Losing salvation vs. once saved always saved

[BustedFlat]

Firstly let me wish you a happy birthday now as I may forget to on the day......so happy birthday in advance.

Thank you, I may forget as well ... at least I would like my body to forget ...

IMO Jesus is here talking to those who are saved, as it would appear from th ewords used that their names (in one sense) are in the book of life, otherwise the typology of "blotting them out" is meaningless as their names wern`t in to be blotted out in the first place. I do not doubt that what He says addresses the churches as a whole, but as churches are made up of individuals we need to know what it means to each individual.

I would point to Second Timothy:

2Ti 1:9Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
​

This would, to me, indicate that the names of everyone were written in the book of life before the beginning.

I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.

My appologies but from what I read A.J Fausset appears to be advocating what I said, I may need it re-explaining, lol.

Mark

With much prayer we will get into that in the future. Right now I need to get out of vacation mode and get myself back into work mode.



May the Peace of Jesus be with you my brother!



BustedFlat

 

[MarkEvan]

I would point to Second Timothy:

2Ti 1:9Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
​

This would, to me, indicate that the names of everyone were written in the book of life before the beginning.

I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.

I would agree that, those who are in the book of life have been in from the beggining and will not be taken out, this is IMO down to God`s foreknowledge. But As I said from the typology Jesus uses here of "blotting their names from the book," this would appear to be referencing to a believer, or as I said why would he say that their names would be blotted out? For them to be blotted out it would make sense that they were in there in the first place, so in type Jesus is saying they have faith in Him and so are saved.

I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.

But what purpose would it serve a non believer, if God has chosen not to save them, then no amount of warnings are going to change that.

With much prayer we will get into that in the future. Right now I need to get out of vacation mode and get myself back into work mode.



May the Peace of Jesus be with you my brother!



BustedFlat

Youv`e been on holiday? Very nice where did you go? Myself I am going for a week in wales the second week of easter.

God bless

Mark

 

[BecauseHeLivesJG]

My personal view is once saved, always saved. I believe when someone is saved there life was changed in some form or fashion and that person really started to live for God(i'm not saying that the person won't mess up .. because obviously no one is perfect in this sin-filled world). Now I don't believe that a person was saved if they were supposedly saved .. say like on a Sunday Night .. and that next weekend he is out drinking and doing drugs .. that person never truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Just a little input from me.

God Bless You All.

 

[BustedFlat]

I would agree that, those who are in the book of life have been in from the beggining and will not be taken out, this is IMO down to God`s foreknowledge. But As I said from the typology Jesus uses here of "blotting their names from the book," this would appear to be referencing to a believer, or as I said why would he say that their names would be blotted out? For them to be blotted out it would make sense that they were in there in the first place, so in type Jesus is saying they have faith in Him and so are saved.

But what purpose would it serve a non believer, if God has chosen not to save them, then no amount of warnings are going to change that.

My reading is that each and every person from the thief on the cross to Mother Tresa to Idi Amin to Pol Pot had their name in that book, and if they reached the Judgment Seat of Christ and have not accepted that gift then their name will have been blotted out by Jesus. That what the bible says then I feel that is what will happen.

Youv`e been on holiday? Very nice where did you go? Myself I am going for a week in wales the second week of easter.

God bless

Mark

One of my co-workers father has a castle in Wales. I need to get over there one day. Enjoy it!

We went to the west coast of south Florida to spend a week with my parents and my sister and her husband. They winter there every year, so I try to slip across once around our birthdays. (father sister and I).


Bless you


BustedFlat

 

[walkwiththee]

I believe once saved always saved as well, but that does not negate the question of if someone was saved to start with. Salvation only comes when one truly believes in the Lord and asks him for salvation. We are then reborn (and you can't be unborn) into a new being.

We can fall away from God and certainly have a sinful life as a born again Christian, but I believe the Lord calls us back and watches over us. What one is losing from sin is not his salvation, but his rewards in heaven. The Lord will always do something to bring us back to him. Even if its calling us home to him.

