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Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

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AVBunyan

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Shelb5 said:
Your ignorance about Catholicism and history is astonishing, I feel sad for you. Christ offered the first mass in the upper room and he instructed us to “Do this” in memory of Him.
I will be as nice as I can here and then call it quits while we are still somewhat repspectful - I have sought not to argue Catholicism with you but to try to point you to what the scriptures say about the Lord Jesus Christ and Calvary for your benefit and edification not my own for my salvation is secure in Christ.

I can say with a clear conscience that I know and understand more about your religion then you will ever know - you may not believe that but then again that is fine - my conscience is void of offence towards God and man on this matter.

The words of AV1611 are ended on this matter.

May God grant you peace in Christ
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Mark the Builder said:
Netpreacher -- are you saying that Christians never sin????
:scratch:
mark

(and AV)
I'm curious Netpreacher - I'd like to see your answer also. I would think Netpreacher that you really didn't mean that.
Hi Mark and AV...
Just some thoughts on this:
1 John 3:9 Webster
9 Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.


Fantastic verse! The important words to see in this verse are "for his seed remaineth in him".
What part of your human makeup is this "seed"?
Is it your spirit, soul, or body?
I think we can all agree it is your spirit:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Webster
17 Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things have passed away; behold, all things have
become new.


When you were born again, your body and soul remained the same as they were. They were not done away with and made completely new. Your spirit was! It was replaced by the spirit of Christ:

Galatians 2:20 Webster
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh,
I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me,
and gave himself for me.


The new spirit that is in you, which is "His seed", cannot sin. It is holy and righteous just like Jesus:

Ephesians 4:24 Webster
24 And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness
and true holiness.


If we walk according to the ability of this new spirit, we will never sin. We will always do what God would do in every situation. We cannot sin when we do this.

Now the problem. We do not always walk according to ability of the spirit of Christ in us. We should, but we sometimes fail. Sometimes we walk according to the leadings of our flesh and unrenewed mind. This always causes us to sin:

Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the spirit,
and ye will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit,
and the spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other;
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye are led by the spirit,
ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest,
which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like:
of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


The challenge for every believer is to walk according to the perfect spirit of Christ that has been born into us. It is only then that we do not sin outwardly.
 
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AVBunyan

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Shelb5 said:
AV, You believe a false account of history. I am sorry that you do. I feel sad for you
Sorry, not finished - couldn't resist - don't feel sad for me:
I'm forgiven - Eph. 1:7
I'm blessed with all spiritual belssings in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 1:3
I'm in Christ - Eph. 1:1
I'm seated in heaven places as you read this - Eph. 2:6
I'm glorified - Rom. 8:30
I'm justified - Gal. 2:16
I've been made righteousness - Rom. 3:22
I'm sealed - Eph. 1:13
I'm redeemed - Eph. 1:7
I'm regenerated - Titus 3:5
I'm sanctified - I Cor. 1:30
I'm bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh - Eph. 5:30
And much much more.

No, I appreciate your concern but don't be sad for me.
I'm doing just fine in Christ
clap.gif
but thank you for your concern though.
 
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geocajun

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Oh I get it, its one of those - lets see who can produce the most scripture to back up our argument dialogues huh?

Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 - we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere will be raised up.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that many people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21: 7 -we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV

Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace.

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of St. Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 - take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.

Heb. 4:6 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 - we are all called to God, but we must "work" hard to keep our calling. By grace we participate in our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (destined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24 - the righteous can turn away from their righteousness, and their prior good deeds will be forgotten.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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This is a very good instance to illustrate the saying that "people can prove whatever they want from the Bible..."
They can.... it all depends on which scriptures you choose to interpret in the light of the other.
It takes more than stacks of verses to come to a correct understanding of the Word. We need to rightly divide the word. It cannot mean two, seemingly contradictory things.
I am curious if we will just continue to toss more and more wood on the fire, or will we attempt to reconcile the differences?
Peace
Didy
 
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geocajun

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didaskalos said:
This is a very good instance to illustrate the saying that "people can prove whatever they want from the Bible..."
They can.... it all depends on which scriptures you choose to interpret in the light of the other.
It takes more than stacks of verses to come to a correct understanding of the Word. We need to rightly divide the word. It cannot mean two, seemingly contradictory things.
I am curious if we will just continue to toss more and more wood on the fire, or will we attempt to reconcile the differences?
Peace
Didy
that's a very good point, and I am glad you said it.

