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Apparently those were not the same clergy who died in concentration camps in the millions. 14 million died in the Holocaust, about 8 million were Jews.I believe the number of Catholics actively or passively supporting the Nazi party was a bit lower, but still at least 80%ish. There are accounts of priests and pastors putting swastikas beside the cross, requiring Nazi party oaths of loyalty for leadership in the church, the HJ pretty much taking over church youth groups with the churches' blessings, praising Hitler for wanting to deal with the "Jewish vermin," and leading benedictions and prayers in "the names of our Fuhrers: Jesus Christ and Adolph Hitler."
I never said that no clergy died in the Holocaust, but surely you aren't suggesting that the other 6 million who died were all clergy?Thursday said:Apparently those were not the same clergy who died in concentration camps in the millions. 14 million died in the Holocaust, about 8 million were Jews.
The O.P. posted a quote from saint augustine ,If that truly is a quote from him,I've never seen a man more prejudice against Jews,how could you imply any different? Do you think Jews killed Jesus and deserve to suffer?Lifesaver said:Yes, the Jews have been often the victims of many acts of hate.
It is not always the case, though, as the OP tries to make of St. Augustine as a man prejudiced against Jews, when it is not true.
On the Church's position regarding this kind of persecution, it is very relevant to post this Papal Encyclical by Pope Gregory X, issued in 1272, a document which both repeats what has been historically taught since the early years and which sets the standard of what is to be taught in this regard:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm
I noticed the passages you use are all from the Old Testament. Realize, though, that nothing you used comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. If we are Christians and therefore believe in the teachings of Jesus as he walked and talked on earth, then we have to approach the scriptures you cite with a little skepticism. It is a crying shame that Christians for centuries took the scriptures as they saw fit, using them to validate their prejudices and hate.xtxArchxAngelxtx said:.Holy War/Mass Murder Passages in the Hebrew Bible:
Exod. 12: 29-30
Exod. 15: 3-7**
Exod. 32: 26-28***
Exod. 17:14
Num. 25: 1-9**
Num. 31:1-38**
Deut.2:34-35**
Deut. 3:6-7
Deut. 7: 1-5**
Deut. 13:12-18
Deut. 20: 2-4
Deut. 2010-18**
Josh. 5:13-15**
Josh. 6:17-21**
Josh. 8:24-28
Josh. 10: 28-40
1 Sam. 15:3
2 Sam 8
1 kings 18:17-40**
2 Kings 2:23-24**
I don't know if it's from him, but even if it is, it is hardly evidence to judge his views, and much less with the quickness you exposed.Zug-Zwang said:The O.P. posted a quote from saint augustine ,If that truly is a quote from him,I've never seen a man more prejudice against Jews,how could you imply any different? Do you think Jews killed Jesus and deserve to suffer?
You just don't get it do you? The Jews did not kill Yeshuah.I can't even put the blame on the Romans because I know it was me that did it.Lifesaver said:I don't know if it's from him, but even if it is, it is hardly evidence to judge his views, and much less with the quickness you exposed.
From one quote you have concluded that he was the most prejudiced man you have ever seen.
Anti-semitism being a sin, you have accused this holy Doctor of the Church of a great sin, and of endorsing sin.
Whether I "think" Jews killed Christ or not, there is no opinion of mind involved: Christ was killed by Jews and Romans, and the first group was the most interested in His death.
No Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims there...
That is not to say all Jews who lived then were responsible for His death, or that those who live today deserve to be punished for what their ancestors did.
I just hope those Jewish people alive today recognize how evil their ancestors' action was.
Physically the Romans killed Jesus,The Jews were not allowed to kill him,they had no authority and they definatly could kill him by their own laws in reference to Torah.The Jews lost their Authorty in 6ad when Herod Archelaus was deposed by Caesar Augustus wich by the way was prophecy fullfilled when Jacob said in Gen 49 that the sceptor would fall from Judah and Shilo would come,In 6th A.D. Shilo{restgiving} did come when he was presented before he became a man at the age of 13 at Passover.The Roman's were the only ones allowed to kill.Gen 14 states that when Judah drops the scepter it would fall to the Messiah.Drpping the scepter means you are no longer allowed to kill for transgressions of the law and in 6ad Rabbi Rachman is quoted as saying{woe is us,woe is Jerusalem for Judah has dropped the sceptor and Shilo hasn't come.xtxArchxAngelxtx said:physically the Jews killed Jesus... you cannot argue with historical facts.