I did not read the entire thread, but the original question is disturbing to me. Trying to play the line to not lose ones salvation but continue to have it "your way" is a flat out rejection of the Lord. Remember, Fear of the Lord, is very important and essential part of a Christian's life. Struggling to not sin is one thing, but sanctioning it or rationalizing it is quite another. Be for warned the Lord will find a way to encourage you to repent. Better we judge ourselves then to make him do it. Try finding the armor of God....it will help

The Lord is most High

Dan

 

[HowGreatIsOurGod]

I definately believe that you can be saved more then once. I am talking from a personal experience. Before I was saved the first time I was an athiest for 10 years, (growing up in the catholic church can do that to ya). I wasn't saved the first time till 2004, I was doing great when I let the world get in my way with my relationship with Jesus. I backslid, and before I knew it I stopped praying, and searching for Him. Once those pathways to god were broken down I started getting into all kinds of bad stuff. I even tried paganism, and till this day don't know why. The devil will do anything to tear you away from the Lord. When you start to feel the distance you might be backsliding.
That just means you need to seek God more. Even if it is a stagnant time, there are periods of that. Thats also when its easy to backslide.

 

[marke]

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?

2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.

 

[rosiecotton]

2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.

And how does that answer my question?

 

[BustedFlat]

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?

Dearest Sister:


As I have commented through out this thread, I do not believe we can lose it, it was given to us to accept or reject as our free will dictates, once it is accepted it is ours. We will be standing on the right hand side of Christ watching the White Throne Judgment Rev 20:11.

Our Judgment will be by fire:

1Cr 3:10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


If we are backslid, living our life of sin, we will still be saved. We will have no rewards in heaven that we did not earn in this lifetime, but we are always saved.


In order to take what you have in this world, you must convert it to the currency of the Realm ... Build upon the foundation of Christ Jesus and your rewards await you!!! Praise God!!!!



In Jesus


BustedFlat

 

[MarkEvan]

If we are backslid, living our life of sin, we will still be saved. We will have no rewards in heaven that we did not earn in this lifetime, but we are always saved.

Bustedflat, you have said many things in many posts that I have thought very good, this however is contrary to all of scripture, but I believe you know this. When Jesus saved the women caught in adultery He said, "go away and sin no more,"this does not fit in with living your life in sin (even were you saved). Paul says in Romans 3 (I think) that the wages of sin is death, and then in 1 corinthians 6, "do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved," and then most importantly the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 12 possibly 13, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD."

I will leave you with what James says in chapter 1, which I also believe is the answer to Rossiecottons (is that your name or have you taken that from the Lord Of The Rings?) question,

"but we are lured and enticed by our own desires and when we give in they concieve sin, but sin when it is full grown gives birth to death."

a paraphrase I am afraid but I would encourage you both to look it up in its context.

Mark

Oh by the way


Happy birthday (it is today according to the forum)

 

[BustedFlat]

Bustedflat, you have said many things in many posts that I have thought very good, this however is contrary to all of scripture, but I believe you know this. When Jesus saved the women caught in adultery He said, "go away and sin no more,"this does not fit in with living your life in sin (even were you saved).

It is the very heart of scripture. The whole need for Christ Jesus is that man can not make it to heaven by the law. We can not even get out of bed without sinning. Jesus sent her on her way knowing she, in the flesh, could never achieve what he has commanded. Thankfully we are commanded to try, not achieve.

Paul says in Romans 3 (I think) that the wages of sin is death, and then in 1 corinthians 6, "do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved," and then most importantly the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 12 possibly 13, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD."

