Looking Forward to Celestial Glory!

[Tawhano]

Swart said:
We have a terminology issue here.

Then why don’t you address the scriptures I have been quoting to you and correct this problem? You said:

Swart said:
To say we believe someone can only have the HG by receiving it by the laying on of hands is not what we believe.

And I posted three verses from your scriptures that say this is exactly how the Holy Spirit is given. You then tell me there is a terminology issue here but fail to address the scriptures to explain what they really mean. I am getting extremely frustrated in trying to get clear answers to clear questions. I suspect that you are not being honest with me.

 

[Swart]

Then why don?t you address the scriptures I have been quoting to you and correct this problem? You said:

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. I may have to look at the thread carefully (and the web based i/f doesn't help here) to see if I am missing out on anything. I've just come back from a cub camp with my kids so I also need some sleep!

And I posted three verses from your scriptures that say this is exactly how the Holy Spirit is given. You then tell me there is a terminology issue here but fail to address the scriptures to explain what they really mean. I am getting extremely frustrated in trying to get clear answers to clear questions. I suspect that you are not being honest with me.

Let me go back and re-read the posts in order.

WRT the scriptures, I generally don't respond to quotes from LDS scriptures from non-LDS. This is because the poster doesn't accept them as the word of God, so we have no common ground to work on. Besides that, what is your point in using LDS scriptures? Are you trying to prove the LDS scriptures false? Or trying to say our practices are at variance with our own scriptures?

In short. I am not here to debate. I am happy to explain what I believe to others and why I believe that. I am also prepared to clear up misunderstandings in what we believe. I also believe I have been VERY clear in my answers, although my answers may not have been what you wanted to read.

CFR on where I have been dishonest.

I just checked the thread. It looks like you are following up here from a post of mine in another part of the thread.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. I may have to look at the thread carefully (and the web based i/f doesn't help here) to see if I am missing out on anything. I've just come back from a cub camp with my kids so I also need some sleep!



Let me go back and re-read the posts in order.

WRT the scriptures, I generally don't respond to quotes from LDS scriptures from non-LDS. This is because the poster doesn't accept them as the word of God, so we have no common ground to work on. Besides that, what is your point in using LDS scriptures? Are you trying to prove the LDS scriptures false? Or trying to say our practices are at variance with our own scriptures?

In short. I am not here to debate. I am happy to explain what I believe to others and why I believe that. I am also prepared to clear up misunderstandings in what we believe. I also believe I have been VERY clear in my answers, although my answers may not have been what you wanted to read.

CFR on where I have been dishonest.

I just checked the thread. It looks like you are following up here from a post of mine in another part of the thread.

Hi Swart, if you don't want to debate topics, perhaps a debate forum is not the best choice for you.

Grace

 

[Tawhano]

Swart said:
WRT the scriptures, I generally don't respond to quotes from LDS scriptures from non-LDS. This is because the poster doesn't accept them as the word of God, so we have no common ground to work on. Besides that, what is your point in using LDS scriptures? Are you trying to prove the LDS scriptures false? Or trying to say our practices are at variance with our own scriptures?

No, I was trying to get some answers for a concern of mine. I am studying the BofM using the same methods I do in studying the Bible. If you refuse to discuss scripture with me then you can be of no further help to me. Thank you for your time.

Swart said:
CFR on where I have been dishonest.

By not addressing the scriptures I posted. When you simply ignore them and sidestep my concerns then it appears that you are hiding something. I’m not out to prove anything, I am asking genuinely asking for help in understanding the scriptures I am reading.

 

[Visage of Glory]

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Once again I have been foiled by the double meaning words. Let me explain to you why I thought the way I did so you can see I am not just repeating anti-mormon accusations.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 2:3)
3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:41)
41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:52)
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

From the above I read it to mean that the gift (not to be confused with the gifts) of the Holy Spirit (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit) was given by the laying on of hands.

I hope I am understanding your concern correctly. If I am not, please tell me. It is true that we believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred by the laying of the hands. You do not have to look further than the Articles of Faith. In the Fourth Article of Faith, it gives the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. The fourth item on the list, an ordinance, is "Laying on the hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

However, it is true that the Holy Ghost can touch those that have been baptized and confirmed by the laying on of hands. I think the terminology problem you have been having with Swart is addressed well in our Bible Dictionary.

"The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost ans as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism and is the convincing witnes that the gospel is true. It gives one one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12-25..." (BD pg 704 Holy Ghost)

I hope this clarifies everything. It is possible to be a "Christian" and gain a testimony in Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost before recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands. I hope this addresses your problem.

