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Salient point.They may be reruns, but if you haven't seen it, it's new to you. - LOL
I noticed you're liking a lot of old posts lol.
The Hell thread by AnarKiss is pretty great.They need it. It stops them feeling sad and forgotten. The guy's a real saint.
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”Yes, let's follow that thought...
The one who sustains, provides sustenance. (life)
How utterly contrary is the idea that the sustainer of the universe would be about maintaining the consequence of the Fall. (death)
Did Christ not, with but one righteous deed, undo what humankind had done?
Thus, sustaining ALL things.
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
In a sense, don’t you actually believe the condemned will worship the Lord out of force, otherwise what are they doing under the earth? If God intended that the condemned worship Him out of love, wouldn’t it only make sense that He transfer them to heaven just before the arrival of the King?The universe is indeed held together by the Beginning & Ending, the ta pante, who is the Guide & Goal of the all.
I repeat, the entire universe, encompassing the heavens earth & underworld all ultimately bow in worship. It is NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but in what being in/en Christ means.
Every knee, every tongue, every dimension IN worship.
Absolutely not !In a sense, don’t you actually believe the condemned will worship the Lord out of force, otherwise what are they doing under the earth? If God intended that the condemned worship Him out of love, wouldn’t it only make sense that He transfer them to heaven just before the arrival of the King?
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”
R.C. Sproul, Chosen By God: Know God's Perfect Plan for His Glory and His Children
...
Notice, I’m explaining this from a calvinist point of view
As to the gospel, I distinguish between the external call and internal call.
God calls all men externally, and He only calls His own internally.
I=7 we=2, my=1, me=1. This is the number of times you used these reflexive pronouns in this post. And, Jesus=1, Christ=1, God=1. Was Paul a universalist?I'm sure you can give a logical account of what this means but when I read something like this I think that something has simply gotten lost along the way somewhere. And I'm not singling out Calvanism. Any starting point that is not the person of Jesus and what He reveals to us about God is bound to go wrong somewhere. Scripture should be read through the lens of Christ. The picture of Jesus we build up starts from the premises we start with - they form the initial sketch lines from which the whole picture is developed. The reason I don't believe ECT is a thing is primarily not because of intellectual argument but purely because I can't picture Jesus torturing or tormenting anyone. Universalism simply provides the intellectual framework for the view that I already hold but that's important because I want to feel validated to some extent in my understanding and being part of the universalist tradition that goes right the way back to the early church and to Paul gives me that.
In a sense, don’t you actually believe the condemned will worship the Lord out of force, otherwise what are they doing under the earth? If God intended that the condemned worship Him out of love, wouldn’t it only make sense that He transfer them to heaven just before the arrival of the King?
.... What? There's 4 Hells now? .... dang! It's starting to sound like we're in the middle of an Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game ....Absolutely not !
The Lord Jesus Christ holds the keys of death & all 4 hells. He not only holds the keys, He is the Master Locksmith, a Specialist in opening prison doors.
I=7 we=2, my=1, me=1. This is the number of times you used these reflexive pronouns in this post. And, Jesus=1, Christ=1, God=1. Was Paul a universalist?
Twenty two categories of unrighteous people whom Paul says have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
Vss cited: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17
Yep! No Confirmation Bias there whatsoever ...... ... Scripture should be read through the lens of Christ. The picture of Jesus we build up starts from the premises we start with - they form the initial sketch lines from which the whole picture is developed. The reason I don't believe ECT is a thing is primarily not because of intellectual argument but purely because I can't picture Jesus torturing or tormenting anyone. Universalism simply provides the intellectual framework for the view that I already hold but that's important because I want to feel validated to some extent in my understanding and being part of the universalist tradition that goes right the way back to the early church and to Paul gives me that.
whateverwhatsoever ...
You are partly right. Once I was travelling from the west coast to Virginia on official business. The man in the seat next to me was reading the Bible. To initiate a conversation I said, "That's a good book you are reading. I like how it ends." He smiled. Then I said, "You are a military aviator." He looked surprised and said, "Do I have a sign on my forehead?" I said "No, the glasses and the haircut." I had the same military issue aviator glasses. I was a military pilot for 8 years.Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River, producing twelve kinds of fruit, a ripe fruit each month. The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age. ~MSG
No more curse upon anything !
.... What? There's 4 Hells now? .... dang! It's starting to sound like we're in the middle of an Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game ....
Four Hell's =.... What? There's 4 Hells now? .... dang! It's starting to sound like we're in the middle of an Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game ....
That is good, I don't do "intellectual argument." I quote scripture, in context, you don't seem to believe that either. E.g. Matthew 7:21-23, Jeremiah 13:11-14, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17, Roman 1:24, 26, 28. And OBTW nobody ever said Jesus, Himself punishes anyone. "Eternal punishment" is the Biblical phrase. Matthew 25:46. I don't think the word "torture" occurs anywhere in the Bible.As I say, I don't believe Jesus doesn't torture primarily because of intellectual argument. This implies the converse too: no amount of intellectual argument will convince me that He does.
