Looking for a dispensational interpretation

[mathetas]

I was reading Ephesians 2, and wondered how anyone can read verse 11 and onward, and still hold to a dispensational view.

11.)Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," {which is} performed in the flesh by human hands--

My Statement: Paul makes it very clear that he is talking about Gentiles, and they are called uncircumcision (they are not part of the old covenant). They are being called this by
Jews (evidently those proud of their circumcision).

12.) [remember] that you were at that time separate
from Christ, excluded from the common wealth of Israel,
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope
and without God in the world.

My statement: Paul is now making it clear that the Gentiles were separate from
the common wealth and covenant promises who had no hope
from God.

13.) But now in Christ Jesus you who were formerly were
far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

My statement: Christ's blood (the blood of the JEWISH Messiah) has brought
the Gentiles near.

14.) For he himself is our peace who made both [groups into]
one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

My statement: Now, Paul is explicit that he did not mean near as in very close
but really as one. Both groups, according to Paul are made one. If the fact
that "groups into" is not literally in the Greek, then take it out: "...made
both one"
Verse fifteen is even stronger, but I did not put it in because of space.
I am sure a dispensationalist will correct me on my short exegesis. Look
forward to discussion.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I was reading Ephesians 2, and wondered how anyone can read verse 11 and onward, and still hold to a dispensational view.

11.)Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," {which is} performed in the flesh by human hands--

My Statement: Paul makes it very clear that he is talking about Gentiles, and they are called uncircumcision (they are not part of the old covenant). They are being called this by
Jews (evidently those proud of their circumcision).

12.) [remember] that you were at that time separate
from Christ, excluded from the common wealth of Israel,
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope
and without God in the world.

My statement: Paul is now making it clear that the Gentiles were separate from
the common wealth and covenant promises who had no hope
from God.

13.) But now in Christ Jesus you who were formerly were
far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

My statement: Christ's blood (the blood of the JEWISH Messiah) has brought
the Gentiles near.

14.) For he himself is our peace who made both [groups into]
one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

My statement: Now, Paul is explicit that he did not mean near as in very close
but really as one. Both groups, according to Paul are made one. If the fact
that "groups into" is not literally in the Greek, then take it out: "...made
both one"
Verse fifteen is even stronger, but I did not put it in because of space.
I am sure a dispensationalist will correct me on my short exegesis. Look
forward to discussion.

What of Israel that has not yet accepted Christ?

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile....but Israel is not yet in Christ. However, we read in Romans 11 that they will be.

 

[mathetas]

What of Israel that has not yet accepted Christ?

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile....but Israel is not yet in Christ.

I would like to stick to the Ephesians passage, but if you start a thread on Romans 11, I will respond.

In regards to Israel not being in Christ, Paul states that Christ had made both groups, Israel and Gentiles, one. If both groups are made one, then Paul believes Israel is in Christ (notice they are made one in Christ's blood). How many actual Jewish people are not in Christ is not dealt with here, but if they are not in Christ, they have not been made one in Christ's blood, and are not true Israel.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I would like to stick to the Ephesians passage, but if you start a thread on Romans 11, I will respond.

In regards to Israel not being in Christ, Paul states that Christ had made both groups, Israel and Gentiles, one. If both groups are made one, then Paul believes Israel is in Christ (notice they are made one in Christ's blood). How many actual Jewish people are not in Christ is not dealt with here, but if they are not in Christ, they have not been made one in Christ's blood, and are not true Israel.

So those who are of Israel yet don't beleive in Christ are "in Christ"? I dont think so.

Paul is simply saying that because of Christ and what he has done, Gentiles are now able to be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ" like Jews that have come to Christ have done. Before Christs death and resurrection, a person had to convert to Judaism. That meant that Gentiles were basically cutoff.
ephesians 2 doesn't conflict with Classic Dispensationalism at all.

 

[mathetas]

So those who are of Israel yet don't beleive in Christ are "in Christ"? I dont think so.

Paul is simply saying that because of Christ and what he has done, Gentiles are now able to be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ" like Jews that have come to Christ have done. Before Christs death and resurrection, a person had to convert to Judaism. That meant that Gentiles were basically cutoff.
ephesians 2 doesn't conflict with Classic Dispensationalism at all.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Israel and the Gentiles (both groups) are made one in the blood of Christ. If they are made one in the blood of Christ then the Israel referred to here is in Christ.