I hope it was apparent in the first statement of my previous post that I was simply demonstrating that we can all support our particular beliefs in scripture.

of course we also have to recognize when we arent being heard, and I think Shelb, myself and to a smaller extent AV have tried to reach eachother but this does not appear to be going anywhere.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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geocajun said:
that's a very good point, and I am glad you said it.

I hope it was apparent in the first statement of my previous post that I was simply demonstrating that we can all support our particular beliefs in scripture.

of course we also have to recognize when we arent being heard, and I think Shelb, myself and to a smaller extent AV have tried to reach eachother but this does not appear to be going anywhere.
Thank you friend Christ!
I am still curious how we as honest, good hearted believers reconcile what seems to be contradicting points of view. I am not advocating a battle :eek: , only some ideas that might bring us together into a understanding. It this one of those topics that we should maybe just put on the back burner for some future time?
Peace
Didy
 
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Bonhoffer

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AVBunyan said:
There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it. Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them. OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7

2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24

3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13

4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15

5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6

6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11

7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30

8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13

9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30

10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3

11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12

12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6

13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1

14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27

15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30

And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again. Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again. Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again! My what a life! About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen. Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!

May God richly bless
wave.gif

As I understand it stand it at your salvation you are forgiven not only for the Sins you have commited but for all the Sins you will commit in the future! So there is no need to lose salvation and get it back again!

Also I strongly beleive that someone cant lose their salvation. Now that I am saved I WILL be going to Heaven whether like it or not!! Even if I decided tommorrow that I'd sooner go to Hell then its tough look because I can't change anything now.
 
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AVBunyan

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Bonhoffer said:
1.Also I strongly beleive that someone cant lose their salvation.
2. Now that I am saved I WILL be going to Heaven whether like it or not!!
3. Even if I decided tommorrow that I'd sooner go to Hell then its tough look because I can't change anything now.
1. Amen

2. Good stuff Bonhoffer - and it appears in this sad day of Christianity some seem to like it better down here.

3. Funny stuff, Bon, I like it - preach it
tongue.gif


May God bless
hug.gif
 
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geocajun

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didaskalos said:
Thank you friend Christ!
I am still curious how we as honest, good hearted believers reconcile what seems to be contradicting points of view. I am not advocating a battle :eek: , only some ideas that might bring us together into a understanding. It this one of those topics that we should maybe just put on the back burner for some future time?
Peace
Didy
- I think the most important thing is that we always remember that every Christian has tremendous dignity by virtue of simply being a Christian.

- We should celebrate the fact that all of our brothers and sisters in Christ have heard the Gospel from someone they were willin to listen too - however imperfectly they may understand it.

- We should also recognize that some people are not going to listen, and with those people we should not attempt to dialogue as it is will only lead to hard feelings.

- It is my very short lived experience in ecumenism that generally it isn't the faith we disagree on, but rather our expression it. This means we have to be ready to learn new words, and apply their use in different terms that we may be accustomed too.

I suppose I could add more, but I have got to go run some errands for my wife :)
good talking to you!
 
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Netpreacher

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I have just one question: can a Christian lose their faith? If so, will the Lord bless their previous faith with eternal salvation in the end, even if they didn't perservere in the end?

Please, do not use the "they were never saved in the first place" argument, if you can.
 
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Netpreacher

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Mark the Builder said:
Netpreacher -- are you saying that Christians never sin????

:scratch:

mark
Correct

1 John tells us very plainly that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin. Some people may want to use grace as an excuse to check out a girl once in a while, but it doesn't fly with God. Some people may want to use grace as an excuse to say within themselves, "Man, I wish I had more money," but God knows the covetous man better than they themselves. Instead of looking for excuses and ways out of God's commandments, maybe we should just stick to the Bible and "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, which is in Heaven, is perfect."

