Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[didactics]

Matthew 24:22

It is a difficult subject trying to make sense of predestination. We could end up having these infights being moved away from the topic at hand. It is perhaps two things, that people go to hell because they are given over and it is freely chosen that they reject the only savior, and second God knows the end from the beginning who would go there and who are his own. Though, God can use the bad things that happen and turn it around for his good, for his glory.

Matthew 23:37

 

[Saint Steven]

If Jesus has the keys to hades, with the intention of releasing those in hell, why doesn’t he do this sometime before his second coming?

He already did before his resurrection. Why couldn't it happen again?

 

[Saint Steven]

Ray Comfort, a pastor and evangelist put it this way, “He can commute your death sentence and legally let you live forever, all because Jesus paid the fine for sin in full on that cross.”

We agree on the effect of the atonement, just not on the scope of application.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not entirely sure, I just know the wicked will be given their bodies. Hebrews 9:27 tells us, And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement...

The judgment is for all of humankind. Salvation is already secure due to the finished (complete) work of Christ.
It is works that will be judged. The basis for restoration in each individual before entering heaven.
Even present day believers will have wood, hay and stubble to burn away. Right?

 

[FineLinen]

Something to keep in mind, though I think only certain people are elect I should tread lightly. Though God knows all whom He wills to save, we don't know and have that insight. That is why the gospel call goes out to everyone, because we shouldn't assume otherwise. Besides, God commanded that the gospel is to go out to everyone in the great commission.

The Lord knows exactly whom He will save. The elect are the first fruits, known also as the malista. The malista is the beginning of God's recovery purpose as the Saviour of ALL mankind, not part of it.

"God must be accomplishing a design invariable and without the shadow of turning, the design to save every one of us everlastingly." ~Florence Nightingale

"God will seek us – how long? Until he finds us. And when he’s found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory, and Christ will turn over all things to the Father that he may be all and in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." ~Clarence Jordan - (founder of Koinonia Community, author of Cotton Patch Gospel)

 

[didactics]

The Lord knows exactly whom He will save. The elect are the first fruits, known also as the malista. The malista is the beginning of God's recovery purpose as the Saviour of ALL mankind, not part of it.

"God must be accomplishing a design invariable and without the shadow of turning, the design to save every one of us everlastingly." ~Florence Nightingale

"God will seek us – how long? Until he finds us. And when he’s found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory, and Christ will turn over all things to the Father that he may be all and in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." ~Clarence Jordan - (founder of Koinonia Community, author of Cotton Patch Gospel)

In Clarence Jordan's quote when he says hell will be depopulated, and concludes "Then every tongue confess", is he saying that at Christ's second coming will be the moment hell will be depopulated? The reason I ask is because earlier I asked if hell would be finished just before his second coming, and your answer seemed to be that hell would continue for some indefinite period of time after Christ's second coming.

 

[didactics]

The judgment is for all of humankind. Salvation is already secure due to the finished (complete) work of Christ.
It is works that will be judged. The basis for restoration in each individual before entering heaven.
Even present day believers will have wood, hay and stubble to burn away. Right?

I'm not entirely sure how it is you are interpreting this verse. Maybe start with verses 10-15, so we are not just looking at this verse in isolation. Are you saying that even those who offer silver and gold and precious stones (a man's work as a believer, dedicated spiritual service) will go through some kind of punishment on the day that his work is tested? The judgment bēma seat is in mind here. reward. Cf. Rev 22:12. This is not a judgment for sin.

 

[FineLinen]

In Clarence Jordan's quote when he says hell will be depopulated, and concludes "Then every tongue confess", is he saying that at Christ's second coming will be the moment hell will be depopulated? The reason I ask is because earlier I asked if hell would be finished just before his second coming, and your answer seemed to be that hell would continue for some indefinite period of time after Christ's second coming.

It matters little when all dimensions of hell come to an end. The Master consumes it within himself.

And there shall be no more curse!

 

[atpollard]

Salvation is firmly rooted within our God. It is not a heavenly game of chance. The offer is not time sensitive.

God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind, malista those who believe.

Please note:

Especially is not only, (monon or monos).