 

[Dispy]

oops

 

[Dispy]

I was reading Ephesians 2, and wondered how anyone can read verse 11 and onward, and still hold to a dispensational view.

11.)Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," {which is} performed in the flesh by human hands--

My Statement: Paul makes it very clear that he is talking about Gentiles, and they are called uncircumcision (they are not part of the old covenant). They are being called this by
Jews (evidently those proud of their circumcision).

12.) [remember] that you were at that time separate
from Christ, excluded from the common wealth of Israel,
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope
and without God in the world.

My statement: Paul is now making it clear that the Gentiles were separate from
the common wealth and covenant promises who had no hope
from God.

13.) But now in Christ Jesus you who were formerly were
far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

My statement: Christ's blood (the blood of the JEWISH Messiah) has brought
the Gentiles near.

14.) For he himself is our peace who made both [groups into]
one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

My statement: Now, Paul is explicit that he did not mean near as in very close
but really as one. Both groups, according to Paul are made one. If the fact
that "groups into" is not literally in the Greek, then take it out: "...made
both one"
Verse fifteen is even stronger, but I did not put it in because of space.
I am sure a dispensationalist will correct me on my short exegesis. Look
forward to discussion.

To understand Ephesians 2 in its proper context, we must go back and consider the past history of the Gentiles and Israel. (This will be a "thumbnail sketch.)

Way back in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel, God set the Gentiles aside because of their sinfulness, and God, through Abram, took out a people unto himself through whom He would make His future dealings. Therefore, if one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses in order to receive Israel's blessings. There was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. The Gentile was considered by the Jews to be heathen/unclean/ dogs. Israel was to be a light until the Gentiles, and according to God Promise to Abram in Genesis 12, the families (nations) of the earth were to be blessed through his physical seed - Israel. Israel was to serve God, and then God would bless them. When the Gentiles would see the many blessings that God gave them, then the Gentiles were to come to them to seek their God. That is how the program was supposed to work.

When Jesus came upon the earth, He came "...to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.15:24). Also, Jesus commanded His disciples to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritians enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.10:5-6). The purpose of His coming was "...to confirm (fulfill) the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers" (Romans 15:8). These promises included an everlasting kingdom to be established upon the earth, and One that would sit upon that throne forever.

We know from the gospels that Israel that the Jews, as a nation rejected their King and His Kingdom. Therefore, there was no way that the promises made to Israel could be fulfilled. Therefore, God set the nation of Israel aside (temporarily); just as He did the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel. The Jew and Gentile are now in the same set aside boat. They are now on equal footing and without distinction. Paul tells of this in Romans 11:7-12. Peter was show this back in Acts 10 when God told him that he could no longer consider the Gentile "unclean."

Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them alll (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." How was this to be accomplished? It is Ephesians 2:11-14 that tells us. Paul is speaking to believers. They have come to know Christ through Paul preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," not "the gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus and the 12 preached.

Eph.2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh (heathen/unclean/dogs and outside the gate), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (Jews) in the flesh made with hands.
12 That at that time, ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commenwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenatnts of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. (Because the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel.)
13 But NOW (never before) in Christ Jesus ye (Gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by (because of) the blood of Christ.
14 For he (Jesus) is our peace, who had made (created) both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (believing Jew and Gentiles) one new man (a new creation/The Body of Christ) so making peace.
16 And that he might reconcile both (believing Jew and Gentiles) unto God in one body (The Body of Christ) by (through/because of) the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were far off (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him (Jesus) we both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Please explain to me WHY you don't feel that I cannot hold my dispensational views. As a member of The Body of Christ, I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. I am a NEW CREATION in Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[mathetas]

There was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile.

If that wall is no longer there (like Ephesians 2 says) then the Gentiles are a part of Israel, and the dispensational claim that there is a distinction between the church and Israel is invalid.

When Jesus came upon the earth, He came "...to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.15:24). Also, Jesus commanded His disciples to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritians enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.10:5-6). The purpose of His coming was "...to confirm (fulfill) the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers" (Romans 15:8). These promises included an everlasting kingdom to be established upon the earth, and One that would sit upon that throne forever.

