Looking for a Calvininst Viewpoint

[nasa1]

I would like to ask, what is the Calvinist Viewpoint on Jesus saying that He longed to gather the childen of Israel to Him as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing.

Also, I once heard a Calvinist say that G_D is not up in heaven, saying, oh, if only they would believe and be saved! - yet G_D says in the Torah , Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them! It sounds like G_D wants people to repent and stay obedient, but that it is up to us to choose life or death.

nasa1

 

[da525382]

I would like to ask, what is the Calvinist Viewpoint on Jesus saying that He longed to gather the childen of Israel to Him as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing.

Also, I once heard a Calvinist say that G_D is not up in heaven, saying, oh, if only they would believe and be saved! - yet G_D says in the Torah , Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them! It sounds like G_D wants people to repent and stay obedient, but that it is up to us to choose life or death.

nasa1

Nasa1,

It would seem to me that yes, God's own desire is for all to choose Him. Yet I think in the final analysis we have all forsaken Him, we have chosen our own selves and our own paths, and perhaps that is more of what Calvinism is saying, merely the scriptural precepts of how truly dead we are....not one is righteous, no not one.

So, yes we choose God, but only because He Himself gives us the enabling power to do so, to see beyond our quagmire, to see Him freely. In other words, yes, we choose Him, but we do so because He chose us first via His miraculous and mysterious ways.

After all, it is in Him we are truly free. So, our ill-conceived notion that we are free to choose him is simply mistaken, it is not scriptural, ISTM. We are not free until we are His. And it is He who frees us from our bondage, not ourselves, that is why all glory and honor belong to Him.

Don

 

[bradfordl]

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The word "would" in both cases here is translated from the Greek word thelō, which is a form of the word determine. He says He determined to gather, while they determined not. This does not mean He did not gather all that He determined, it simply indicts them for trying to resist His will. God will do everything He determines to do, man's rebellion notwithstanding. And man's rebellion will only leave his house desolate.

Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them!

You'll need to provide chapter and verse so that we can examine the language precisely. Loose paraphrasing is usually influenced by the mindset of the "paraphraser", so it is pointless to discuss.

 

[nasa1]

Nasa1,

It would seem to me that yes, God\\\'s own desire is for all to choose Him. Yet I think in the final analysis we have all forsaken Him, we have chosen our own selves and our own paths, and perhaps that is more of what Calvinism is saying, merely the scriptural precepts of how truly dead we are....not one is righteous, no not one.

So, yes we choose God, but only because He Himself gives us the enabling power to do so, to see beyond our quagmire, to see Him freely. In other words, yes, we choose Him, but we do so because He chose us first via His miraculous and mysterious ways.

After all, it is in Him we are truly free. So, our ill-conceived notion that we are free to choose him is simply mistaken, it is not scriptural, ISTM. We are not free until we are His. And it is He who frees us from our bondage, not ourselves, that is why all glory and honor belong to Him.

Don

Thank you for replying

I am prone to agree with you, as I find myself believing and agreeing with many of your views. I have found myself agreeing with TULIP many times.

It is hard to grasp sometimes...it seems that if G-D really wanted everyone to be saved, He would do it. Jesus passed by so many while He was on earth. He purposely blinded certain people so that they would not see and hear, and be forgiven. Does that sound like a G-D who wants to save all? Not to me.

I guess I do not understand why G-D would lament for those who do not obey or turn to Him, if it is He who grants repentence. I wonder if only the elect throughout the ages have the ability to obey or disobey. How do you deal with your questions, any scriptures that seem hard for you, that go against your understanding?

nasa1

 

[nasa1]

The word "would" in both cases here is translated from the Greek word thelō, which is a form of the word determine. He says He determined to gather, while they determined not. This does not mean He did not gather all that He determined, it simply indicts them for trying to resist His will. God will do everything He determines to do, man\\\\\\\'s rebellion notwithstanding. And man\\\\\\\'s rebellion will only leave his house desolate.

You\\\\\\\'ll need to provide chapter and verse so that we can examine the language precisely. Loose paraphrasing is usually influenced by the mindset of the "paraphraser", so it is pointless to discuss.

This is the passage:

Deuteronomy 5:29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

nasa1

 

[heymikey80]

I would like to ask, what is the Calvinist Viewpoint on Jesus saying that He longed to gather the childen of Israel to Him as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing.

