Losing salvation vs. once saved always saved

[ANM29]

There is no such thing as losing your salvation. That is a lie and trick of the enemy to keep God's people in bondage to something Christ died to free us from.

The bible is clear that nothing and nobody can separate us from the Love of God. Once you are his, you are his. GOd said he has adopted you...You are adopted into the family of God. There is nothing YOU can do to take that away. You may fall down, You may stumble, You may even walk away but you can't stay away if you are his. He will draw you back unto himself eventually.

A lot of people get saved, but they don't get filled with the Holy Spirit until later a lot of times. So, until then they tend to stumble A LOT or even backslide a lot in that stage..this can go on for years actually. Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you then are on another level with God. That does not mean you will not sin, but you are on another level. You have to experience it to know exactly what I mean..

It is not about whether or not you ever sin after your saved, you will sin and Jesus paid one big price to take care of your sins.

A real follower of Christ once they have been born-again and filled with the spirit can not be taken out of the hands of God by yourself or anything or anyone else. TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!! A real believer can't go out sinning without conviction of it, the Holy Spirit at some point will begin to deal with you about your sins and you will begin to change...It is all a process. It is a growth process...Everyone will grow at different stages. BUT, you will grow.

 

[MarkEvan]

A real follower of Christ once they have been born-again and filled with the spirit can not be taken out of the hands of God by yourself or anything or anyone else. TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!! A real believer can't go out sinning without conviction of it, the Holy Spirit at some point will begin to deal with you about your sins and you will begin to change...It is all a process. It is a growth process...Everyone will grow at different stages. BUT, you will grow.

Does God force you to change or is it your own choice? What if you don`t change....the wages of sin is death after all?

Mark

 

[ANM29]

Does God force you to change or is it your own choice? What if you don`t change....the wages of sin is death after all?

Mark

It is impossible to know the Lord and be saved and not change, it is impossible.

The Lord is in the business of changing lives. If you don't change, you were never saved in the first place.

I cant' say when you will exactly STOP a certain behavior, but your heart will be NEW and things began to change inside first and then it just began to see change in your behaviors that are ungodly..Some people are delivered of certain things instantly, other things take time..But, you will be in the process of growth always....

 

[Simon_Templar]

What is everyone's thoughts on this? A friend and I were discussing this last night. We both think you can lose your salvation, but we differed on what that line was. I am having a bit of a sin issue right now that I can't seem to beat, but I don't think I have lost my salvation. She seemed to think that since in this one area I was rebelling (or whatever you want to call it), that I have walked away from God. I guess you could say we were debating where the line was drawn. What do you all think? I'd like to look into it a little farther. I just think "losing salvation" is more when you completely turn your back on God and anything to do with Him, and walk away from everything. I don't think that because I am having a really difficult time that I'm not saved. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just wanted to hear some other opinions on it.

Yes you can 'lose' your salvation. However its not something that happens every time you do something wrong. You don't become unsaved every time you sin, and then need to be resaved etc.

This issue is difficult to understand partially because the western chruch has limited its concept of man's fallen state, and what redemption is.

We tend to think of falling from grace, and redemption as simply a matter of law. We fall because we break the law, and we are redeemed by having the penalty of the law satisfied. That is partially true, but its not the complete picture.

Sin and death came before the law. Before ever there was a law, sin existed, and it brought death. All the law did was make sin visible. It revealed the sin that was already present.

Our salvation is no longer in terms of law. We are already free from law, thus we are not incuring the penalty of breaking the law.
However, sin still brings harm. The danger of sin is that it hardens the heart and it steals life. The foundational aspect of our redemption was that we were dead, but through being joined to Christ, we have received his life. That life, and the relationship by which it comes, come through our heart or spirit. When we sin, it hardens that part of us and it deprives us of the abundant life that we should be experiencing.

Thus, when we struggle with sin (as I would say all of us do) we are not condemned because we sin, but if we allow ourselves to simply persist in sin, to surrender to sin, it will cause our hearts to grow cold. Then we come into danger of losing our life not because of our transgressions, but because in the hardness of our hearts, we come into danger of rejecting God.