So then, is Christ not the savior of the Gentiles as well? Yes Christ came to the Jews, so what is the hope of the gentile if he only came for the Jews? It is that we have been made "one in Christ's body" (2:13). If there is the distinction between the Gospel of the Apostles and Jeusus's Gospel, then why are Gentiles saved through Christ. Or is everything Christ did for Israel, except the one act of dying on the cross?

The Jew and Gentile are now in the same set aside boat. They are now on equal footing and without distinction. Paul tells of this in Romans 11:7-12. Peter was show this back in Acts 10 when God told him that he could no longer consider the Gentile "unclean."

The language of Ephesians is not of equal footing, but of being made "one man."

Please explain to me WHY you don't feel that I cannot hold my dispensational views. As a member of The Body of Christ, I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. I am a NEW CREATION in Christ.

I believe Ephesians denies you the dispensationalist view because it clearly states that Israel and Gentiles are made "one man."

Eph.2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh (heathen/unclean/dogs and outside the gate), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (Jews) in the flesh made with hands.
12 That at that time, ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commenwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenatnts of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. (Because the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel.)

what were the Gentiles strangers from? No, they are strangers from the common wealth of Israel and the covenant.

13 But NOW (never before) in Christ Jesus ye (Gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by (because of) the blood of Christ.

Brought near to the common wealth and the covenant.

14 For he (Jesus) is our peace, who had made(created) both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.

The wall of partrition between the common wealth and the covenant.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace.
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body (The Body of Christ) by (through/because of) the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were far off (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him (Jesus) we both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Since Peace was preached to both Jews and Gentiles throught the same median, how do you say that the Jews are not responsible to the message preached? By not responsible, I mean the notion that "well, if they do not respond now to the Gospel, its okay because God's going to give them a second shot through a second median.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Israel and the Gentiles (both groups) are made one in the blood of Christ. If they are made one in the blood of Christ then the Israel referred to here is in Christ.

As I already wrote, Paul is explaining how Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians are one - the Church (hyperdisp.s disagree some with this). Howver, we are not joined to national Israel, who is yet to come to Christ.
Read the whole letter, then the whole passge before you try to interpret a few verses.

 

[heymikey80]

What of Israel that has not yet accepted Christ?

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile....but Israel is not yet in Christ. However, we read in Romans 11 that they will be.

I think there's the point that Paul made that he's an Israelite, so God hasn't rejected His people in any pervasive sense. Yet His people in some sense (ethnic, national) haven't followed Christ.

So to me this is how Jew and Gentile become one in Christ in Ephesians 2.

However, Ephesians 2 is really particular, talking about being fellow-citizens with the saints, of the household of God. I'm also interested in what Dispensationalists do with that. Paul points out Gentiles' former separation from the Jewish commonwealth, and then says in Christ they've drawn near. Is this just "near -- but still not" in dispensationalism?

 

[Dispy]

Way back in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel, God set the Gentiles aside because of their sinfulness, and God, through Abram, took out a people unto himself through whom He would make His future dealings. Therefore, if one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses in order to receive Israel's blessings. There was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. The Gentile was considered by the Jews to be heathen/unclean/ dogs. Israel was to be a light until the Gentiles, and according to God Promise to Abram in Genesis 12, the families (nations) of the earth were to be blessed through his physical seed - Israel. Israel was to serve God, and then God would bless them. When the Gentiles would see the many blessings that God gave them, then the Gentiles were to come to them to seek their God. That is how the program was supposed to work.

If that wall is no longer there (like Ephesians 2 says) then the Gentiles are a part of Israel, and the dispensational claim that there is a distinction between the church and Israel is invalid.

When the "wall of seperation" was broken down, it means there is no longer any distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. They are looked upon by God as equal. God is no longer dealing with the children of Israel as His chosen people.

When Jesus came upon the earth, He came "...to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.15:24). Also, Jesus commanded His disciples to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritians enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.10:5-6). The purpose of His coming was "...to confirm (fulfill) the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers" (Romans 15:8). These promises included an everlasting kingdom to be established upon the earth, and One that would sit upon that throne forever.

So then, is Christ not the savior of the Gentiles as well? Yes Christ came to the Jews, so what is the hope of the gentile if he only came for the Jews? It is that we have been made "one in Christ's body" (2:13). If there is the distinction between the Gospel of the Apostles and Jeusus's Gospel, then why are Gentiles saved through Christ. Or is everything Christ did for Israel, except the one act of dying on the cross?