Two Questions for the Board:
Why would Jesus Christ, under the New Covenant, command His children to be perfect if (notice the word "if") He knew they couldn't be perfect? Is God up in heaven enjoying it when His children fail? Of course, some people may say, "Well, then it gives God the glory by making sinners dependant upon His righteousness rather than their own." Well said; and if a sinner is dependant upon the righteousness of God, don't you think the sinner would be righteous?

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

:bow: :priest: makes me :mad:
 
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NotTroy

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I know its not really been discussed since the start of the thread, but about the unforgivable sin, blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

Basically, the reason people say that a believer cannot commit this sin is that it requires one to deny the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what leads on to salvation, and denying this power by attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satanic power is cutting off all possibility of being saved because the Holy Spirit can no longer work through the person. The person won't really care that they can no longer be saved because they didn't believe in the whole thing to begin with. A good way to tell that you haven't commited the unforgivable sin is through conviction. A believer is convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit residing within them and if the Holy Spirit is still working on you then you haven't rejected it.

http://www.carm.org/questions/blasphemy.htm

A good link arguing for eternal security.

http://www.faithfulhope.com/readingroom/item.cfm?doc_id=9399

I personally hold to the "OSAS" position of the issue. One of the many reasons is that legalisim is one of the primary things Paul had to fight against in his day, and that Scripture tells us that being a Christian is not supposed to be burdensome. We are freed in Christ and even though we do not have to worry about sin seperating us from Christ, we do have to try to live a sinless life in order to bring others into Christ by our example. This is why one should try to avoid sin, not because they are afraid of losing eternal life.
 
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thereselittleflower

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AVBunyan said:
Shelb5 – I don’t think I have it in me to go much further with this issue – what I have put down in writing earlier about what I believe about justification and then answer the questions took it all out of me for now - sorry. I don’t just cut and paste I seek to put down what I’ve digested over the years and this can be taxing on the ole’ brain cells. “I read your post and must ask do you realize that Catholics make satisfaction for their sins both big and small through the sacrifice of the mass (which is Calvary for those who don't know).”

I definitely don’t want to go into the mass issue much – I understand what Rome teaches about the mass and I have researched its origins (read “Two Babylons” by Hislop – irrefutable evidence written in the 1800’s). I will state what I believe without seeking to defend it much.


Hi AVBunyan

I read what you had to say aobut the "Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop . . and that you feel it is irrefutable evidence that substantiates your position . . I know it used to be looked at in that way, but I wonder if you are aware of something?

Ralph Woodrow, the author of the very popular book Babylon Mystery Religion based his work on Hislop's Two Babylons - so popular was his own book, Babylon Mystery Religion , that it was translated into several languages and he was looked on as an expert in the this field of study . . .

He has since pulled his book, Babylon Mystery Religion even though it was imensly popular because he realized he needed to carefully research Hislop's work due to concerns being circulated as to its accuracy . . he very carefully and prayerfully researched Hislop's claims, citations, etc . . and eventually came to the conclusion that it was based on myths, fabrication, and information taken out of context . . he could no longer, in good faith before God or man, promote his own book or allow it to be sold because it was not based on truth. . .

Hislop has indeed been refuted . .

Here is a link to Ralph Woodrow's own account of this in his own words . . I think you will find it very interesting to read . .

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:MwVdytU4iw4J:www.equip.org/free/DC187.pdf+Two+Babylons+by+Hislop+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

It is one thing to honestly disagree when the real facts are known . .

It is another thing altogether to hold to wrong beliefs and conclusions because they are based, however unintentionally, on wrong facts and false information . .

I hope you will seek the truth, rather than rely on someone else's falsehood . .


Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Netpreacher said:
Correct

1 John tells us very plainly that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin. Some people may want to use grace as an excuse to check out a girl once in a while, but it doesn't fly with God. Some people may want to use grace as an excuse to say within themselves, "Man, I wish I had more money," but God knows the covetous man better than they themselves. Instead of looking for excuses and ways out of God's commandments, maybe we should just stick to the Bible and "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, which is in Heaven, is perfect."

Two Questions for the Board:
Why would Jesus Christ, under the New Covenant, command His children to be perfect if (notice the word "if") He knew they couldn't be perfect? Is God up in heaven enjoying it when His children fail? Of course, some people may say, "Well, then it gives God the glory by making sinners dependant upon His righteousness rather than their own." Well said; and if a sinner is dependant upon the righteousness of God, don't you think the sinner would be righteous?