 

[gort]

Visage of Glory quote:

I hope this clarifies everything. It is possible to be a "Christian" and gain a testimony in Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost before recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands. I hope this addresses your problem.

Hello,

A couple things.......

Why does the Holy Spirit not allow me to believe in the gospel of the LDS?

Could you use a larger font please.........these old eyes of mine.......


thanx


<><

 

[Ran77]

Hello,

A couple things.......

Why does the Holy Spirit not allow me to believe in the gospel of the LDS?

Could you use a larger font please.........these old eyes of mine.......


thanx


<><

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with a response.

Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit has lead you to the denomination that will do you the most good at this point in your life? Meaning the best place for you now based on your particular needs.

 

[Rescued One]

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with a response.

Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit has lead you to the denomination that will do you the most good at this point in your life? Meaning the best place for you now based on your particular needs.

The Holy Spirit leads the believer into all truth. He will never lead us into a place that teaches false doctrine.

John 14
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[gort]

Ran77 quote:

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with a response.

Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit has lead you to the denomination that will do you the most good at this point in your life? Meaning the best place for you now based on your particular needs.

Hello,

Don't mind at all. The church I attend is non-denominational. We just learn from the Bible. No extras.

The Holy Spirit has convicted me of sin, and told me I was in need of a savior. Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit led me to Jesus. The Holy Spirit gave me the ability to discern.

Jesus saves.


<><

 

[chaindog]

Garbage! Total rotting garbage! First, you know diddly about Constantine. Have you ever read anything written by the historians Lactantius or Eusebius, who lived at the time of Constantine? Have you ever read any histories written within 1-2 generations of Constantine? No, you have not! You have been reading and listening to the lies and garbage of uninformed revisionists.

How do you know when the so-called gospel of Thomas was written? And, how do you know it is not the psychotic ramblings of some mentally deficient mad man? Just because some writings were found buried in the sand does not make them authentic. Even the LDS claim their primary scriptures were found buried in the ground after hundreds of years.

Evidently your god is weak and powerless, he can’t even preserve his word. It appears all your god could do was bury one copy of Thomas in the sand for almost 2000 years. My God said in Isaiah 55:11

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.​

My God said He would build His church on The Rock and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. According to what you are trying to sell, the gates of hell prevailed against your god for 2000 years.

A lot of people around here are just like the Greek philosophers Paul preached to, they spend their time wanting to hear some new thing.

Der Alter,

[Edited by a moderator]

I don't know if you got a chance to see it before it was killed, but I did react with a similar attitude to the one that you show in this post and I was wrong to do so. [Edited by a moderator]

I agree with your assesment of when The Gospel of Thomas was written... 200 AD at the latest, probably earlier but not earlier than 100 AD. However, from my understanding, none of the Gospels were written as eye-witness accounts of Jesus's life. Rather all were written from a presumed source document commonly refered to as "Q". Authors had their different takes on Jesus, John being the most radical in that he was the only one to call Jesus God. This is not because of direct experience but because of their opinions, divinely inspired or not, of who Jesus Christ was.

I have not read the ancient historians account of Constantine as you so politely suggested I hadn't. However, I seriously doubt that any reasonable person can make the argument that Constantine was Christian man in the sense of following Christ's teachings. Certainly he did not turn the other cheek in his life time. Also, I doubt that a reasonable person could say that Constantine did not oversee the persecution of heretics and the destruction of heretical writings. If Gnostics were prevailed over by the gates of hell as you suggest, it was because they followed Jesus's example of turning the other cheek instead of destroying their enemies. You must be honest here and admit that until recent years, the catholic Church (I mean to say orthodox Christianity in general) was responsible for a good number of "holy wars". Certainly this doesn't lessen the value of the faith... but the politcal institutions have been far from successful in following the example laid down by Jesus Christ.

Your shot at "my God" shows a gross misunderstanding of Gnostic ideas. What you fail to realize is that "your God" is merely an attempt to understand "my God". Gnostic myth, much like the Bible, is not to be taken literally. If you view the demiurge as a human created mental construct then you might understand it a little better. For example, if you and I were in a room together and you looked at me, you would not actually see me... or hear me or sense me using any of the five senses. What you see is merely light reflected on your retina, you hear vibrations in the air, etc. Your mental construct of me is based on your own imperfect understanding, inflicted by the imperfection intrinsic to human vision, human touch, human hearing, etc. Continuing this metaphore, if I were God... what you percieve to be me would be the Demiurge. This is not to say that I believe that a perfect and loving god could create a world such as this. I do not. To me, the demiurge, whatever it is (I don't pretend to know), is what created "reality". "Reality" is a just separation from God. God is not to be understood by the mind. The evils of this world are so foul, I seriously doubt that God could be directly responsible for them.