]

Christ was the hope of the Gentiles, as well as the children of Israel. Christ never turned any Gentile away that sought after Him. The Samaritan women at the well, the Syrophenician women, and the Etheopian Ennuch are some examples. In John 4:22 Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews."

Paul says in Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

Israel was to be the light unto the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light unto the Gentiles.

49:6 "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

60:3 "And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and the kings to ther brightness of thy rising."

The promise to Abram back in Genesis 12:1-3 is that through his physical seed (Israel), all the families (nations of the earth would be blessed.) Also, God told Moses in Exodus 19:3-7 to tell the children of Israel that if they would deep his commandments, they they would become a holy nation of priests. To be a priest of Israel, one had to go through a ceremonial washing (baptism.)

John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus, came preaching repent and be baptized for the remission. John was preparing the nation of Israel to be that nation of priest through which the nations of the world be blessed.

Jesus came to Israel to establish His Kingdom, and be The Light to the Gentiles. It is through the holy nation of priest (Israel) that was to bless the Gentile world. However we can see from the Gospels, and the 1st 7 chapters of Acts, that Israel as a nation rejected their King and His Kingdom. Therefore, with the rejection of their King and His Kingdom, there is no way that the promise made to Israel could be fulfilled at this time. It will be fulfilled, but at a future time.[/b]

With that rejection, God interrupted the prophetic program and raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of grace. No longer is "the gospel of the kingdom" to be preached. Paul was commissioned to preached "the gospel of the grace of God," according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25).

The Jew and Gentile are now in the same set aside boat. They are now on equal footing and without distinction. Paul tells of this in Romans 11:7-12. Peter was show this back in Acts 10 when God told him that he could no longer consider the Gentile "unclean."

The language of Ephesians is not of equal footing, but of being made "one man."

Well, being there is no longer any distinction between the Jew and Gentile, they are on equal footing. Believing Jew and Gentiles are now a one new man (new creation) in Christ Jesus. They are on equal footing alright.

Please explain to me WHY you don't feel that I cannot hold my dispensational views. As a member of The Body of Christ, I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. I am a NEW CREATION in Christ.

I believe Ephesians denies you the dispensationalist view because it clearly states that Israel and Gentiles are made "one man."

Israel, as a nation is set aside. The set aside children of Israel are on the same (equal) footing as the set aside Gentiles. There is no longer any distinction between them. From these two believing set aside peoples God made a new creation. They are not part of the nation of Israel. They are members of an entirely new organism known as "The Body of Christ." Members of The Body of Christ are not spiritual Jew, as you try to make them out to be.

Eph.2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh (heathen/unclean/dogs and outside the gate), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (Jews) in the flesh made with hands.
12 That at that time, ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commenwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenatnts of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. (Because the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel.)

what were the Gentiles strangers from? No, they are strangers from the common wealth of Israel and the covenant.

13 But NOW (never before) in Christ Jesus ye (Gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by (because of) the blood of Christ.

Brought near to the common wealth and the covenant.

No, They both recieve their salvation/justification through the blood of Christ. Being the commonwealth of Israel is in a set aside condition, so are their covenants.


14 For he (Jesus) is our peace, who had made(created) both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.

The wall of partrition between the common wealth and the covenant.

That statement doesn't even make sense to me.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace.
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body (The Body of Christ) by (through/because of) the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were far off (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him (Jesus) we both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Since Peace was preached to both Jews and Gentiles throught the same median, how do you say that the Jews are not responsible to the message preached? By not responsible, I mean the notion that "well, if they do not respond now to the Gospel, its okay because God's going to give them a second shot through a second median.

Don't recall saying that the Jews are not responsible to the message preached. Again, I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

God Bless.

 

[heymikey80]

I would like to stick to the Ephesians passage, but if you start a thread on Romans 11, I will respond.

In regards to Israel not being in Christ, Paul states that Christ had made both groups, Israel and Gentiles, one. If both groups are made one, then Paul believes Israel is in Christ (notice they are made one in Christ's blood). How many actual Jewish people are not in Christ is not dealt with here, but if they are not in Christ, they have not been made one in Christ's blood, and are not true Israel.