The holiness that allows us to see the LORD is our accpetance of Jesus Christ into our life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive at that moment, no work of ours can give us that, only Jesus. Our inheritance is not the entrance to heaven but but the rewards that will be based on our works here,

I will leave you with what James says in chapter 1, which I also believe is the answer to Rossiecottons (is that your name or have you taken that from the Lord Of The Rings?) question,

"but we are lured and enticed by our own desires and when we give in they concieve sin, but sin when it is full grown gives birth to death."

a paraphrase I am afraid but I would encourage you both to look it up in its context.

Mark

More important question ... Are you married to Sam Gamgee?

Jam 1:15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


The giving in to sin, the embracing of sin, that can lead us away from Christ and toward Satan, At its fulfillment sin will lead you to reject the gift that is yours. God is not taking it away, you have not lost it, you have thrown it away.
There is not one among us who can make it through the day with out a sin in thought, a sin in deed, a sin by omission, a sin by commission. We all struggle with our sin. Only when we fully give in to it, it can lead us unto our deaths, not through losing our salvation, but by us rejecting it.

Oh by the way


Happy birthday (it is today according to the forum)

Beware the Ides of March! Thank you my brother.


What is your reading on First Corinthians 3:15?




1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


In Jesus




BustedFlat

 

[MarkEvan]

It is the very heart of scripture. The whole need for Christ Jesus is that man can not make it to heaven by the law. We can not even get out of bed without sinning. Jesus sent her on her way knowing she, in the flesh, could never achieve what he has commanded. Thankfully we are commanded to try, not achieve.

You are right that Jesus knows that we in the flesh can only go on sinning, but that is why we have been given the Spirit, it is by relying on that Spirit that often we find the way out of temptation (1 or 2 corinthians 10). This is the whole argument of Romans 8, live by the Spirit which is life and peace or live by the flesh which is death, without the Spirit it is impossible to walk a holy walk, but with the Spirit we must walk as He walked.

The holiness that allows us to see the LORD is our accpetance of Jesus Christ into our life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive at that moment, no work of ours can give us that, only Jesus. Our inheritance is not the entrance toi heaven but but the rewards that will be based on our works here,

IMO holiness is simply that holiness, that is walking in the light as He is in the light, if any of us walk in darkness while claiming to walk in the light we lie and do not do what is true, 1 John 3 (the passage on the relationship between a believer and sin) is IMO true scriptural holiness. I will not say that we do not do anything towards holiness because in my understanding of scripture we do, God gives us the means and the ability to walk in righteousness, but He will not make us do it, it requires our effort to resist sin, but I need to make it clear that I believe that without Jesus we can do nothing.

The giving in to sin, the embracing if sin, that can lead us away from Christ and toward Satan, At its fulfillment sin will lead you to reject the gift that is yours. God is not taking it away, you have not lost it, you have thrown it away.
There is not one among us who can make it through the day with out a sin in thought, a sin in deed, a sin by omission, a sin by commission. We all struggle with our sin. Only when we fully give in to it, it can lead us unto our deaths, not through losing our salvation, but by us rejecting it.

Hmmm I agree that it is our rejection of this gift, that causes us to be lost, however are you here talking of a believer or a non-believer?

What is your reading on First Corinthians 3:15?




1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I see it as referencing works not holiness, it isn`t here talking of sin IMO, it is possible to live a holy life and yet have all your works burned, but that comes down ultimately to what the works here talked of are, but that would be going off topic slightly, maybe you could start another thread, if you wish to go further with it (by no means do I claim to be any authority on this by the way).

More important question ... Are you married to Sam Gamgee?

Thats a good question.....come on rosie tell us!!

Beware the Ides of March! Thank you my brother.

You know I had forgotten about that......no worrys though theres nothing to these old wives tales.....and if God is for you who can be against you!


God bless


Mark

 

[BustedFlat]

You are right that Jesus knows that we in the flesh can only go on sinning, but that is why we have been given the Spirit, it is by relying on that Spirit that often we find the way out of temptation (1 or 2 corinthians 10). This is the whole argument of Romans 8, live by the Spirit which is life and peace or live by the flesh which is death, without the Spirit it is impossible to walk a holy walk, but with the Spirit we must walk as He walked.