Spiritually, yes, we put him on the cross.
uh...Zug-Zwang said:Physically the Romans killed Jesus,The Jews were not allowed to kill him,they had no authority and they definatly could kill him by their own laws in reference to Torah.The Jews lost their Authorty in 6ad when Herod Archelaus was deposed by Caesar Augustus wich by the way was prophecy fullfilled when Jacob said in Gen 49 that the sceptor would fall from Judah and Shilo would come,In 6th A.D. Shilo{restgiving} did come when he was presented before he became a man at the age of 13 at Passover.The Roman's were the only ones allowed to kill.Gen 14 states that when Judah drops the scepter it would fall to the Messiah.Drpping the scepter means you are no longer allowed to kill for transgressions of the law and in 6ad Rabbi Rachman is quoted as saying{woe is us,woe is Jerusalem for Judah has dropped the sceptor and Shilo hasn't come.
Historians in more recent years are seriously questioning whether or not the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were ever really united, and if so, how senior a partner the tribe of Judah would have been in such an arrangement. The lands of Israel were always much richer than those of the dry hills of Judah, and Judah never attained the level of development that the Northern Kingdom did. As well, it is very likely that all of the so-called ten tribes were in fact Cannanites from the beginning, and such practices continued in the Northern Kingdom right up until its demise.Zug-Zwang said:These 3 men did the excact same thing for the exact same reason.
Jereboam was of course the first king of the Northern Kingdom known as many names.The house of Israel,The house of Joseph,Ephraim and the Northern kingdom within the divided Kingdom of Israel,The other kingdom is the house of Judah.They also have in common the lacation{Palistine}
Jereboam changed the feasts of Israel to Pagan celebrations like worship of the Sun{Saturnalia,Christmass} and weeping for Tammuz{Ishtar,Easter}
The reason he changed the celebrations was that he knew if his kingdom went to jerusalem 3 times a year that his Kingdom would soon reunite with the house of Judah.King Jereboam built his temple in Shechem what is known today as Nablus the capitol of Palistine.He changed thesabboth's,celebrations and locations to worship.
Later in 722 bc Arabs from Iraq and Egypt moved into the houses of the ten lost tribes and they also were taught these same celebrations.
Then Constantine came and Constantine like Jereboam knew that if Christianity revered Jerusalem and it's Sabbaths and celebrations that the christians also would revert back to the house of Judah having their celebrations in common so Constantine changed Jerusalem to Rome and like Jereboam before him, he chose Ishtar and Christmass.
Then we see Mohammed on the sceen and he also began Islam with Passover,Pentacost and Sukkot but just like Jereboam and Constantine he knew excactly what would happen if he kept the celebrations listed in the Bible.He knew that celebrations of G-d's unite people and that if Arabs had the same celebrations in commin that they would always love Israel and recognize that they are brothers.
All 3 did the same thing,They all began with a brotherhood with Israel.
Jereboam ruled Israelies in the northern kingdom,Then gentiles were called during Yeshuah's day to occuppy the northern kingdom by Spirit and became the found-lost sheep of Israel.
The whole time we see Arabs occuppying the northern kingdom in the flesh,in fact one could say that Islam and Christianity are brothers.Christianity occuppying the House of Israel by the spirit whereas Arabian Islam is there in the flesh.Sounds like the story of Esau and Jacob.
The division of the two kingdoms is very pronounced in at least half the books of the bible.The division lasted for 200 years and they both had kings of their own all those years.The bible states that at the Assyrian attack in 722 they were all carried off and Babylonians placed in their houses but 1 priest was brought back.solomon said:Historians in more recent years are seriously questioning whether or not the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were ever really united, and if so, how senior a partner the tribe of Judah would have been in such an arrangement. The lands of Israel were always much richer than those of the dry hills of Judah, and Judah never attained the level of development that the Northern Kingdom did. As well, it is very likely that all of the so-called ten tribes were in fact Cannanites from the beginning, and such practices continued in the Northern Kingdom right up until its demise.
Rather, some consider the much of the Deuteronomic history of the Bible to have been written in the reign of the King Josiah for the explicit political purpose of uniting the peoples of these two lands once Assyria was out of the picture left open a window of opportunity.
All this is to say that the degree that Jeroboam rejected Jerusalem as a worship site is really open to question. It is just as possible that the Northern kingdom already had worship sites of their even before David and Solomon established themselves in Jerusalem.
