and the woman hunted high and low to get it back even though she could, presumably, get by on the 9 coins she hadn't lost.

I think the message in the parables of the lost sheep and coin indicate that God will hunt down all the lost souls and that the parables support and are supported by both 1 Tim 2:4 and 1 Tim 4:10.

If that is the case - something else in our understanding doesn't add up.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Hmmm. So despite the words being quite clear we are to dismiss them as meaning something else.

The lost coin parable is interesting in this as the lost coin was not from any particular tribe or nation, and represents a lost human being. (Which is actually how I have always read the parable of the lost sheep). The coin didn't lose any value just because it was lost and the woman hunted high and low to get it back even though she could, presumably, get by on the 9 coins she hadn't lost.

I think the message in the parables of the lost sheep and coin indicate that God will hunt down all the lost souls and that the parables support and are supported by both 1 Tim 2:4 and 1 Tim 4:10.

If that is the case - something else in our understanding doesn't add up.

By what you present here, you must be a universalist. In which case, why even evangelize if everyone is going to be saved anyway? What's the point? The facts are there are MANY passages in scripture of people being cast into the lake of fire, more popularly known as hell, even though hell itself is cast into the lake of fire. So quite obviously, God isn't saving all people. Does that mean He can't? No, it means they rejected Him and lived in unbelief. So either God is lying to us and He isn't really the Savior of all people or He is and it requires that response of belief on our part. I can offer to donate money to a homeless person, but they have to accept what I offer. It makes me no less a donor if they say yes or if they say no. Same concept just on an obviously much larger scale.

 

[MikeBigg]

By what you present here, you must be a universalist. In which case, why even evangelize if everyone is going to be saved anyway? What's the point? The facts are there are MANY passages in scripture of people being cast into the lake of fire, more popularly known as hell, even though hell itself is cast into the lake of fire. So quite obviously, God isn't saving all people. Does that mean He can't? No, it means they rejected Him and lived in unbelief. So either God is lying to us and He isn't really the Savior of all people or He is and it requires that response of belief on our part. I can offer to donate money to a homeless person, but they have to accept what I offer. It makes me no less a donor if they say yes or if they say no. Same concept just on an obviously much larger scale.

But - the Bible does say quite clearly as I have pointed out in 1 Tim 4:10 that He is the saviour of all - not that salvation is just offered to all.

I'm not saying that hell isn't a reality and that people won't go to hell - that is clear in scripture, too.

What I'm trying to do is reconcile these apparent contradictions. There must be an answer as both positions are clearly stated in the Bible.

As for evangelism - I'm fully committed to it. I hope it comes through in many of the posts I make.

Regards,

Mike

 

[ByTheSpirit]

But - the Bible does say quite clearly as I have pointed out in 1 Tim 4:10 that He is the saviour of all - not that salvation is just offered to all.

I'm not saying that hell isn't a reality and that people won't go to hell - that is clear in scripture, too.

What I'm trying to do is reconcile these apparent contradictions. There must be an answer as both positions are clearly stated in the Bible.

As for evangelism - I'm fully committed to it. I hope it comes through in many of the posts I make.

Regards,

Mike

I think you may be taking it a bit too literally. Honestly. You admit and believe in hell and I don't doubt that you do. So as stated either God lied and all will be saved, or it is as I presented. Think of it like that. Once again, in different terms: If I give blood at the local blood store, that makes me a blood donor. Whether or not anyone ever uses that is irrelevent, I am a blood donor because I have offered it to someone who accepts it. God is the Savior of all people because He can save them and He will if they believe. If they choose not too believe does not make Him any less a Savior, it just means those individuals (and they will be many) will not be saved.

Perhaps someone else here can explain it in better terms...

 

[MikeBigg]

I think you may be taking it a bit too literally. Honestly. You admit and believe in hell and I don't doubt that you do. So as stated either God lied and all will be saved, or it is as I presented.

Or ... there is some other alternative that makes sense of the two truths expressed.

Maybe.

Luke 19: "the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost" kind of adds into the discussion.

Think of it like that. Once again, in different terms: If I give blood at the local blood store, that makes me a blood donor. Whether or not anyone ever uses that is irrelevent, I am a blood donor because I have offered it to someone who accepts it. God is the Savior of all people because He can save them and He will if they believe. If they choose not too believe does not make Him any less a Savior, it just means those individuals (and they will be many) will not be saved.

Perhaps someone else here can explain it in better terms...

Hmm. (That's the sound of me thinking and considering, by the way).

But - the verse doesn't say can be the saviour, but is the saviour.

But bring in the lost coin parable and maybe even Romans 5 which support the "all" and we have a conflict between what we traditionally understand and what some verses in the Bible say.

Calvinism and Arminianism don't play well together. So having Bible based contradictions is not new - but fun to explore

Regards,

Mike

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes bro, God is the Savior of all people, just like He is God of all people and creator of all. Because people do not believe doesn't make Him any less so. It just means they choose not to accept it, but their unbelief doesn't make Him ex-God or un-God, He still is, as He was and always will be. Just as He is Savior, Redeemer, Healer, Provider, etc. belief or unbelief aside, God is all those things, what we choose to accept and believe does not affect Him as such in one bit.

 

[MikeBigg]

I understand what you are saying, and nicely put.

Now about the woman looking for the lost coin until it is found ... if the woman represents God and the coins people, doesn't the parable suggest that 90% saved isn't enough?

And if that is true - that may mean that 1 Tim 4:10 may be read differently to how you have interpreted it.