But we are flesh, not Spirit. We wear dirty rags until Jesus clothes us in white. We can not, as flesh, walk as he walked, although we are called to try.

IMO holiness is simply that holiness, that is walking in the light as He is in the light, if any of us walk in darkness while claiming to walk in the light we lie and do not do what is true, 1 John 3 (the passage on the relationship between a believer and sin) is IMO true scriptural holiness. I will not say that we do not do anything towards holiness because in my understanding of scripture we do, God gives us the means and the ability to walk in righteousness, but He will not make us do it, it requires our effort to resist sin, but I need to make it clear that I believe that without Jesus we can do nothing.

Our only choice is to accept or reject the gift. The gift is given.

Hmmm I agree that it is our rejection of this gift, that causes us to be lost, however are you here talking of a believer or a non-believer?

A non-believer is only called that as they have as yet to accept the gift. In truth Satan believes in The Christ, he just does not accept him.

I see it as referencing works not holiness, it isn`t here talking of sin IMO, it is possible to live a holy life and yet have all your works burned, but that comes down ultimately to what the works here talked of are, but that would be going off topic slightly, maybe you could start another thread, if you wish to go further with it (by no means do I claim to be any authority on this by the way).

Holiness has nothing to do with it. We are only holy due to our acceptance of Jesus. Mother Tressa, for all her works would not be heaven but by the Grace of God. She on the other hand will have an abundance of riches in heaven I will never be able to achieve IMO.

Thats a good question.....come on rosie tell us!!



You know I had forgotten about that......no worrys though theres nothing to these old wives tales.....and if God is for you who can be against you!


God bless


Mark

Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.




In Jesus


BustedFlat

 

[rosiecotton]

Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.

In Jesus


BustedFlat

Sam is my favorite hobbit!!

 

[MarkEvan]

But we are flesh, not Spirit. We wear dirty rags until Jesus clothes us in white. We can not, as flesh, walk as he walked, although we are called to try.

You are right we are in the flesh however, when we are born again Gods Spirit lives within us and rebirths our Spirit, hence the choice walk according to the Spirit or the flesh. I agree that we cannot walk as He did in perfect and complete obediance, however we can walk in obediance to the level of growth that we are at, "if you love me obey my commandments."

Holiness has nothing to do with it. We are only holy due to our acceptance of Jesus. Mother Tressa, for all her works would not be heaven but by the Grace of God. She on the other hand will have an abundance of riches in heaven I will never be able to achieve IMO.

I agree that holiness has nothing to do with 1 corinthians 3, That was what I said, but works have everything to do with it.
Holiness cannot be only down to our acceptance of Jesus (allthough that is the start of it) otherwise one could be holy while backsliding, there therfore must be more to holiness than an acceptance of Jesus.

Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.

My favourite was Luthien, from the tale of Beren and Luthien, in the Silmarillion.

If I had to choose someone from the Lord Of The Rings then it would probably be Sam too, allthough Faramir would be a close second, as I really liked his charachter in the book, it`s far better than the film one.

Mark

 

[BustedFlat]

You are right we are in the flesh however, when we are born again Gods Spirit lives within us and rebirths our Spirit, hence the choice walk according to the Spirit or the flesh. I agree that we cannot walk as He did in perfect and complete obediance, however we can walk in obediance to the level of growth that we are at, "if you love me obey my commandments."

AMEN!!!

I agree that holiness has nothing to do with 1 corinthians 3, That was what I said, but works have everything to do with it.
Holiness cannot be only down to our acceptance of Jesus (allthough that is the start of it) otherwise one could be holy while backsliding, there therfore must be more to holiness than an acceptance of Jesus.

One is holy while the spirit abides in him. A backsliding Christian is still a Christian.

Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. 12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

My favourite was Luthien, from the tale of Beren and Luthien, in the Silmarillion.