Also, I once heard a Calvinist say that G_D is not up in heaven, saying, oh, if only they would believe and be saved! - yet G_D says in the Torah , Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them! It sounds like G_D wants people to repent and stay obedient, but that it is up to us to choose life or death.

nasa1

Yet God has already said that without Him no one chooses this way:

The LORD saw it, and it displeased him
that there was no justice.
He saw that there was no man,
and wondered that there was no one to intercede;
then his own arm brought him salvation,
and his righteousness upheld him.
He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
and a helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on garments of vengeance for clothing,
and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak.
According to their deeds, so will he repay,
wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies;
to the coastlands he will render repayment.
So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west,
and his glory from the rising of the sun;
for he will come like a rushing stream,
which the wind of the LORD drives.

"And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the LORD.

"And as for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring," says the LORD, "from this time forth and forevermore." Is 59:15-21​

 

[hansman]

nasa1--

I do not yet have enough posts to include a link , but if you go to Piper's desiringgod.org website and do a search for two wills, you will find an article that addresses the fact that God does not want any to perish but yet passes over some people when deciding on who to elect. It is one of those things that is hard to get a handle on. Another is God decrees all that comes to pass yet holds people responsible for their sins.

Blessings

Hans

 

[heymikey80]

nasa1--

I do not yet have enough posts to include a link , but if you go to Piper's desiringgod.org website and do a search for two wills, you will find an article that addresses the fact that God does not want any to perish but yet passes over some people when deciding on who to elect. It is one of those things that is hard to get a handle on. Another is God decrees all that comes to pass yet holds people responsible for their sins.

Blessings

Hans

Maybe you mean this link? Are There Two Wills in God?

I think the way this is understood is that there are different desires in God depending on what level we're talking about God's desire.

Matthew 13:11ff points to an intentional withholding of information from those who "have not", and giving more to those who "have been given to know".

Then there's God's general desire that all people not sin, and that all people turn from sin and not be punished for what they had done before in the Deuteronomy passage, as well as in Ezekiel 18 / 33.

To accomplish these things God puts the punishment on another, as in Isaiah 53 & 2 Cor 5:17-21. And yet while it shows God's desire extended for everyone without respect of who or what they are, Christ's sacrifice is intended to atone for those God has given to know Christ, and to rely on Him.

 

[bradfordl]

the fact that God does not want any to perish

Quite a presumption! Do you have any scripture to support this premise? Please do not use 2Peter, as the quote normally used from that book to support this strange idea can only do so when taken entirely out of context.

If God didn't want any to perish, none would.

 

[da525382]

Thank you for replying

I am prone to agree with you, as I find myself believing and agreeing with many of your views. I have found myself agreeing with TULIP many times.

It is hard to grasp sometimes...it seems that if G-D really wanted everyone to be saved, He would do it. Jesus passed by so many while He was on earth. He purposely blinded certain people so that they would not see and hear, and be forgiven. Does that sound like a G-D who wants to save all? Not to me.

I guess I do not understand why G-D would lament for those who do not obey or turn to Him, if it is He who grants repentence. I wonder if only the elect throughout the ages have the ability to obey or disobey. How do you deal with your questions, any scriptures that seem hard for you, that go against your understanding?

nasa1

Hi again, nasa1,

Your thoughts are very much my own. What I think gives me some peace about it is that God is also patient and forebearing beyond our comprehension, and that a God of such immeasurable grace and mercy as our God is the only God who would let man survive, for our sin was so horrible, we all deserved to die thousands of years ago.

Just look at the news and see the depraved hearts out there....we see the news and are left speechless by the unspeakable things man does. It is so sickening, it makes one embarrassed to be a human being.

What I do when I have questions is I research it out online, I read whatever I can get my hands on when issues come up, going through as many scriptures as possible.

One thing I think I have learned is that God has always been a God who calls man to faith. So, those in the Old Testament and New Testament are all children of God, we are all the church who live by faith.

Even when the law of Moses came, it did not negate salvation through faith. Even God himself said the endless sacrifices under the law that the people started to trust in would not take their sins away. It has always been faith that saves, placing our trust in God, as a matter of our hearts, not simply obeying rules for obedience sake.

Don

 

[Iosias]

I would like to ask, what is the Calvinist Viewpoint on Jesus saying that He longed to gather the childen of Israel to Him as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing.

Also, I once heard a Calvinist say that G_D is not up in heaven, saying, oh, if only they would believe and be saved! - yet G_D says in the Torah , Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them! It sounds like G_D wants people to repent and stay obedient, but that it is up to us to choose life or death.

nasa1

In his The Cause of God and Truth John Gill dealt with many verses such as these and this deals with the verse you are asking about.