Hey other covenantalists have said I have dispensational tendencies because of Rom 11:27. It does after all say that hardened Israel is still chosen -- meaning it's tough to say it's believing Israel Paul has in view. Israel's hardened for the sake of the Gentiles, so ... the Ep 2 unification isn't with natural Israel, but with what covenantalists would say is "the Israel of promise".

Which I think is the right way to take Ep 2. But in Rom 11 Paul says there's more to come for hardened Israel "because of the fathers".

I don't know how this fits into either classical scenario. I do know that, in a Covenantal sense, this means that the children of believers are considered elect. I remember in Dispensational terms this has classically meant that God would take up His treatment of natural Israel again specifically in the End Times. I think both of those basic ideas are reflected in Scripture -- I just wouldn't take the separate focus and divisions as far as dispensationalism does, and I haven't unified natural Israel as much as some Covenant positions have.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I think there's the point that Paul made that he's an Israelite, so God hasn't rejected His people in any pervasive sense. Yet His people in some sense (ethnic, national) haven't followed Christ.

So to me this is how Jew and Gentile become one in Christ in Ephesians 2.

However, Ephesians 2 is really particular, talking about being fellow-citizens with the saints, of the household of God. I'm also interested in what Dispensationalists do with that. Paul points out Gentiles' former separation from the Jewish commonwealth, and then says in Christ they've drawn near. Is this just "near -- but still not" in dispensationalism?

It doesn't clash with Classic Dispensationalism at all. Ephesians 2 is about Christians - Jewish and Gentile. He is not saying that those of Israel who have not accepted Christ are one with Christians. Romans 11 sheds alot of light on Ephesians 2.

 

[eph3Nine]

Please read thru Acts 2 again and tell me where you see ANY gentiles? This is still a JEWISH program in full swing and has NOTHING to do with we gentiles. How can Acts 2 be the beginning of the Church the Body of Christ, when God had yet to SET ASIDE ISRAEL and in Acts 3 is still offering the Kingdom to them? NO NO NO....Acts 2 isnt the BEGINNING of anything, but the continuation of a program already in operation...Judaism, the law. NO body of Christ found here, folks. We are still HID IN GOD, and KEPT SECRET til Acts 9, when the first member of the Body is saved on the road to Damascus.

 

[heymikey80]

It doesn't clash with Classic Dispensationalism at all. Ephesians 2 is about Christians - Jewish and Gentile. He is not saying that those of Israel who have not accepted Christ are one with Christians. Romans 11 sheds alot of light on Ephesians 2.

Now that's a good point. I think the conclusions of Covenantals and classic Dispensationals line up well here, then. Covenantalists say the real citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel is being members of God's household, not national citizenry. Dispensationalists emphasize that the citizenship is not national citizenry either.

So this seems to be differences in a "path to the conclusion", not differences in the conclusion itself.

Are dispensationalists in agreement that this passage is emphasizing the combination and one-community of Jew and Gentile in Christ? And if so how is this "aliens to the commonwealth of Israel" understood: as aliens of the nation of Israel? If so, in what way did Christ draw the Gentiles near on this count?

 

[cubanito]

I am a "moderate" dispy. I believe that there is yet a plan of God for a national, racial, Israel in a millenial Kigdom. If I were to follow "Classical" dispys, I would then say that in eternity, Israel would inherit an Earthly Kingdom and the mostly Gentile Church a Heavenly one. Under such a schema, these verse make no sense to me.

I believe that at the end of the millenial Kingdom, that is at the start of the Eternal rest for all saved humans, there shall be a single abode for all: a remade earth, with a central capital at Jerusalem, an actual physical city consisting of a building ~2,000 miles in heigth, length and width. Thus in the final destination, ALL believers will share a common nation, or better put, a common DESTInation.

Now this is not your typical dispy view, and it is much closer to the Covenantal understanding. However, there's a lot of time between here and the "ressurection of all flesh." It is during that time that Israel and the Church remain separate entities, so that still leaves a bit of a problem, as Paul says "now" you have been made one.

2 answers: first, when discussing God's perspective on things, time has a funny way of being expressed. To God we are now sinless, and have been from the foundation of the world, as He sees us only by way of Christ's atonement. Yet we know we are not truly sinless now. Thus to God, there is a sense in which our ultimate incorporation into a single body is a done deal from our conversion. This is not a familiar form of thinking for humans, and does not fit neatly in either human language or linear temporal logic, yet it is strongly implied in Christ's "Before Abraham was, I Am."

