Looking for open debate on apologetics

[Hentenza]

OK, you don't see the appeal in a life that eventually ends. I do. Just like I can enjoy a movie that eventually ends, I can enjoy a life that eventually ends.

I'm not big on movies so my analogy would go more along the line of a good book series. I am filled with anticipation until the next one comes out.

If you are without hope if life ends at death, do you still allow yourself to be open to the evidence that mental processes end at death?

Moot point since I don't believe that our mental processes end at death. Sure, you could show me evidence of the physical death and how all physical mental activity ceases but then I would have to tell you that we have a soul which continues. Of course, you would then won't believe it because science has not been able to prove it in a test tube. lol

Non-temporal means eternal, and I thought that was what I was discussing. If you have an infinite number of hours to live, and only a finite number of conversations you could possibly have, don't you eventually come to the point where you have had every possible conversation? Then what would you do? Would you repeat every possible conversation again (and again, and again)?

How do you know that conversations are finite? Have you heard them all?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I was a Christian for the first 22 years of my life and even attended seminary for one year. I then became disillusioned with Christianity and became first an agnostic and then a full blown atheist. I was happy being an atheist.

So you became an atheist after being a Christian for 22 years? I thought you had just said that was impossible.

Which arguments convinced you to become an atheist? Why do you no longer think those arguments are valid?

 

[Hentenza]

Interesting. So when I came to Christ as a lost sinner, and accepted him as my personal savior, he didn't really save me?

And all that time I spent in what I understood as a personal relationship to Christ was not real? Are you saying it only felt like Jesus was in my heart, that he wasn't really there? If my Christian walk was not real, even though it felt so real to me at the time, how can anybody know that their Christian walk is real?

We can go real deep here but then the truth only lies between you and Jesus. I can only steer you to the truth of scripture.

 

[Hentenza]

So you became an atheist after being a Christian for 22 years? I thought you had just said that was impossible.

Being born again is not the same as one proclaiming to be a Christian. I guess I was a tare then.

Which arguments convinced you to become an atheist? Why do you no longer think those arguments are valid?

No arguments convinced me of either. My deconversion (if you can even call it that) was due to my own immaturity and pride. My returning to God was of no doing of my own.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I'm not big on movies so my analogy would go more along the line of a good book series. I am filled with anticipation until the next one comes out.

Every good book series eventually ends. It seems to me that one can still enjoy the book series--and life--even knowing it will eventually end.

Moot point since I don't believe that our mental processes end at death. Sure, you could show me evidence of the physical death and how all physical mental activity ceases but then I would have to tell you that we have a soul which continues.

OK, but if mental activity ceases at death, what can it mean to say that the soul continues?

How do you know that conversations are finite? Have you heard them all?

No, of course not.

If there are a million words you can use, and all conversations are less than a million words long, then the number of possible conversations are less than a million to the millionth power.

So if you have at least one converstation per year in heaven, in a million to the power 1,000,000 years you will have had all possible conversations. But as the song says, you will then have no less days then when you first begun. Then what do you do? Repeat all those conversations again?

 

[doubtingmerle]

No arguments convinced me of either. My deconversion (if you can even call it that) was due to my own immaturity and pride. My returning to God was of no doing of my own.

I see. You "deconverted" due to immaturity, not because of the strength of any argument? I deconverted because of the perceived strengths of the arguments I was hearing. So it appears our deconversions were very different.

 

[Hentenza]

Every good book series eventually ends. It seems to me that one can still enjoy the book series--and life--even knowing it will eventually end.

Sure, just as you can still enjoy your life here, however, my book series never ends.

OK, but if mental activity ceases at death, what can it mean to say that the soul continues?

It means that who you are continues and does not die.

No, of course not.

If there are a million words you can use, and all conversations are less than a million words long, then the number of possible conversations are less than a million to the millionth power.

So if you have at least one converstation per year in heaven, in a million to the power 1,000,000 years you will have had all possible conversations. But as the song says, you will then have no less days then when you first begun. Then what do you do? Repeat all those conversations again?

How do you know that there won't be an infinite amount of words then? You continue to think in a linear temporal fashion so all for you ends. Nothing ends in eternity. But hey, this is merely a philosophical discussion.

 

[Hentenza]

I see. You "deconverted" due to immaturity, not because of the strength of any argument? I deconverted because of the perceived strengths of the arguments I was hearing. So it appears our deconversions were very different.