In proverbs (if memory serves) it says that the righteous man is he who falls seven times, and seven times gets up and continues on. God knows that we will fall. What matters is that you get up again and you continue the fight. As long as we keep seeking freedom, and keep seeking righteousness, God will continue making all things new for us.

The great dangers are that you would become complacent in your sin, or worse, begin to justify your sin.

If you are struggling with a sin and you keep failing the first questions I would ask are... do you admit that what you are doing is wrong? and even though it is difficult, are you seeking freedom from it?

Truths about spiritual life are often visible in the facts of physical life. When you are trying to build strength physically, you must eat the right foods, and you must do the right exercises etc.
It is the same in spiritual life. If you wish to be spiritually healthy and strong, you need to eat the right foods. Those are things like reading scripture, praying, meditating on scripture and on God, communion, singing praises, etc. Those things are food and exercise to your spirit. Conversely, there are things which feed your flesh, rather than your spirit. You will likely know those things better than I.

spiritual discipline, like physical is difficult and usually not fun when you start.. yet it yields good results, even when it seems like work, the fruit of it is worth it. Remember that God wants you to succeed and he will guide you along. In the end, he is the one doing the work anyway. So go to him and ask.

I know from personal experience that it is easy, and common to assume that there is something wrong with you because you ask God for help but you still fail. It is hard on the faith. This is because many of us have been given the false idea that there is no work involved, and if we ask, it should just happen. We are not able to do the work... so God will do it through us, but we must still be involved. God is trying to teach us to over come. We must also realize that it is not as important that we adhere to "rules" as it is that we BECOME good and righteous. In order to become, we must be involved in the doing.

 

[MarkEvan]

It is impossible to know the Lord and be saved and not change, it is impossible.

The Lord is in the business of changing lives. If you don't change, you were never saved in the first place.

I cant' say when you will exactly STOP a certain behavior, but your heart will be NEW and things began to change inside first and then it just began to see change in your behaviors that are ungodly..Some people are delivered of certain things instantly, other things take time..But, you will be in the process of growth always....

I agree that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed by this, but my question was in reguards to continuing in sin as a believer....is it possible for someone who is born again to willfully continue in sin? And if so then what is the consequence of this? If not, then where are the passages that state that a believer will be forced to stay on the streight and narrow path?

Mark

 

[ANM29]

I agree that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed by this, but my question was in reguards to continuing in sin as a believer....is it possible for someone who is born again to willfully continue in sin?

Yes, you can willfully sin after being born-again, yes. You can't however continue in that sin forever. Eventually, you will have to stop at some point. God will not allow you to continue in sin in that area forever. Grace will cover you until you are totally set free.

And if so then what is the consequence of this? If not, then where are the passages that state that a believer will be forced to stay on the streight and narrow path?

Mark

The Holy Spirit will work with you in an area where you are struggling..Some strongholds take longer to break than others..After a while though God will begin to discipline you If you continue in that sin. God will discipline you and eventually the behavior will have to line up with the word of God.

Grace covers our sins. A real believer can't CONTINUE in sin the way we did before we were Christians. We are no longer slaves to sin, we now have the Holy Spirit that convicts our hearts..Some will have a longer period of deliverance than others, depending on what the stronghold was..But, we are being sanctified daily..


Romans 5:19-20

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

 

[MarkEvan]

Yes, you can willfully sin after being born-again, yes. You can't however continue in that sin forever. Eventually, you will have to stop at some point. God will not allow you to continue in sin in that area forever. Grace will cover you until you are totally set free.

So we agree that it is possible for believers to continue in sin, what I don`t get is where you say that a believer cannot continue in sin for ever, where do the scriptures teach this, if we agree that man has free will due to the Spirit within him, why do you say that God overides said free will at somepoint?
Grace does cover us, but if we continue in sin then Paul says there is only one outcome, "do you not know brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be decieved."

Mark

 

[ANM29]

So we agree that it is possible for believers to continue in sin, what I don`t get is where you say that a believer cannot continue in sin for ever, where do the scriptures teach this, if we agree that man has free will due to the Spirit within him, why do you say that God overides said free will at somepoint?
Grace does cover us, but if we continue in sin then Paul says there is only one outcome, "do you not know brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be decieved."

Mark

Of course believers sin every single day..The thing is that now we are no longer slaves to sin the way we once were before we knew the Lord. As believers we still need the Grace of God pouring in our lives too. Paul himself said the thing he does not want to do, he does.