2- Politically this was a necessary assertion. At the time of this letter Romans required Emperor worship EXCEPT of the Jews. For a Gentile to refuse to worship the old gods and the emperor was a death sentence. But at the time of this Epistle there was a window of opportunity for conversion of Gentiles without the death sentence, if they be politically understood by Rome as a Jewish sect, which indeeed was the Roman position at this time (see the scattered encounters with Roman procurators in Acts). Stressing a political union or at least nearness to the Jewish state was for thie meantime of much benefit. Paul was not above taking politically wise positions, as evidenced by his reliance on Roman citizenaship on several occasions. Later, when the advantage of this verse disapeared, so did the nation of Israel. Let's remember the verse speaks of the 'polity" (commonwealth) of Israel, and such did not exist from 70AD (actually a bit later under bar-Kochba) until the 20th century. Thus the applicability of this verse in a political sense is limited. In the spiritual sense, see above.

JR

 

[Tertius]

I was reading Ephesians 2, and wondered how anyone can read verse 11 and onward, and still hold to a dispensational view...

Actually, I would contend the exact opposite, and that Ephesians 2 establishes a dispensational view. Paul contrasts periods of time including "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So what about "time past" and this "middle wall of partition"?

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

What does the Apostle Paul mean when he says that Christ "was a minister of the circumcsion?" Often overlooked and unrecognized, Paul is emphasizing the fact that the revealed purpose of earthly ministry of Christ concerned Jews, Israel, and the prophetic kingdom. In the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the law was still in place and the middle wall of partition was still up. Whereas in Paul's epistles, we are dealing with the (later reavealed) heavenly ministry of Christ which concerns God's hidden purpose (i.e. the mystery) concerning the body of Christ. In his epistles, the Apostle Paul emphasizes this fact by making a distinction between "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

In the "time past" of the earthly ministry of Christ, there was a difference or distinction between Jew and Gentile, and concerned the prophetic kingdom. This is why Christ commanded the twelve concerning the prophetic kingdom being at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In "time past," Gentiles were without direct hope. God's chosen vessel in dealing with man was Israel. Gentiles had to approach God indirectly through Israel (i.e. "bless them that bless thee"). So in simplistic terms, this is how the middle wall of partition worked:

God/Christ <---> Israel <---> Gentiles

This divine order can be seen and demonstrated in the Old Testament and with Christ's dealings with Gentiles. Often unrecognized is the fact that there are only TWO recorded interactions of Christ with Gentiles. Both of these interactions clearly demonstrate that ("at that time") Israel was the vessel between Christ and the Gentiles.

GENTILE INTERACTION #1 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Correct Way

Luke 7:2-9 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

In this account, notice how the Gentile does not seek out Christ directly. He approaches indirectly through Israel. Israel then in turn, presents him to Christ, explaining his worthiness as a Gentile - i.e. he blessed Israel and recognized their God as the true God by building them a synagogue. Christ recognized this Gentile's correct approach of going through Israel and blessing them, as well as other details of his faith and knowledge.

GENTILE INTERACTION #2 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Incorrect Way

Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In this account, notice how the Gentile woman seeks out Christ directly, the incorrect way. She approaches him, and what did the Lord Jesus Christ do? "But he answered her not a word" and IGNORED her. Why? Because Gentiles were to go through Israel, which is why he also stated "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But something needs to be noted. Israel was failing in their responsbility. She did initially approach in the correct indirect way, but Israel apparently didn't want to deal with her (i.e. "she crieth after us") which was their role. They were ignoring her. Though Christ didn't answer her, and then stated he was sent only to Israel, the Gentile woman persisted. Christ then used an analogy of the divine order (i.e. God/Christ <---> Israel = "children" <---> Gentiles = "Dogs"). Like the centurion's servant, she demonstrated her clear knowledge of the divine order by stating that God's blessing goes to the gentiles ("dogs") through Israel. She understood the analogy, and iterated her position of being secondary to Israel. Christ recognized this Gentile's faith and knowledge of going through Israel.

