Looks, money and intelligence...

[Crowns&Laurels]

I don't see what intellect has to do with 'modesty' or devotion. Modesty isn't really a thing, and devotion is dependent on values and commitment to them, not intelligence.

I think that's simply trying to justify immodesty. People of intellect tend to naturally be more modest, and when people get older and wiser, they become more modest even still.
Abrahamic religion in general basically calls immodesty foolish, as fools make spectacles of themselves.

 

[Unix]

Obviously I'm not a muslim, but if generalizing and applying "faith" to my religion, I wouldn't say intellect isn't included in it - at least in my approach:

Skills, work, and intellect aren't part of the definition of faithful. And praying 5 times a day, and not eating pork, is moronic (unless for reasons like health):

Theres another muslim value IIRC: marry the faithful. Note, not wealthy, good looking or intelligent. But faithful... Life skills, work, intellect etc are included in this, but theres a spiritual dimension too.

 

[Paradoxum]

I think that's simply trying to justify immodesty.

There's nothing to justify. Immodesty isn't even a tiny bit bad, and the word has no objective meaning. 'Modesty' in the West is different from that of the Middle East, or some tribes.

People of intellect tend to naturally be more modest,

Is that true? I don't know. I'm not sure there's any connection between intelligence and modesty.

and when people get older and wiser, they become more modest even still.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with being wiser. There isn't much wisdom is covering up when it isn't necessary. Also, older people in some cultures we might consider half naked.

Abrahamic religion in general basically calls immodesty foolish, as fools make spectacles of themselves.

What is foolish about making a scene, if no one is harmed? I'd say the fool is the person who thinks less clothing, or complete nudity, is inherently wrong. It's just what we really look like.

 

[Paradoxum]

Obviously I'm not a muslim, but if generalizing and applying "faith" to my religion, I wouldn't say intellect isn't included in it - at least in my approach:

Intellect isn't part of the definition of faith. You can be intelligent and faithful, just like you can be intelligent and peaceful, but that doesn't mean intelligence is part of their definitions. They are separate concepts.

You can be very faithful, but not very intelligent, or even use the intelligence you have as much as you could. If someone is very faithful, you wouldn't expect them to be good at maths (or whatever academic subject), like you would if you knew they were intelligent. The concepts mean different things.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

There's nothing to justify. Immodesty isn't even a tiny bit bad

Yes it is. It's a device that causes vanity, envy, lust, greed, and all the vices of the Bible. It's why the Bible is so outspoken about it. It's also foolish because when people make spectacles of themselves others know the intent. A woman for example showing her assets is not making a mere fashion statement. That may be the 'official' notion but it's a lie that society feeds itself. There's nothing innocent of immodesty.

 

[Paradoxum]

Yes it is. It's a device that causes vanity, envy, lust, greed, and all the vices of the Bible.

It could cause vanity, but I'd say more likely someone can just be proud of their body, and confidence is different from vanity.

If you envy someone's body, then eat less and work out. The problem with you, not the other person.

Lust, against it up to you, and I don't think lust is bad anyway. Lust can be a good thing.

I don't know what greed has to do with t.

It's why the Bible is so outspoken about it. It's also foolish because when people make spectacles of themselves others know the intent. A woman for example showing her assets is not making a mere fashion statement. That may be the 'official' idea but it's a lie that society feeds itself. There's nothing innocent of immodesty.

Okay, if a woman shows her 'assets', where's the problem?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Okay, if a woman shows 'her assets', where's the problem?

It's disrespectful to look, which is paradoxical. It's also a great insight into the depths of the sin itself.
You need to look into it more.

 

[Paradoxum]

It's disrespectful to look, which is paradoxical. It's also a great insight into the depths of the sin itself.
You need to look into it more.

So what's the problem?

 

[joshua 1 9]

An angel was offered either intellect, modesty or devotion. It took intellect and the other two came along with it. For where true intellect is, there also are modesty and devotion found.

For us to choose intellect that is going to involved diet and exercise. WE can not be out doing things to dull our senses and expect to have a clear mind and clear intellect.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Valhalla is described as a bit more than just a bunch of men getting smashed. They ARE in the presence of their gods, who eat the same food and drink the same drink as they do. They also fight endless battles against each other, being regenerated each day. And why do they do this? So that they can better fight at the side of their gods during the last battle, Ragnarok. Their tests and labours aren't over after death, and only the worthy are allowed to serve in this way, the rest are condemened to hel.

