Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[FineLinen]

The proponents of Universalism, like most errant doctrines, tend to fall into apophenia. They take verses outside their stated context and twist them into a pattern that props up their own misconceptions. They ignore the justice of God and make Him some insipid watered down wimp who doesn't have any wrath and whose word is mocked. They misunderstand a classic synecdoche when "every knee" is mentioned. It obviously can't apply to the souls who are lost.

Good grief ! !

Every knee bowing to the Lord of glory is NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but in/en the Name.

En = in, not at.

 

[didactics]

Looks as though we are making some progress here, brother.
At the beginning of this discussion it seemed that I was a heretic, or at least one who ascribed to heretical doctrine. Something to ponder, indeed.


Agreed.
Oh wait, I'm a Universalist, how can I say that? Another good question that deserves a complete answer.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

In regards to 1 Corinthians 12:3 there is a difference between living by the teaching of "Jesus is Lord" and acknowledging finally (even the unbelievers) that Jesus is Lord. At last, even the unbelievers will come to know that Jesus is Lord, without reservation. How tormenting it will be to finally know but it be too late? (Compare 1 Corinthians 2:8-14) It is like a prison sentence without parole.

 

[FineLinen]

In regards to 1 Corinthians 12:3 there is a difference between living by the teaching of "Jesus is Lord" and acknowledging finally (even the unbelievers) that Jesus is Lord. At last, even the unbelievers will come to know that Jesus is Lord, without reservation. How tormenting it will be to finally know but it be too late?

All knees bow in worship. There is no too late and no prison sentence with no parole.

Jesus Christ seeks till he finds!

 

[Saint Steven]

In regards to 1 Corinthians 12:3 there is a difference between living by the teaching of "Jesus is Lord" and acknowledging finally (even the unbelievers) that Jesus is Lord. At last, even the unbelievers will come to know that Jesus is Lord, without reservation. How tormenting it will be to finally know but it be too late? (Compare 1 Corinthians 2:8-14) It is like a prison sentence without parole.

Thanks.
Have you heard of the Harrowing of Hell?
Why couldn't it happen again?

Did Jesus fail at his mission?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[didactics]

All knees bow in worship. There is no too late and no prison sentence with no parole.

Jesus Christ seeks till he finds!

Why on earth would there ever be a distinction of false converts and true ones in the Bible? Some may profess that Jesus is Lord but not by practice. He always leads people to Christ's lordship (the believers). They "have the mind of Christ." (cf. 1 Co 2:16)

 

[Saint Steven]

All knees bow in worship. There is no too late and no prison sentence with no parole.

Jesus Christ seeks till he finds!

You got that right! (openly declare, whole-heartedly and without reservation, in full agreement)

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Hmm]

SO YOUR ERRANT HERESY CAN BE CORRECTED AND REBUKED FOR ALL TO SEE!

People are allowed to make their own minds up, no?

I, for one, am glad that Christian universalism is not protected in that sense because it allows everyone to see the actual case for and against, rather than just the usual strawman arguments. It's no surprise that universalism is becoming increasingly popular around the world

 

[Saint Steven]

Why on earth would there ever be a distinction of false converts and true ones in the Bible?

False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?

Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

 

[didactics]

False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?

Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

This verse is referring to true converts.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's no wonder that universalism is becoming increasingly popular

Yes, a gospel with actual GOOD news. (about time)

The competing brand says:
Good news, you are saved from eternal torture. To bad about your loved ones. Can't be helped, I guess... Oh well... don't worry about them. You can have your memories erased when you get to heaven. No sickness or sadness, right?

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?

Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

This verse is referring to true converts.

That's my point. A convert is a convert. There is no true or false.

 

[public hermit]

Wow, it's so great to see all the new folks! Too bad they're all wrong. I'm kidding. Welcome new fans of eternal torture! So glad you're here!

 

[Hmm]

Yes, a gospel with actual GOOD news. (about time)

The competing brand says:
Good news, you are saved from eternal torture. To bad about your loved ones. Can't be helped, I guess... Oh well... don't worry about them. You can have your memories erased when you get to heaven. No sickness or sadness, right?

Yes, IMO it's the only view that makes complete sense of Christianity. Jesus and torture simply don't go together. I think most people realise that anyway, it's just that they think it's something they are expected to believe. Probably not many do really. Anyone who really believes in ECT either doesn't care too much about others or else, as personal testimonies evidence, suffers a lot of anxiety from the associated cognitive dissonance.

 

[didactics]

Saint Steven said: ↑
False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?

Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

That's my point. A convert is a convert. There is no true or false.

This seems to be about true and false disciples to me:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
— Matthew 7:21-23

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I never had any to lose.

Funny, Der Alte. Just keep in mind that I was also offering a "funny."

But on a serious note, when I first picked up and began reading the New Testament all those years ago in the way that I did, I was mainly struck by the Goodness and Love of Christ. The comments on Gehenna that He lavished upon His Jewish audience were noticed by me, of course, even giving me pause to think think twice about my own sins and my need of repentance (such is the need of the typical 17 year old male), but none of those comments eclipsed the Light, Truth, Grace, Mercy and Hope against death that I saw in Jesus.

Anyway, I'm glad you never ever had any fear of Hell to lose. That's awesome!

 

[Der Alte]

...

False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?
Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

In '76 I was serving in the Army in Korea. For my peace of mind I attended a Christian fellowship off-base on weekends when possible. One of the regulars was a soldier who had recently become a Messianic Jew. He was very intensely Christian. But his family considered him dead they sat shiva for him and recited the kaddish. He chose to reject Christianity and return to his family.

 

[public hermit]

In '76 I was serving in the Army in Korea. For my peace of mind I attended a Christian fellowship off-base on weekends when possible. One of the regulars was a soldier who had recently become a Messianic Jew. He was very intensely Christian. But his family considered him dead they sat shiva for him and recited the kaddish. He chose to reject Christianity and return to his family.

All the respect, but you are assuming a lot here. Plus, what about Romans 9-11? Aren't the Jews grafted back in, even assuming eternal damnation? How do you interpret those passages?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, IMO it's the only view that makes complete sense of Christianity. Jesus and torture simply don't go together. I think most people realise that anyway, it's just that they think it's something they are expected to believe. Probably not many do really. Anyone who really believes in ECT either doesn't care too much about others or else, as personal testimonies evidence, suffers a lot of anxiety from the associated cognitive dissonance.

Agreed.
I know that I was exposed to "hell" at such a young and impressionable age by those I should have been able to trust. It was easy to understand and embrace.

And frankly, as I have said before, heaven and hell have become an accepted concept even in secular society. Not to mention the winner/loser mentality and the demand for "justice" that includes punishment to the fullest extent of the law.

In the past, public executions were like entertainment. Crowds flocked to watch. Sort of like TV programs today. What gets the most attention? Even gawker slowdowns on the freeway/expressway. Most want to see the carnage.

So... quite a challenge to lose the fear of an eternal hell. The evidence to believe in it and be fearful of it surrounds us. Not what I would categorize as a healthy respect. (fear)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

All the respect, but you are assuming a lot here. Plus, what about Romans 9-11? Aren't the Jews grafted back in, even assuming eternal damnation? How do you interpret those passages?

Isn't there an "if" or two somewhere in and among Paul's discourse in those chapters?

 

[public hermit]

I know that I was exposed to "hell" at such a young and impressionable age by those I should have been able to trust. It was easy to understand and embrace

See? It's disturbing they way God is framed for children. I thought God only loved me if I was good, which was a real struggle for me. Lol. I grew up with so much guilt and fear. That's not right. It makes me sad because it was not necessary.