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny
Well, if what 1 john is really saying is that a believer will never commit another sin in their entire life after they come to Christ, then why would he say this in the same book?

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:



Notice the conjuction . . first he says that he is writing these things so they don't sin (if, as believers and children of God, they automatically wouldn't sin, why would he even need to right them anything about it to help them to not isn in the first place?), and then he says, AND IF you sin, you have an advocate . . Jesus!

It is obvious to me that the earlier mentionings of believers not sinning is qualified . .it does not mean that we will never commit another sin again in our life, but that we will not live in sin, we will be moving away from sin . . it has to be understood in its proper context, not in an interpretation divorced from all other words of his or of the gospel . .

John says earlier:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


John is speaking to believers. . he includes himself . . he says "we" . . and that "we" sin, and that if "we" confes our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness . .

He is speaking in the present, after they have become believers with him and children of God, about "when" they do sin on what to do to be cleansed of that sin . .

He also says:


1Jo 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


This is speaking of the present moving into the future . .something that one is doing and will continue to do to reach a goal, something that has not yet been achieved yet, somthing that is still in the future . . to be pure . . they are not pure yet, but they are in the process of purifying themselves . .


Peace in Him!




 
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Arc

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I believe once we are saved we can loose our salvation by walking in the flesh as Paul put it.

Here are a few verses maybe someone could explain:

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Was he kidding? Falling away from grace? But I thought there was nothing we could do to loose it since there is nothing we do to get it.

Heb 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 "This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."17 Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ can still loose their salvation, but only by their own doing.

And what about:
James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

and:
Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

"If you continue in your faith" signifies that man plays an active (not passive) part (note: after he is saved) to continue in his hope held out in the Gospel.

Faith comes from hearing (the Gospel from God that changes the heart) and believing (mans part).

Just as the trinity is one God revealed in 3 persons who are etranally distinct, salvation that comes by grace alone can be then forefitted by "new" man (no longer reprobate man). Both of these are true, both are hard to comprehend.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Here we see Paul upset with men who have recieved the Spirit but are continuing in sin by following the law. The point is they have already recieved the Spirit, but Paul doesn't sit back and say "you've done it, relax". He tells them to live by the Spirit. Why? Because if they continue to sow to the flesh they will "not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal 5:21)

My point is salvation can be lost by indulging the sinful nature that still exists.
 
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Netpreacher

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NotTroy said:
I know its not really been discussed since the start of the thread, but about the unforgivable sin, blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

Basically, the reason people say that a believer cannot commit this sin is that it requires one to deny the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what leads on to salvation, and denying this power by attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satanic power is cutting off all possibility of being saved because the Holy Spirit can no longer work through the person. The person won't really care that they can no longer be saved because they didn't believe in the whole thing to begin with. A good way to tell that you haven't commited the unforgivable sin is through conviction. A believer is convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit residing within them and if the Holy Spirit is still working on you then you haven't rejected it.

http://www.carm.org/questions/blasphemy.htm

A good link arguing for eternal security.

http://www.faithfulhope.com/readingroom/item.cfm?doc_id=9399

I personally hold to the "OSAS" position of the issue. One of the many reasons is that legalisim is one of the primary things Paul had to fight against in his day, and that Scripture tells us that being a Christian is not supposed to be burdensome. We are freed in Christ and even though we do not have to worry about sin seperating us from Christ, we do have to try to live a sinless life in order to bring others into Christ by our example. This is why one should try to avoid sin, not because they are afraid of losing eternal life.
According to the context of the "unpardonable sin," the only sin you cannot be forgiven is if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost by calling the work of God the work of the devil. When Jesus was healing people, the Pharisees said He healed them by the power of the devil rather than the power of God. And the Pharisees were not forgiven of this sin.

Instead of trying to fit Scripture into our molds, let us make the Scripture our mold to believe.