So evangelism is not, strictly speaking, necessary … Everyone will arrive eventually.
And why should people be tortured as martyrs HERE when they can just deny Christ and trust to Godly purification in hell.

Right?

 

[FineLinen]

So evangelism is not, strictly speaking, necessary … Everyone will arrive eventually.
And why should people be tortured as martyrs HERE when they can just deny Christ and trust to Godly purification in hell.

Right?

Wrong!

The malista of the love & grace of God lead creation home to Him. The word of their testimony is part of the process in recovery of broken sinners.

 

[Der Alte]

The Lord knows exactly whom He will save. The elect are the first fruits, known also as the malista. The malista is the beginning of God's recovery purpose as the Saviour of ALL mankind, not part of it.
"God must be accomplishing a design invariable and without the shadow of turning, the design to save every one of us everlastingly." ~Florence Nightingale
"God will seek us – how long? Until he finds us. And when he’s found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory, and Christ will turn over all things to the Father that he may be all and in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." ~Clarence Jordan - (founder of Koinonia Community, author of Cotton Patch Gospel)

Unfortunately, some of what Clarence Jordan [pronounced Jerdan] said is not scriptural.
We cannot forget Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:46

Revelation 22:10-11
(10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Last chapter of the Bible. Vs. 11, ten more vss. The End, no more death, no more hope, no more salvation ONLY "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still,"

 

[atpollard]

Wrong!

The malista of the love & grace of God lead creation home to Him.

Non sequitur.

How does your response explain the NECESSITY for evangelism? In fact, by your own statement “The malista of the love & grace of God lead creation home to Him” … not the Gospel message (your ‘Good News’ is those who trust in Jesus and those who do not trust in Jesus will all arrive in heaven).

You have also not explained why it is better to suffer at the hands of men than to place your suffering in the hands of God? Are men less cruel when punishing believers than God is when correcting unbelievers?

These are logical questions born of your philosophy. For me … John 3:18 resolves the whole matter (Doubly so when read in context).

 

[Der Alte]

Non sequitur.
How does your response explain the NECESSITY for evangelism? In fact, by your own statement “The malista of the love & grace of God lead creation home to Him” … not the Gospel message (your ‘Good News’ is those who trust in Jesus and those who do not trust in Jesus will all arrive in heaven).
You have also not explained why it is better to suffer at the hands of men than to place your suffering in the hands of God? Are men less cruel when punishing believers than God is when correcting unbelievers?
These are logical questions born of your philosophy. For me … John 3:18 resolves the whole matter (Doubly so when read in context).

You said a bad word when it comes to UR-ites, "Read in context." That ruins their whole day.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

The "believeth on Him" must happen in this life. Contrary to what UR-ites say there is no second chance after death.

JPS Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

 

[didactics]

It matters little when all dimensions of hell come to an end. The Master consumes it within himself.

And there shall be no more curse!

You say it matters little to you, but surely you must have given it thought. I only read an article recently that said “every knee will bow” at Christ’s second coming. It sounds right. I have no reason to think it will be otherwise. It sounds like it will be a pretty spectacular event. In discussing this, then it means we get into a topic about end times. First, there’s premillennialism which says Christ’s second coming will inaugurate a thousand years of his reign on earth, then the end will come followed by a new earth. Postmillennialism and amillennialism has it that the second advent initiates the final judgment, followed by the restoration of the earth.



Actually, here’s something I didn’t consider. Postmills believe that when “every knee will bow” is a process, because they anticipate that the nations will be christianized and will culminate in Christ’s return. Premills believe that Christ’s return means he will literally reign on the earth, so the nations will be christianized all in a moment.



From what I gather from Clarence Jordan’s quote, he believes every knee will bow means a process as well, but for completely different reasons. Universalists maintain that nobody will be compelled to pay homage to the King, so it will take releasing people from hell for this prophecy to be fulfilled. But, I ask again, when will the last person be released from hell? Will it be before, during or after Christ’s return?