In the "time past" of the Old Testament and the earthly ministry of Christ, Gentiles were concluded in unbelief and God set apart the nation Israel, which was his revealed purpose. When Israel proved themselves unworthy, stumbled and fell, God then revealed his hidden purpose through the Apostle Paul where he concluded all in unbelief (Romans 11:32), both Jew and Gentile. When reading the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it is important to recognize that these books are written "for us" but not everything is written or applicable "to us." The earthly ministry of Christ concerned Israel and the prophetic kingdom. Later the glorified and risen Christ raised up the Apostle Paul and revealed his heavenly ministry concerning the mystery and the body of Christ. Whereas in "time past" there was a distinction, there are all of the wonderful "but now's" that the Apostle Paul mentions over and over.

Ephesians 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

Also commonly unrecognized is that the Apostle Paul is the ideal representative of the body of Christ, and the breaking down of the middle wall of partition. Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen (Gentile rights).

 

[Dispy]

Actually, I would contend the exact opposite, and that Ephesians 2 establishes a dispensational view. Paul contrasts periods of time including "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So what about "time past" and this "middle wall of partition"?

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

What does the Apostle Paul mean when he says that Christ "was a minister of the circumcsion?" Often overlooked and unrecognized, Paul is emphasizing the fact that the revealed purpose of earthly ministry of Christ concerned Jews, Israel, and the prophetic kingdom. In the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the law was still in place and the middle wall of partition was still up. Whereas in Paul's epistles, we are dealing with the (later reavealed) heavenly ministry of Christ which concerns God's hidden purpose (i.e. the mystery) concerning the body of Christ. In his epistles, the Apostle Paul emphasizes this fact by making a distinction between "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

In the "time past" of the earthly ministry of Christ, there was a difference or distinction between Jew and Gentile, and concerned the prophetic kingdom. This is why Christ commanded the twelve concerning the prophetic kingdom being at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In "time past," Gentiles were without direct hope. God's chosen vessel in dealing with man was Israel. Gentiles had to approach God indirectly through Israel (i.e. "bless them that bless thee"). So in simplistic terms, this is how the middle wall of partition worked:

God/Christ <---> Israel <---> Gentiles

This divine order can be seen and demonstrated in the Old Testament and with Christ's dealings with Gentiles. Often unrecognized is the fact that there are only TWO recorded interactions of Christ with Gentiles. Both of these interactions clearly demonstrate that ("at that time") Israel was the vessel between Christ and the Gentiles.

GENTILE INTERACTION #1 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Correct Way

Luke 7:2-9 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

In this account, notice how the Gentile does not seek out Christ directly. He approaches indirectly through Israel. Israel then in turn, presents him to Christ, explaining his worthiness as a Gentile - i.e. he blessed Israel and recognized their God as the true God by building them a synagogue. Christ recognized this Gentile's correct approach of going through Israel and blessing them, as well as other details of his faith and knowledge.

GENTILE INTERACTION #2 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Incorrect Way

Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In this account, notice how the Gentile woman seeks out Christ directly, the incorrect way. She approaches him, and what did the Lord Jesus Christ do? "But he answered her not a word" and IGNORED her. Why? Because Gentiles were to go through Israel, which is why he also stated "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But something needs to be noted. Israel was failing in their responsbility. She did initially approach in the correct indirect way, but Israel apparently didn't want to deal with her (i.e. "she crieth after us") which was their role. They were ignoring her. Though Christ didn't answer her, and then stated he was sent only to Israel, the Gentile woman persisted. Christ then used an analogy of the divine order (i.e. God/Christ <---> Israel = "children" <---> Gentiles = "Dogs"). Like the centurion's servant, she demonstrated her clear knowledge of the divine order by stating that God's blessing goes to the gentiles ("dogs") through Israel. She understood the analogy, and iterated her position of being secondary to Israel. Christ recognized this Gentile's faith and knowledge of going through Israel.

In the "time past" of the Old Testament and the earthly ministry of Christ, Gentiles were concluded in unbelief and God set apart the nation Israel, which was his revealed purpose. When Israel proved themselves unworthy, stumbled and fell, God then revealed his hidden purpose through the Apostle Paul where he concluded all in unbelief (Romans 11:32), both Jew and Gentile. When reading the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it is important to recognize that these books are written "for us" but not everything is written or applicable "to us." The earthly ministry of Christ concerned Israel and the prophetic kingdom. Later the glorified and risen Christ raised up the Apostle Paul and revealed his heavenly ministry concerning the mystery and the body of Christ. Whereas in "time past" there was a distinction, there are all of the wonderful "but now's" that the Apostle Paul mentions over and over.