What does this tell us about their concept of faith? It tells us that those who have proved themselves worthy are taken to the side of their gods, to enjoy the fruit of their faith, but also to prepare for serving their gods until the end of time. Why would you belittle such a notion?

Only a irrational culture would teach the virtues of drunken fighting. Drunkeness deminishes the intellect, and fighting is a very grave affair. The two ought never go hand in hand.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Intellect isn't part of the definition of faith. You can be intelligent and faithful, just like you can be intelligent and peaceful, but that doesn't mean intelligence is part of their definitions. They are separate concepts.

You can be very faithful, but not very intelligent, or even use the intelligence you have as much as you could. If someone is very faithful, you wouldn't expect them to be good at maths (or whatever academic subject), like you would if you knew they were intelligent. The concepts mean different things.

Well that depends. If you think that intelligence is not just passing IQ tests, but in ones genuine interessts, maybe ((an atheist, as they often seem to)) could argue that theists are unintelligent, even if the standardised IQ of the theist is the same as the atheist.

An atheist knows reality, and that is important in orienting ourselves behaviourally.Thats why "faith" is "moronic" right?


In fact peole with high IQs, or having high level qualifications, in present times tend to be atheist or non religious, also??

I think that an analogous case is made in the shi'a book, to the initial point. The theist is intelligent, or posesses intellect, because he knows his place in the overall scheme of things and acts accordingly, which is in his ultimate interests to do so.

Thse signs are what to look out for:

Travel in the land and find out about the fate of those who rejected the Truth (koran 3:137)

I tink at present the so called West of focused in secular haq (truth), the ilm ul shahadah (empirical knowledge).

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Intellect tends to bring looks.

As I learned here, beauty (or handsomeness) is not just appearance, but relates to body language, attitude, ones "spirituality" etc.

Is personal aesthetics gendered, and therefore learned?

I think its odd that we know this, and yert the "civilised world" is selling us fashion as an apparent means to become attractive. The higher the price too, the more attractive youll be - apparently.

In Islam the ranks of the pious are determined in part by good clothing too, in part! You gotta try to look (and smell) good if possible.

Its something you have to "buy into" and "work for", to achieve status you not only have to "look good".

The middle agedand adult, well us its gender constructs of "man cars", "man pies" , "man dancing" and and "radio voices" etc. Ok its fun, Ill accept that. But is fun the telos of man?

"Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children. " Koran 57:20


This is the Muslim advice:

"And be moderate (or show no insolence, be smooth, easy, frugal, thrifty) in your walking, and lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the ass."

Ok, clothing matters, cars are hepful, but if the true beauty or handsomeness within ones inner nature, is not nurtured, then what good are lovely clothes on a poverty stricken soul.

Is that a function of personal lack of wit? An all must learn to stand alone mentality.



"Nothing can soften the hardness of the heart like the remembrance of Allah. Zikr is healing and medicine for the heart. " - Hasan Basri

"Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him. 2For of the most High cometh healing, and he shall receive honour of the king. 3The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration." Ecclasiasticus 38:1

"It is He who sent down Sakeena (tranquility) into the hearts of the believers that they may add Faith to their Faith; for to Allah belong the forces of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." Koran 48:4

 

[Nithavela]

Only a irrational culture would teach the virtues of drunken fighting. Drunkeness deminishes the intellect, and fighting is a very grave affair. The two ought never go hand in hand.

Well, first they fought, then they drunk. Considering that the Norse were very good at fighting and sailing, it couldn't have been that bad.

 

[bhsmte]

Intellect tends to bring looks.

As I learned here, beauty (or handsomeness) is not just appearance, but relates to body language, attitude, ones "spirituality" etc.

Is personal aesthetics gendered, and therefore learned?

I think its odd that we know this, and yert the "civilised world" is selling us fashion as an apparent means to become attractive. The higher the price too, the more attractive youll be - apparently.

In Islam the ranks of the pious are determined in part by good clothing too, in part! You gotta try to look (and smell) good if possible.

Its something you have to "buy into" and "work for", to achieve status you not only have to "look good".

The middle agedand adult, well us its gender constructs of "man cars", "man pies" , "man dancing" and and "radio voices" etc. Ok its fun, Ill accept that. But is fun the telos of man?

"Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children. " Koran 57:20


This is the Muslim advice:

"And be moderate (or show no insolence, be smooth, easy, frugal, thrifty) in your walking, and lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the ass."