The God that Moses worshipped has a very different idea of right and wrong than Jesus. Eye for and eye vs. Turn the other cheek. Clearly, the God of the OT is not the same as Jesus Christ's Father. It is the difference between a vengeful God and a loving God. I personally believe that some of the OT was inspired by God and some by this demiurge. No man sees God in the same way as another man because every man sees God with is own prejudices... or in the fundamentalist's case other men's prejudices.

Chaindog

 

[Visage of Glory]

Why does the Holy Spirit not allow me to believe in the gospel of the LDS?

Honestly, I don't know. There are a number of possibilities, but I will not mention them unless I offend you. I am not capable of understanding to the Holy Ghost perfectly. His motives are not made clear to me all of the time. I can only say what I feel is right.

 

[gort]

Hello, Visage,

If you feel uncomfortable about it, then don't.

But, I would like you to ponder this scripture......

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


<><

 

[Visage of Glory]

What I was trying to say, is that I do not feel right telling you what you felt was not the Holy Ghost. I do not understand why the Holy Ghost seems to tell some people one thing, and a different person another. I do not have the authority to tell you what you experience was not the Holy Ghost, and I would appreciate it if you would give me the same curtesy. The Holy Ghost seems to beyond, at least my, capabilities of understanding. I can speculate, but I do not know everything about him.

If you can give concrete proof that what you and others felt was the Holy Ghost and that what I and other LDS members feel is something else, I will listen carefully. However, I do not want an arguement about how the Holy Ghost confirmed this to you nor do I want to use the same arguement myself. God knows everything, but, we as mortals, do not. I do not mean to avoid the issue, and if that is how you percieve me, then I tell you that is not my purpose. I just simply do not understand how we can feel the Holy Ghost telling the LDS one thing, and the Christians another thing. I have faith that the Holy Ghost is real, but his eternal truths are not accessible to me yet. I have my ideas, but I do not feel good about sharing them because they are just speculation.

 

[Swart]

What I was trying to say, is that I do not feel right telling you what you felt was not the Holy Ghost. I do not understand why the Holy Ghost seems to tell some people one thing, and a different person another. I do not have the authority to tell you what you experience was not the Holy Ghost, and I would appreciate it if you would give me the same curtesy. The Holy Ghost seems to beyond, at least my, capabilities of understanding. I can speculate, but I do not know everything about him.

If you can give concrete proof that what you and others felt was the Holy Ghost and that what I and other LDS members feel is something else, I will listen carefully. However, I do not want an arguement about how the Holy Ghost confirmed this to you nor do I want to use the same arguement myself. God knows everything, but, we as mortals, do not. I do not mean to avoid the issue, and if that is how you percieve me, then I tell you that is not my purpose. I just simply do not understand how we can feel the Holy Ghost telling the LDS one thing, and the Christians another thing. I have faith that the Holy Ghost is real, but his eternal truths are not accessible to me yet. I have my ideas, but I do not feel good about sharing them because they are just speculation.

This is the whole point about the HG. You don't have to take anyone else's word for it. We have to TRUST the HG will give people the right answer FOR THAT PERSON.

I remember teaching a very intelligent man the 1st discussion. He was very active in the church he attended so I made it a point to ask him what he thought he would have to do if he received an affirmative answer about the BoM. He came staright out and said it "I will have to join your church".

After the discussion was over, he showed us some photos of his service work he had and was engaged in with his church including schools and hospitals in third world countries he had been instrumental in building. It suddenly dawned on me that he was already one of God's people and he had been placed where he could be most effective. There was no way that HF was going to remove him from where he was, just so he could be in the church.

Remember also that the HG only gives YES answers, or no answers at all. So the best someone can say is that they haven't received an answer at all. In this way, the HG avoids the issue of conflicting statements.

 

[gort]

Visage quote:

What I was trying to say, is that I do not feel right telling you what you felt was not the Holy Ghost. I do not understand why the Holy Ghost seems to tell some people one thing, and a different person another. I do not have the authority to tell you what you experience was not the Holy Ghost, and I would appreciate it if you would give me the same curtesy. The Holy Ghost seems to beyond, at least my, capabilities of understanding. I can speculate, but I do not know everything about him.

As I said, if you feel uncomfortable about it, then you should'nt.