In terms of the trio of Mohammed, Constantine, and Jeroboam, perhaps a better anology would be the even greater similarities between Moses, Mohammed, and Constantine. Muslims have always quite correctly pointed out that Mohammed style was very much in the likes of Moses, in that both brought God's law to God's people, and were very much involved in military conquest as the adequate means of doing so. While Constantine was never much of a religious personality, he too was very interested in a common spiritual belief unifying his empire into a cohesive political, military and social force.
Unlike either Moses or Mohammed, though, Constantine is not really responsible for any of the changess that Christianity brought to the Old Covenant religion. Gathering on the 'eight day' of the resurrection was an established practice of many of the early followers of the Way long before Constantine arrived on the scene. Nor did he really change any the laws of the Roman empire in any significant way according to Divine command. He was mainly a political and military character, and he left the decisions of a more spiritual nature in the hands of the Church.
As a final note, Zug-Zwang, with all your talk of Ishtar and Constantine changing the site of worship from Jerusalem to Rome( actually he changed the heqdquarters of his empire from Rome to Constantine), you are painting into a corner occupied by the superstitious and the uninformed.
You said if it wasn't for the Jews it wouldn't have happened but the opposite is more true that if it wasn't for the gentiles it wouldn't have happened whereas many Jews were blinded for the sake of the gentiles because of their blindness and hate the gospel went to the gentiles.xtxArchxAngelxtx said:uh...
Frustration.
OK!
Yes the romans actually killed Jesus but only because the Jews gave pilot no choice cause if pilot did not sentence Jesus then there would be an uprising.
The jews came to the roman government to kill Jesus. So if it wasn't for the jews, it would never of happened. Infact Pilot and another political leader didnt even want to kill Jesus.
Sorry, Doug, gotta call you out on these. History chould never be seen through hindsight; real historical scholarship comes when we put ourselves in the place of the people we are studying, when we consider the climate of time and place. Honest pursuit of history does not come from playing Monday morning quarterback, but from empathy.
As such, I hardly blame the Jews for joining with hte Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia. Considering how the czar used Jewish villages as personal pinatas for centuries, I can see how Jews could seek a solution that promised to rid them from their feudal overlords. In their eyes, anything had to be better than being perpetual Russian serfs. If Vladimir Lenin comes to your downtrodden village promising equality in wealth and an end to class strata, and you and your family had always lived on a subsistence level, I could hardly blame you for fighting to unshackle yourself from the czar's tyranny and to better your life.
Modern Israel has plenty to answer for in terms of how it deals with Palestinians. But I ask you how you view the American saga against terrorism. I don't know your stance, but there are plenty of Americans that want to nuke the whole Middle East, that thought Abu Ghraib should have been ignored, and that we should cut off Arab heads in this country. We in America still have the luxury as of this date to talk like this, the war is 7000 miles away from home. But Israel has to deal with this in their front lawns, and they've had to deal with it for fifty years. There is no religious zeal in how Israelis deal with Palestinians, so I think trying to lump what Jews are doing here and now to the thread topic of the horrific things done in the name of Christ is a stretch at best.
Persecution of early Christian Church?? Unless you are talking about when the Jews chose Barrabas over Jesus, I have no idea where this comes from. Christians and Jews were both persecuted by the Romans, so it you're going to go after anyone, go after Rome. The Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem in 70 anno domini, dispursing the Jews--how in the world could there have ever been any organized Jewish persecution against Christians? And even if there was the teeniest tiniest bit, I would think 2000 years of Christian brutality of the Jews during the Crusades, Black Death, Inquisition, and the Holocaust would more than offset anything Jews might have done in the scant few years between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the temple.
I'd disagree simply because I think my points are valid. And I'd invite you to argue them although the things I'm talking about did happen and I'm simply stating that, I don't think I've exagerated anything.I think your feelings about the Jews are a little overboard.
Maybe because those who defend israel are looked upon as "good" in Gods eyes.
And no, christians have persecuted jews about a 100 times more than Jews persecuting us.
Uh... the people we killed were those who were hostile to us and to the iraqi non combatants. Do some reaserch outside of the media like I did, which is fist hand.
I have heard stories, seen pictures, seen physical evidence of the other way around. Sorry, the iraqi's need us. I should be seeing it first hand here within a year and I will be more than willing to help those people who need us.
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