Jesus took care of the sin problem with his death. We are being renewed daily, he is completing a work in us daily. We are not a finished product yet, nor will we be on earth. We will still slip up and need the Grace of God. .

I believe Paul is referring to those who claim to be believers. A true believer can never be snatched out of God's hand. Everyone claiming to be Christians are not. Everyone who says Lord, Lord has not been born-again.

Remember as we said a real Child of God will change and can't continue to sin willfully FOREVER in a certain area, it is impossible after a point.


There is a free-will, but no SOUL on earth is perfect..as long as you are in the flesh you will still have some issues. We will not be totally free of sin until we are out of these mortal bodies. Your free will has nothing to do with the Grace of God..Because of your free will we have Grace..Thank God! You can't get too caught up in works either, this could almost lead to that if you are not careful.

The difference is getting to a place where you are no longer willfully sinning AGAINST God, and that is where you want to be because then you will know you are really a child of God. When he disciplines you too, is proof you are his.

 

[flyingsum0]

Of course believers sin every single day..The thing is that now we are no longer slaves to sin the way we once were before we knew the Lord. As believers we still need the Grace of God pouring in our lives too. Paul himself said the thing he does not want to do, he does.

Jesus took care of the sin problem with his death. We are being renewed daily, he is completing a work in us daily. We are not a finished product yet, nor will we be on earth. We will still slip up and need the Grace of God. .

I believe Paul is referring to those who claim to be believers. A true believer can never be snatched out of God's hand. Everyone claiming to be Christians are not. Everyone who says Lord, Lord has not been born-again.

Remember as we said a real Child of God will change and can't continue to sin willfully FOREVER in a certain area, it is impossible after a point.


There is a free-will, but no SOUL on earth is perfect..as long as you are in the flesh you will still have some issues. We will not be totally free of sin until we are out of these mortal bodies. Your free will has nothing to do with the Grace of God..Because of your free will we have Grace..Thank God! You can't get too caught up in works either, this could almost lead to that if you are not careful.

The difference is getting to a place where you are no longer willfully sinning AGAINST God, and that is where you want to be because then you will know you are really a child of God. When he disciplines you too, is proof you are his.

NICE post lil Sis!
Jesus died for our sins, believe that!

Whenever doubt creeps into my heart or sin makes its way into actions, I try to remember that Jesus died for us, all of us...but He would have suffered just as greatly even if he had been saving only one of us.

You, me anyone, Jesus suffered so that we could have life again. That's plenty enough to sober me up when my mind goes astray...my salvation came at a great price, but not to me, to Him. I dont intend to give that away for any price.

 

[ANM29]

NICE post lil Sis!
Jesus died for our sins, believe that!

Whenever doubt creeps into my heart or sin makes its way into actions, I try to remember that Jesus died for us, all of us...but He would have suffered just as greatly even if he had been saving only one of us.

You, me anyone, Jesus suffered so that we could have life again. That's plenty enough to sober me up when my mind goes astray...my salvation came at a great price, but not to me, to Him. I dont intend to give that away for any price.

Great Price..and we are FORGIVEN! Thank you Lord!
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[MarkEvan]

Of course believers sin every single day..The thing is that now we are no longer slaves to sin the way we once were before we knew the Lord. As believers we still need the Grace of God pouring in our lives too. Paul himself said the thing he does not want to do, he does.

But doesn`t Jesus say in John 8 that you are a slave to whatever masters you, if we continue in a sin day after day, would you not say that that sin has mastered us, and Jesus then says "a slave does not have a place in the household." Of course I agree that we as believers need the grace of God continually poured in to our lives for without it we would perish, however that grace is to enable us to stand, for as God said to Paul, "my grace is sufficient for you," His grace is there for us that we may not sin, but if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. But we must ask for forgivness or we cannot be forgiven.

Jesus took care of the sin problem with his death. We are being renewed daily, he is completing a work in us daily. We are not a finished product yet, nor will we be on earth. We will still slip up and need the Grace of God.