If I had to choose someone from the Lord Of The Rings then it would probably be Sam too, allthough Faramir would be a close second, as I really liked his charachter in the book, it`s far better than the film one.

Mark

There were some lovely tails in the Silmarillion, but The Hobbit is the book I most like to read.

Everything was better in the books!



God Bless

BustedFlat

 

[Cris413]

2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.

I find it interesting you note this scripture. Which does not answer Rosie's question...but have you actually read 2 Peter 3:16?

 

[MarkEvan]

One is holy while the spirit abides in him. A backsliding Christian is still a Christian.

I agree that we can only be holy due to the Spirit that resides within us, but is someone who is backsliding walking in holiness? (perhapse that is a better way of putting it, walking in holiness). Personally I would say no, since to walk in holiness is the same as walking in righteousness and light. So the question becomes one of, what happens to the person who is backsliding if we are told, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD," and "do you not know my brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved."

There were some lovely tails in the Silmarillion, but The Hobbit is the book I most like to read.

Everything was better in the books!

Allthough I like the Silmarillion, I do find it a little disjointed at points, and you are right the hobbit is an easy book to read it`s not so convoluted not to many plots to follow, that said I still think that the Lord Of The Rings is my favourite.

God Bless

Mark

 

[BustedFlat]

I agree that we can only be holy due to the Spirit that resides within us, but is someone who is backsliding walking in holiness? (perhapse that is a better way of putting it, walking in holiness). Personally I would say no, since to walk in holiness is the same as walking in righteousness and light. So the question becomes one of, what happens to the person who is backsliding if we are told, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD," and "do you not know my brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved."



Allthough I like the Silmarillion, I do find it a little disjointed at points, and you are right the hobbit is an easy book to read it`s not so convoluted not to many plots to follow, that said I still think that the Lord Of The Rings is my favourite.

God Bless

Mark

Brother:


This will be my last words on this, as we both clearly believe in Christ Jesus we will have the whole Millennial Kingdom to discuss this and other points as we worship Him.


Inherit is not the same as enter. The only thing my salvation guarantees me is an entry in to the Kingdom. After that it is up to me to earn my inheritance (rewards).


As a whole The Lord of the Rings is a better work, but none of the three books are as enjoyable as The Hobbit. Also I was abel to share reading The Hobbit as a bed time story with my son and daughter well they were still young enough to do that sort of thing with dad.

I think the fact that The Silmarillion was put together and edited by Christopher and not written as a book made it difficult to read in parts. The fact I read it on an 18 hour plane ride from Montreal to Abidjan via Paris may have added to the problem.


God Bless


BustedFlat

 

[MarkEvan]

Brother:


This will be my last words on this, as we both clearly believe in Christ Jesus we will have the whole Millennial Kingdom to discuss this and other points as we worship Him.


Inherit is not the same as enter. The only thing my salvation guarantees me is an entry in to the Kingdom. After that it is up to me to earn my inheritance (rewards).


As a whole The Lord of the Rings is a better work, but none of the three books are as enjoyable as The Hobbit. Also I was abel to share reading The Hobbit as a bed time story with my son and daughter well they were still young enough to do that sort of thing with dad.

I think the fact that The Silmarillion was put together and edited by Christopher and not written as a book made it difficult to read in parts. The fact I read it on an 18 hour plane ride from Montreal to Abidjan via Paris may have added to the problem.


God Bless


BustedFlat

First let me say that I have enjoyed studying this with you, I know that you are a believer who takes love as the utmost importance and therefore allthough we may alter in beliefs in this small way we are agreed and together on the important things, the same I can also say of you Chris413 (if you are reading this).

As to the eternity together to discuss these things, I think that by then we will know the answer, as God Himself will have revealed it to us on the day of judgement, so there will be other things that we can discuss.

I will not go into what I believe as you already know, but I will exhort us to continue in faith working through love.


Mark


I can understand the special connection that you have with the hobbit, with reading it to your child, it must hold dear thoughts.