"Mnemeion"? Ok. That's a new one. But I'm not sure I'd classify all four of these under the same heading since they're different conceptual entities.Four Hell's =
1. geenna
2. hadēs
3. tartaroō
4. mnēmeion
Each of these words are translated as hell in the KJV. As far as I am concerned it matters zilch, the Master consumes them all into Himself. It is the Heavenly Big Gulp."Mnemeion"? Ok. That's a new one. But I'm not sure I'd classify all four of these under the same heading since they're different conceptual entities.
Who's the final authority on this with whom I should appeal to for pure definition?
Blue Letter Bible has an "INTERLINEAR" for the verses as part of the "Bible Tools" that allow you to see the EXACT WORD that the original text ... [MGNT] or [TR] for the New Testament or [Masoretic] or [Septuagint] for the Old Testament ... used. Other online tools offer similar features, but I think the original word is a pretty "authoritative" source to start for a definition."Mnemeion"? Ok. That's a new one. But I'm not sure I'd classify all four of these under the same heading since they're different conceptual entities.
Who's the final authority on this with whom I should appeal to for pure definition?
Me too."Mnemeion"? Ok. That's a new one.
| Matthew 8:28 | And when he came to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, there met him two demoniacs coming out from the tombs (mnēmeiōn | μνημείων | gen pl neut). They were so violent that no one could pass by that way. |
| Matthew 23:29 | “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves (mnēmeia | μνημεῖα | acc pl neut) of the righteous, |
| Matthew 27:52 | the tombs (mnēmeia | μνημεῖα | nom pl neut) were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. |
| Matthew 27:53 | After his resurrection they came out of the tombs (mnēmeiōn | μνημείων | gen pl neut) and entered the holy city and appeared to many. |
| Matthew 27:60 | and laid it in his own new tomb (mnēmeiō | μνημείῳ | dat sg neut), which he had cut in the rock. Then he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut) and went away. |
| Matthew 28:8 | So they left the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut) at once, with fear and great joy, and ran to break the news to his disciples. |
| Mark 5:2 | And just as Jesus got out Jesus of the boat, just as there met him from the tombs (mnēmeiōn | μνημείων | gen pl neut) a man with an unclean spirit. unclean |
| Mark 6:29 | When his disciples heard of this, they came and took his corpse and placed it in a tomb (mnēmeiō | μνημείῳ | dat sg neut). |
| Mark 15:46 | So he brought a linen shroud, and taking him down, he wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb (mnēmeiō | μνημείῳ | dat sg neut), which had been hewn out of rock; and he rolled a stone across the entrance of the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut). |
| Mark 16:2 | Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), the sun having risen. |
| Mark 16:3 | And they were saying to themselves, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?” (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut) |
| Mark 16:5 | And entering the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), they saw a young man sitting on the right, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. |
| Mark 16:8 | And going outside, they fled from the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut), for trembling and astonishment had taken hold of them. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. |
| Luke 11:44 | Woe to you! For you are like unmarked tombs (mnēmeia | μνημεῖα | nom pl neut); people walk over them without realizing it.” |
| Luke 11:47 | Woe to you! For you build memorials (mnēmeia | μνημεῖα | acc pl neut) to the prophets, but your fathers killed them. |
| Luke 23:55 | The women who had come with him from Galilee followed along behind and saw the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), and how his body was laid in it |
| Luke 24:2 | They found the stone rolled away from the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut), |
| Luke 24:9 | And returning from the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut), they told all these things to the eleven and to all the others. |
| Luke 24:12 | |
| Luke 24:22 | Moreover, some women of our group astonished us: going to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut) early in the morning |
| Luke 24:24 | Then some of those who were with us went to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” |
| John 5:28 | Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in their graves (mnēmeiois | μνημείοις | dat pl neut) will hear his voice |
| John 11:17 | Now when Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb (mnēmeiō | μνημείῳ | dat sg neut) for four days. |
| John 11:31 | When the Jews, who were with Mary in the house consoling her saw that she had gotten up quickly and gone out, they followed her, assuming that she was going to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut) to weep there. |
| John 11:38 | Then Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). It was a cave, and a stone was lying across it. |
| John 12:17 | The crowd that had been with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut) and raised him from the dead continued to bear witness. |
| John 19:41 | Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | nom sg neut) in which no one had ever yet been laid. |
| John 19:42 | So because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | nom sg neut) was nearby, they laid Jesus there. |
| John 20:1 | Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), while it was still dark, and she saw the stone removed from the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut). |
| John 20:2 | So she went running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken our Master out of the tomb (mnēmeiou | μνημείου | gen sg neut), and we do not know where they have put him!” |
| John 20:3 | So Peter and the other disciple set out to go to the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). |
| John 20:4 | The two were running together, but the other disciple ran ahead more quickly than Peter and arrived first at the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). |
| John 20:6 | Then Simon Peter, who had been behind him, also arrived, and he went right into the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). He saw the linen wrappings lying there, |
| John 20:8 | Then the other disciple, the one who had arrived first, also went into the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut), and he saw and believed. |
| John 20:11 | But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb (mnēmeiō | μνημείῳ | dat sg neut). As she was weeping she stooped down to look into the tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). |
| Acts 13:29 | And when they had carried out everything that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb (mnēmeion | μνημεῖον | acc sg neut). |
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