I agree, Jesus did take care of sin on the cross, but if we continue in sin there is a price to pay, "for we are lured and enticed by our own desires and they concieve sin and sin when it is full grown gives birth to death," an unbeliever is already dead in their sins so this 'death' cannot refer to them, a believer who is born again is alive in Spirit, these are the only group of people that this passage (James 1 17+) can be talking about. The afeect of the cross, ie our washing clean in the blood, and our sins being removed as far as the east is from the west, is only available when we repent!

I believe Paul is referring to those who claim to be believers. A true believer can never be snatched out of God's hand. Everyone claiming to be Christians are not. Everyone who says Lord, Lord has not been born-again.

I agree that a true believer cannot be snatched out of His hand, but a believer can freely walk out, they can choose to become apostate. As to 1 corinthians 6, I always thought (due to the context, about believers wronging other believers) that this could only be refering to believers, otherwise what would be the point of Paul telling them not to be decieved?

Remember as we said a real Child of God will change and can't continue to sin willfully FOREVER in a certain area, it is impossible after a point.

I don`t remember saying that a real child of God will not continue in sin, they have that option, yeah someone who continues to walk as He walked will not continue in sin, but a believer can choose to walk in darkness, this is how the Spirit is grieved.

Of course believers sin every single day..The thing is that now we are no longer slaves to sin the way we once were before we knew the Lord. As believers we still need the Grace of God pouring in our lives too. Paul himself said the thing he does not want to do, he does.

The difference is getting to a place where you are no longer willfully sinning AGAINST God, and that is where you want to be because then you will know you are really a child of God. When he disciplines you too, is proof you are his.

Is there not a slight contradiction here? I may be being a bit thick though

Mark

 

[trentlogain]

someone metioned unforgivable sins and that blasphemy is one. can someone point to a bible verse that backs that up?

honestly, ive heard different things regarding this subject. murder and suicide included in unforgivable sins. i want clarification.

 

[VCViking]

once saved always saved



Some articles supporting once saved always saved:



http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/eternalsecurity.htm

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/html/1989/jun89.php

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/apologetics/AP0406W2B.htm

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/questionanswer/2003/may03a.php

 

[VCViking]

And some scripture:

John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

John 6:37-40: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 10:28-29: "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Romans 5:9-10: "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Some later manuscripts append "[and] who walk not according to the flesh (but according to the Spirit)")

Romans 8:31-39: "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, 'For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 11:29: "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

1 Corinthians 1:4-9: "I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge--even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you--so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ephesians 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Philippians 1:6: "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 7:25: "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

Hebrews 13:5: "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'"

1 Peter 1:5: "[the elect] by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Jude 1:24: "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,"

 

[VCViking]

I do not believe that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life in pencil. If that were the case my space would be a hole in the parchment.


I think it is funny that the verse that set off the reformation is an Old Testament verse:

Hab 2:4¶Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.






In Jesus




BustedFlat

 

[VCViking]

I just can't see anything being powerful enough to pull Christ out of you, erase the Holy Spirit, wash away Christ's atonement and snatch you out of God's hand.

 

[marshgreencohen]

When I was stuggling someone showed me this verse that help me get past the tuff areas.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your character or moral disposition be free from
love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down ( relax My hold on you)! [ Assuredly not!]

a great scriptural feed...

 

[andross77]

someone metioned unforgivable sins and that blasphemy is one. can someone point to a bible verse that backs that up?

honestly, ive heard different things regarding this subject. murder and suicide included in unforgivable sins. i want clarification.

The Unpardonable Sin can be found in Matthew 12 and Mark 3. It is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. There is NO OTHER unpardonable sin. I think traditionally Catholics believe suicide to be, but there is no place in Scripture to back this up. Scripture does not tell us that you must say "I'm sorry" for every single sin or else you are condemned to hell and so since you can't ask forgiveness on earth for killing yourself, it must be unpardonable. That is not supported by Scripture.

You'll have to read up what Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is, but my understanding is that it is attributing the works of the Devil to Jesus. Some say that since Jesus is not physically walking the Earth anymore, it is impossible to commit the Unpardonable Sin. If it is attributing the works of the Devil to the Holy Spirit, then it is possible.

In summation, Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is basically unbelief in Jesus. This lines up with all the rest of Scripture that tells us there is only ONE name under heaven by which we must be saved.

Hope this helps.

Peace