 

[Der Alte]

@FineLinen @didactics
Here is what "every knee will bow means to me.
Contrary to what UR-ites erroneously proclaim, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”​

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity​

…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]​

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool, vs. 24, then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies specifically will be reconciled.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not entirely sure how it is you are interpreting this verse. Maybe start with verses 10-15, so we are not just looking at this verse in isolation. Are you saying that even those who offer silver and gold and precious stones (a man's work as a believer, dedicated spiritual service) will go through some kind of punishment on the day that his work is tested? The judgment bēma seat is in mind here. reward. Cf. Rev 22:12. This is not a judgment for sin.

What about the wood, hay and stubble? What of those who are as one escaping through the flames? (total loss)

 

[didactics]

What about the wood, hay and stubble? What of those who are as one escaping through the flames? (total loss)

1 Corinthians 3:15

15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.


Matthew Henry's Commentary
(1.) Because this is plainly meant of a figurative fire, not of a real one: for what real fire can consume religious rites or doctrines?


Now, back up a couple of verses to verse thirteen. Is it only wood, hey and stubble that is being tested by fire? I really don’t understand your interpretation, are you saying that believers go through suffering before they go to heaven?


13 each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work.


What about the thief on the cross? He was promised to be met with Christ that very day in Paradise.


Luke 23:43

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[Hmm]

What about the thief on the cross? He was promised to be met with Christ that very day in Paradise.

But is this the same thing as heaven? According to N. T. Wright, we don't go to heaven when we die but to a temporary resting-place. In the verse "In my Father's house there are many mansions. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?" the word "mansion" is "monai" in Greek and means a temporary dwelling place like a wayside inn. Perhaps the mistranslation was caused by the similarity of the words.

If paradise is an intermediate state where we await the resurrection, then this is consistent with the idea that we are all salted with fire as scripture says. Even believers.

 

[didactics]

But is this the same thing as heaven? According to N. T. Wright, we don't go to heaven when we die but to a temporary resting-place. In the verse "In my Father's house there are many mansions. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?" the word "mansion" is "monai" in Greek and means a temporary dwelling place like a wayside inn. Perhaps the mistranslation was caused by the similarity of the words.

If paradise is an intermediate state where we await the resurrection, then this is consistent with the idea that we are all salted with fire as scripture says. Even believers.

There are still at least a few inconsistencies with this interpretation.

(1.) Did Jesus really meet the penitent thief on the cross in paradise?

(2.) When are believers "salted", immediately after they pass on to paradise or at the time of final judgment?

If you say immediately after, how do you square that with the teaching of the rich man and Lazarus; Lazarus and Abraham don't appear to be suffering. If you say at the time of final judgment, how do you square that with "every knee should bow" "in heaven" (Php 2:10)?

(3.) Do you believe in a new earth at the end of all things?

If so, how does that square with Clarence Jordan's quote about when "every knee should bow"? for he says that once the last person is released from hell, then everyone takes a knee. From this perspective it sounds like people are gradually being released from their resting place and brought to the final heaven.

(4.) What does it mean when it says "in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Php 2:10)?

 

[Hmm]

Interesting questions. I don't have a good answer to any of them but here's ,y bad answers:

(1.) Did Jesus really meet the penitent thief on the cross in paradise?

I would have thought so if He said he would. I think the idea of paradise, the wayside inn, is that it's a beautiful place to be and we will be with Jesus there.

(2.) When are believers "salted", immediately after they pass on to paradise or at the time of final judgment?

If you say immediately after, how do you square that with the teaching of the rich man and Lazarus; Lazarus and Abraham don't appear to be suffering. If you say at the time of final judgment, how do you square that with "every knee should bow" "in heaven" (Php 2:10)?

I'm guessing it will be at the time of final judgment. I think paradise is purely a waiting point.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable so you can't read too much into every detail.

(3.) Do you believe in a new earth at the end of all things?

If so, how does that square with Clarence Jordan's quote about when "every knee should bow"? for he says that once the last person is released from hell, then everyone takes a knee. From this perspective it sounds like people are gradually being released from their resting place and brought to the final heaven.

Yes, I think the earth, and that means the entire physical universe, will be transformed. Heaven comes down to join earth. It's not an ethereal place up in the sky despite what Rapturists (if that's what they're called) may think!

(4.) What does it mean when it says "in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Php 2:10)?

I don't know. Perhaps we don't all go to paradise when we die. Maybe some stay "under the earth". But eventually, everyone will freely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.