I don't feel right about getting into a wiz match regarding the Holy Spirit either. My original question was an honest one.

I just simply do not understand how we can feel the Holy Ghost telling the LDS one thing, and the Christians another thing.

That remark is why I asked the question in the first place. How does the Holy Spirit tell christians one thing, and the LDS another. In this regards I will apply this only to the saving work of Christ Jesus on the Cross.
The LDS have a different version than what I have been given. Yours is much more complicated than mine, what with different worlds and all. And only those who are LDS will see the face of God.

The Jesus I know paid my debt of sin, therefore, I will see the Face of God. Just because I believe, and have faith.

Thanx for your honest answers.

Swart quote:

Remember also that the HG only gives YES answers, or no answers at all. So the best someone can say is that they haven't received an answer at all. In this way, the HG avoids the issue of conflicting statements

.

No offense Swart, but the HS gives much much much more than that.



<><

 

[Ran77]

If you are referring to your disagreement with me and your accusations on "Whose eyes are made to see by God?" thread, say so. I perceive that you enjoy singling me out for criticism. I'm sorry. Ces't la vie.

I am not specifically referring to the "Whose eyes..." thread. I agree with your statement about outward appearance. I am just curious if this is a standard that you hold yourself to?

I'm sorry that you feel that I am singling you out. I am not.

 

[Ran77]

I would like to compliment you before I delve into the topic. This post addresses a topic and does not include any personal comments. My sincere desire is that we can continue to discuss our views with each other in this manner.

The Holy Spirit leads the believer into all truth. He will never lead us into a place that teaches false doctrine.

John 14
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I agree that the Holy Spirit leads the believer to the truth (or however you feel it is best stated).

I know that I am a believer that diligently seeks the truth. I am willing to accept that you fall into this category too.

Is it possible that both of us are believers?

 

[Rescued One]

Is it possible that both of us are believers?

Sure, we believe lots of things, but we don't share the same faith. It isn't possible to say that we do.

 

[Swart]

No offense Swart, but the HS gives much much much more than that.

Firstly, it's difficult to respond always to off-topic quoting. I almost missed your quotation of me.

Secondly. You're right! Please excuse my "binary thinking".Let me qualify that by saying, the Holy Ghost gives "positive" answers, not negative ones. It's correct to ask if something is good, incorrect to ask if something is bad.

Of course, the HG may influence us in all sorts of ways, including giving us impressions, thoughts, feelings. In more extreme circumstances one may actually hear a clear voice, dream dreams, be given visions etc. I remember once pondering a scripture and trying to understand it, when all of a sudden for a brief moment I was there! I could see the people, hear their voices, smell the smells etc. In that brief moment I gained more knowledge than a year of study would have given me!

In general though, I believe God wants us to study things out in our mind and draw our own conclusions before approaching him in prayer with our question. Our plan ready for his approval or rejection. LDS scripture teaches that if the thing we approach him with is incorrect he will remove it from our minds so that we forget what it was we had approached him with.

 

[Swart]

No, I was trying to get some answers for a concern of mine. I am studying the BofM using the same methods I do in studying the Bible. If you refuse to discuss scripture with me then you can be of no further help to me. Thank you for your time.

By not addressing the scriptures I posted. When you simply ignore them and sidestep my concerns then it appears that you are hiding something. I?m not out to prove anything, I am asking genuinely asking for help in understanding the scriptures I am reading.

I apologise. I am not trying to hide anything. Nor am I trying to be deceptive. In a forum such as this it is not uncommon for some to pick up on the minituae of everything that is written by an LDS poster. So I tend to be cautious when someone insists I "fine-tune" my beliefs, particularly when it appears they are well versed in LDS scripture, it can smell like a trap.

Personally I think it is clear there is a distinction between the Gift of the HG and the HG itself. In addition, there are what is termed Spiritual Gifts or "Gifts of the Spirit".

The scriptures you are referring to clearly the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" is given by the laying on of hands by someone with the authourity to do so. This is the Baptism of Fire. The "Gift" of the HG, is twofold. Firstly, the HG becomes your constant companion, secondly, you are entitled to at least one spiritual gift from the HG. These gifts need to be exercised with prudence and judgement because they CAN be abused.

The HG itself, however, is free to work its various ways. To reflect this, it is given many names such as "The comforter" and "The spirit of truth".

In Acts 10:38-48 we read how some received the Gift of the HG without having hands laid upon them. The Apostles were amazed and Peter said "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

So we can see the HG can work with and influence those who have not received it by the laying on of hands. The HG is above any law.

I hope I haven't sounded evasive in this post.