Ephesians 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

Also commonly unrecognized is that the Apostle Paul is the ideal representative of the body of Christ, and the breaking down of the middle wall of partition. Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen (Gentile rights).

GREETINGS and AMEN!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[eph3Nine]

Actually, I would contend the exact opposite, and that Ephesians 2 establishes a dispensational view. Paul contrasts periods of time including "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So what about "time past" and this "middle wall of partition"?

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

What does the Apostle Paul mean when he says that Christ "was a minister of the circumcsion?" Often overlooked and unrecognized, Paul is emphasizing the fact that the revealed purpose of earthly ministry of Christ concerned Jews, Israel, and the prophetic kingdom. In the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the law was still in place and the middle wall of partition was still up. Whereas in Paul's epistles, we are dealing with the (later reavealed) heavenly ministry of Christ which concerns God's hidden purpose (i.e. the mystery) concerning the body of Christ. In his epistles, the Apostle Paul emphasizes this fact by making a distinction between "time past" and "but now."

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

In the "time past" of the earthly ministry of Christ, there was a difference or distinction between Jew and Gentile, and concerned the prophetic kingdom. This is why Christ commanded the twelve concerning the prophetic kingdom being at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In "time past," Gentiles were without direct hope. God's chosen vessel in dealing with man was Israel. Gentiles had to approach God indirectly through Israel (i.e. "bless them that bless thee"). So in simplistic terms, this is how the middle wall of partition worked:

God/Christ <---> Israel <---> Gentiles

This divine order can be seen and demonstrated in the Old Testament and with Christ's dealings with Gentiles. Often unrecognized is the fact that there are only TWO recorded interactions of Christ with Gentiles. Both of these interactions clearly demonstrate that ("at that time") Israel was the vessel between Christ and the Gentiles.

GENTILE INTERACTION #1 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Correct Way

Luke 7:2-9 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

In this account, notice how the Gentile does not seek out Christ directly. He approaches indirectly through Israel. Israel then in turn, presents him to Christ, explaining his worthiness as a Gentile - i.e. he blessed Israel and recognized their God as the true God by building them a synagogue. Christ recognized this Gentile's correct approach of going through Israel and blessing them, as well as other details of his faith and knowledge.

GENTILE INTERACTION #2 - A Gentile Approaching Christ in the Incorrect Way

Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In this account, notice how the Gentile woman seeks out Christ directly, the incorrect way. She approaches him, and what did the Lord Jesus Christ do? "But he answered her not a word" and IGNORED her. Why? Because Gentiles were to go through Israel, which is why he also stated "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But something needs to be noted. Israel was failing in their responsbility. She did initially approach in the correct indirect way, but Israel apparently didn't want to deal with her (i.e. "she crieth after us") which was their role. They were ignoring her. Though Christ didn't answer her, and then stated he was sent only to Israel, the Gentile woman persisted. Christ then used an analogy of the divine order (i.e. God/Christ <---> Israel = "children" <---> Gentiles = "Dogs"). Like the centurion's servant, she demonstrated her clear knowledge of the divine order by stating that God's blessing goes to the gentiles ("dogs") through Israel. She understood the analogy, and iterated her position of being secondary to Israel. Christ recognized this Gentile's faith and knowledge of going through Israel.

In the "time past" of the Old Testament and the earthly ministry of Christ, Gentiles were concluded in unbelief and God set apart the nation Israel, which was his revealed purpose. When Israel proved themselves unworthy, stumbled and fell, God then revealed his hidden purpose through the Apostle Paul where he concluded all in unbelief (Romans 11:32), both Jew and Gentile. When reading the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it is important to recognize that these books are written "for us" but not everything is written or applicable "to us." The earthly ministry of Christ concerned Israel and the prophetic kingdom. Later the glorified and risen Christ raised up the Apostle Paul and revealed his heavenly ministry concerning the mystery and the body of Christ. Whereas in "time past" there was a distinction, there are all of the wonderful "but now's" that the Apostle Paul mentions over and over.

Ephesians 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

Also commonly unrecognized is that the Apostle Paul is the ideal representative of the body of Christ, and the breaking down of the middle wall of partition. Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen (Gentile rights).

Exactly. Welcome, Tertius.