Ok, clothing matters, cars are hepful, but if the true beauty or handsomeness within ones inner nature, is not nurtured, then what good are lovely clothes on a poverty stricken soul.

Is that a function of personal lack of wit? An all must learn to stand alone mentality.



"Nothing can soften the hardness of the heart like the remembrance of Allah. Zikr is healing and medicine for the heart. " - Hasan Basri

"Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him. 2For of the most High cometh healing, and he shall receive honour of the king. 3The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration." Ecclasiasticus 38:1

"It is He who sent down Sakeena (tranquility) into the hearts of the believers that they may add Faith to their Faith; for to Allah belong the forces of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." Koran 48:4

Intellect tends to bring looks?

I have been in medicine for over 20 years and have been around highly intelligent people (physicians) on a day to day basis.

In my experience, many highly intelligent people are not physically attractive and can be quite clumsy in their demeanor and body language and often, socially inept.

 

[Paradoxum]

Well that depends. If you think that intelligence is not just passing IQ tests, but in ones genuine interessts, maybe ((an atheist, as they often seem to)) could argue that theists are unintelligent, even if the standardised IQ of the theist is the same as the atheist.

I don't think being theist makes you unintelligent. There are obviously intelligent Christians.

An atheist knows reality, and that is important in orienting ourselves behaviourally.Thats why "faith" is "moronic" right?

Well atheism isn't necessarily about intelligence. I'd say it's more about questioning, using reason, and being less biased towards nice religious answers.

In fact peole with high IQs, or having high level qualifications, in present times tend to be atheist or non religious, also??

Perhaps I'm wrong, but people with higher education tend to be more atheist, I think.

I think that an analogous case is made in the shi'a book, to the initial point. The theist is intelligent, or posesses intellect, because he knows his place in the overall scheme of things and acts accordingly, which is in his ultimate interests to do so.

I don't think correct knowledge is intelligence. An unintelligent person can be correct, and an intelligent person incorrect.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Well that depends. If you think that intelligence is not just passing IQ tests, but in ones genuine interessts, maybe ((an atheist, as they often seem to)) could argue that theists are unintelligent, even if the standardised IQ of the theist is the same as the atheist.

I don't think that theists are necessarily unintelligent.

An atheist knows reality, and that is important in orienting ourselves behaviourally.Thats why "faith" is "moronic" right?

Who is saying that faith is moronic?

In fact peole with high IQs, or having high level qualifications, in present times tend to be atheist or non religious, also??

Is that your problem with intelligence? Do you blame high intelligence for promoting atheism?

I think that an analogous case is made in the shi'a book, to the initial point. The theist is intelligent, or posesses intellect, because he knows his place in the overall scheme of things and acts accordingly, which is in his ultimate interests to do so.

An atheist may be intelligent in that way as well.

But I don't think that having a correct worldview means that one is intelligent. One could argue that such a person is wise, but intelligence is not required or implied by that, although I do think it would help.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ana the Ist]

Isnt following God ideally in ones interests, because God is good? The whole thing about Islam, is that it actually presents a 100% self serving concept of faith.

Well one would need to establish first that...

1. God is real.
2. God is good.

Before I could answer that first question. However, religion doesn't want you to critically examine those two points. That's why it pushes "faith" above all else...that's why religious faith is self serving.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Intellect tends to bring looks?

I have been in medicine for over 20 years and have been around highly intelligent people (physicians) on a day to day basis.

In my experience, many highly intelligent people are not physically attractive and can be quite clumsy in their demeanor and body language and often, socially inept.

Actually thats a good point, from the perspective of IQ.

But religiously speaking, form FQ (faith quotient) if the heart is at peace and the eyes reflect the soul....

Were dealing with different dimensions of the human intellectual capacity. At least..

Maybe these doctors are being sold short by a 'breeding program' that seeks to put IQ, and potential pay packet above all else?

 

[Unix]

There's critical examination on a detail-level, in my religion:

Well one would need to establish first that...

1. God is real.
2. God is good.

Before I could answer that first question. However, religion doesn't want you to critically examine those two points. That's why it pushes "faith" above all else...that's why religious faith is self serving:

Isnt following God ideally in ones interests, because God is good? The whole thing about Islam, is that it actually presents a 100% self serving concept of faith.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There's critical examination on a detail-level, in my religion:

What's your religion?