Not really. I didn't know better and you just think you know better.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why would Christians want to "debate" with unbelievers?

I for one would like to

 

[doubtingmerle]

Not really. I didn't know better and you just think you know better.

Oh, I see, so I just think the arguments that deconverted me were good, but you know they were not good?

How can you be so sure that those arguments were not good if you don't know which arguments I heard? Don't you first need to ask me what arguments I am referring to, before you tell me those arguments were not good?

 

[Hentenza]

I for one would like to

Aren't you still a member at carm Steve?

 

[Hentenza]

Oh, I see, so I just think the arguments that deconverted me were good, but you know they were not good?

How can you be so sure that those arguments were not good if you don't know which arguments I heard? Don't you first need to ask me what arguments I am referring to, before you tell me those arguments were not good?

I have no intentions of asking you what they are.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Aren't you still a member at carm Steve?

Yepperz.
I post mainly on the Preterist board tho [big surprise huh? ]

 

[doubtingmerle]

Sure, just as you can still enjoy your life here, however, my book series never ends.

OK, so I can enjoy my life here, even if I know it will eventually end?

Yes, I agree.

It means that who you are continues and does not die.

How can "who you are" continue after death if there is no brain left? All our memories are stored in our brains. How could you continue to be "who you are" if your brain and all its memories are gone?

How do you know that there won't be an infinite amount of words then?

Oh, there may be an infinite number of words in our memory in heaven? How could we possibly keep track of the definitions of an infinite number of words while in heaven? How can we know the definition of any word after the left side of our brain has rotted in the grave?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I have no intentions of asking you what they are.

I see, you have no intention to ask me what arguments I heard that caused my deconversion?

They might have been good arguments.

 

[Hentenza]

How can "who you are" continue after death if there is no brain left? All our memories are stored in our brains. How could you continue to be "who you are" if your brain and all its memories are gone?



Oh, there may be an infinite number of words in our memory in heaven? How could we possibly keep track of the definitions of an infinite number of words while in heaven? How can we know the definition of any word after the left side of our brain has rotted in the grave?

All is possible with God. It's been nice talking with you. I pray that you find the answers that you seek.

 

[doubtingmerle]

All is possible with God. It's been nice talking with you. I pray that you find the answers that you seek.

If all things are possible, then why do you infer that it is not possible for people who believe that death ends all to have hope? If all things are possible, perhaps it is possible to believe we are mortals, and yet find hope in life.

And if you can have hope and I can have hope, then what is wrong with seeking a place where folks like us can discuss our differing hopes?

 

[razeontherock]

I'll be happy to give you an answer for the hope that I have but I won't debate it with you.

Correct In fact, a person wanting to debate such a thing is truly, truly missing the point of basic human decency and respect. Maybe we should re-name it secular inhumanism?

 

[razeontherock]

the answers I hear seem so feeble in comparison with what I have learned in recent years. I was looking for a place to compare what I have learned with the answers that are commonly given by Christians.

You can do that, right here, in this very sub-forum. It is the best place on CF for it, IMHO. That doesn't equal a debate though. Asking honest questions is well within our parameters here, and part of honest questioning is follow up questions that can do exactly what you describe here. With passion even.

The real line of demarcation is, are you asking questions, or creating a platform to "preach your own gospel?" I trust you can understand one is within our purposes here, while the other is not. Also, what makes this best place for it is other non-believers aren't supposed to post. This prevents your questions from getting splintered, and our responses from getting too long, off topic and time consuming.

Oh good, so you agree that the unbeliever may have something worthwhile to say?

So then it might be worthwhile to have a dialog, with the Christian listening to the worthwhile things that the unbeliever says, and vice versa?

You bet. To truly question, this is part of the process. And also to truly answer. Just observe the above line of demarcation, that's all.

 

[razeontherock]

What is wrong with a hope that leads to a fulfilling life here and now, and then one day ends? That sounds appealing to me.

You have every right to be interested in that, but you cannot compare it to the merits of Christianity as you say you want to. It's apples to oranges. This type of comparison any Christian should concede to you, as the Bible clearly teaches.

If existence went on forever, would our lives not eventually fall into a repetitious rut?

You're answering your own objections. You have nothing valid to say about Christianity, because your observations aren't about God Himself. Your question here reveals that much. This was apparently the part that was missing from your Christianity, which is why you fell away. W/o Him, it just doesn't work. And with Him, your boredom scenario has no place.