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

:bow: :priest: makes me :mad:
 
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Netpreacher

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If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth; But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself aslso so to walk, even as he walked. [1 John 1:6-2:6]

Here are some points concerning the previous passage:

If we say we are in Jesus Christ, yet walk in darkness, then we are liars. Rebellion and disobedience to God is a proof of walking in darkness and not doing the truth (notice the word doing, meaning an act of the will done autonomously of any outward force), and anyone that disobeys God and claims faith to Christ Jesus is a liar.

If we walk in Christ Jesus by faith in Him, then we have true fellowship with one another, AND the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. Sin is an act of the will: when we disobey God's known commandments, it is an act of rebellion by a disobedient creature; however, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, which implies that even the act itself, or even the impulse to sin, is cleansed from our heart. If you don't believe that, then you truly do not have fellowship in the light, and the truth is not in you.

If we come to God and say, "I have never sinned," then the truth is not in you. If you come to God and say, "I have sinned, and I require your righteousness, as well as your grace for forgiveness of my sins, in order to truly walk righteously," then God will grant you the forgiveness of your sins by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and then you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, which will seal you until the day of redemption.

One question: why is the Holy Ghost called holy? Because it causes HOLINESS! This is the first fruit of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, which will infuse the true believer with correct righteousness according to the grace and mercy of the Almighty God through faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Why did the Holy Ghost inspire John to write this letter? SO WE WILL NOT SIN. But, if we sin, it is not "once lost, always lost;" for we have an advocate with God who will always tell His Father, "He is repentant; that man will walk according to your ways from now on. Give him another chance." If you use this to continue in your sins, then you are a liar in your profession to Christ, and you will be with those who shall depart from the throne room of God for your hypocrisy and lies.

How do we know that we know God in truth? When we obey God!!! When we walk without sin in this adulterous generation!!! Don't use the verses that give us a way of grace in order to say, "We'll sin every day!" If you think you're going to sin in thought, word, or deed every day of your life, then you will sin every day, but God will throw you into hell not only for your wickedness, but also for throwing the stumbling-block of sin in their paths, whereby millions of professing Christians have fallen by the way side due to the inconsistency of evil men pretending to be Christ-like.

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

:bow: :priest: makes me :mad:
 
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HolyGuardianAngels

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I can see your point, but Christ spoke of the Holy Spirit before it was imparted to us. Like I said I am not sure that a Christian can commit this offense, in fact if I remember right it was proven to me that a Christian could not. I just have to find the notes :) I agree with your original post I just wanted to toss in a point that could be debatable as that is my nature. So I guess my assertion is that prior to accepting Jesus Christ as the crucified, resurrected Son of the Living God that there maybe something you can do that can stop you from ever being in the place spiritually to accept that. I do not think that you can lose Salvation. That would be arrogance actually, to think that I could undo God's work and give back His gifts. Praise God that we are eternally saved.

Now where are those dadgum notes?!?



:wave:

Why do you think Jesus gave us these WORDS . . .


"Look, you are well;
do NOT sin anymore,
so that nothing WORSE may happen to you." John 5:14 NAB






[bible]John 5:14[/bible]









[bible]John 5:1-18[/bible]








If someone could be eternally saved,
by the recitation of ONE simple prayer . . .
and that person continued a life of sin . . . What possible could be, the WORSE thing that could come upon the healed blind man above, IF he were to sin AGAIN . . . and note that Christ healed many, many, many . . .


SIN separates us from our Loving Maker
(God) and with each and every sin, one becomes a slave to sin and drifts futher from God . . .


If you put all your "Eggs" into one PRAYER
(basket), do you think you will be unhappilly surprised on "judgement day", if you have mortal sins on your soul . . .

And if these moral sins are there, because you felt you were "eternally saved", and that nothing, but, nothing, could ever prevent you from gaining Heaven; cuz you believed you had NO NEED to make reparation, do penance or go to confession . . . What then . . .












You said:
I do not think that you can lose Salvation. That would be arrogance actually, to think that I could undo God's work and give back His gifts. Praise God that we are eternally saved.




For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to His Son the possession of LIFE in Himself. John 5: 26 NAB










[bible]John 5:26[/bible]








The GIFT of God :crossrc: goes to the repentant . . .
NOT to those who love to sin . . .


:angel:
 
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