My view is that in this verse Jesus Christ is rebuking a stubborn and rebellious nation and I agree with Calvin that it “is expressive of indignation rather than compassion.” Just look at the context of the verse! Earlier in the chapter we read of Christ denouncement: “woe unto you”, “fools and blind”, “blind guides”, “Ye serpents, generation of vipers”, and then immediately after verse 37 we read the declaration of judgment upon Jerusalem “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Chapter 24 is the Olivet discourse which foretells of the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem. As is plain, the context of the verse is such that I say it must be a rebuke, a summary of the charge against Jerusalem. Calvin correctly points out how “we must…observe the vehemence of the discourse.” God sent prophet after prophet to the nation of Israel and what did they do? They killed them, they stoned them to death. This obstinacy was the result of the natural man to the word of God. Yes God is willing to save all who repent yet the intent of this phrase here serves to highlight the stubbornness, their haughty distain, their inexcusable ingratitude towards God’s constant and interrupted advances to them through the prophets. So the verse ends “ye would not”, it was not that God did not make it known what they must do but rather their damnation lied at their own door. So I say that this verse shows not that God desires the salvation of all who hear the gospel but rather it teaches the justness of God in punishing unbelief and the context teaches that this verse is an indignant rebuke of a rebellious stiff-necked people.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is the passage:

Deuteronomy 5:29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

nasa1

thanks nasa , I can give you my view , it may be that few will agree with it , but after careful consideration over 25 years I think this explanation is accurate , clear , and balanced . I fully support this view ;


God's will of desire , His complacent will = Will of Approbation is well spelled out in this text ;



..Calvinists have recognized the full truth as unmistakably set forth in those Scriptures that ascribe evil to God (see Ex. 7:3,4; 1 Sam. 18:10; 2 Sam. 24:1, compared with 1 Chron. 21:1; John 12:40; Acts 4:27, 28; Rom. 9:18), and, therefore, have been unwilling to divorce God’s permission of sin from His decrees; Arminians have accused them of making God the author of sin. But every representative Calvinist that has ever lived has repudiated this charge and, like John Gill, has given logical ground for that repudiation. This includes Calvin himself. A careful perusal of his works will show indisputably that he taught nothing more with regard to God’s relation to sin than is taught herein.

2. GOD’S WILL OF APPROBATION.

This phase of God’s will has to do with God’s attitude toward things considered separately and apart from their relation to His eternal purpose. When thus considered, sin is never pleasing to God. God never approves sin as a thing within itself; nevertheless He has decreed by the most wise and holy design to allow men to use the powers He gives them to commit sin. God always approves righteousness, but in His perfect plan He has not found it suitable to bring all men to righteousness. Herein lies both the distinction and the harmony between God’s will of purpose and His will of approbation.[1] God’s will of purpose embraces both evil and good, while His will of approbation includes only that which is good within itself. Another difference between these two phases of God’s will lies in the fact that His will of purpose is always accomplished in its fullness, while His will of approbation is, at best, accomplished only very imperfectly on earth.

Let no one suppose that it is here meant that God would have some things come to pass that He cannot bring to pass; or that He would prevent the coming to pass of some things that He cannot prevent. God always accomplishes what He wants to accomplish, but, in doing this, He uses that which within itself is not a thing that is pleasing to Him. Just as a parent, taking pleasure in the proper training of a child, often chastens the child, notwithstanding the fact that the chastening of itself affords the parent no pleasure.​

God’s pleasure in things as a whole is always carried out. "Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased" (Ps. 115:3), "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps" (Ps. 135:6). "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:10).​

It is on the basis of the phase of God’s will now under consideration that Ezek. 33:11 is to be explained and understood.[2]​

However, the death here mentioned is not spiritual death, but physical death in the Babylonian siege. But the relation of the declaration to the will of God is the same. In itself considered, the perishing of the Israelites in the Babylonian siege vas not a pleasing thing to God; but, considered in connection with things as a whole, God had decreed to permit the death of many of them.​

Much might be said as to why God permits that which He does not approve, but this fact can never be explained to the satisfaction of the finite mind. It was in the face of this fact that Paul arose to great heights in exclaiming: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed to him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:33-36). Therefore we do not attempt to explain this mystery lest we seem to try to be wise above that which is written or to darken counsel by words to no profit.

God’s will of approbation is revealed in two ways, viz., through His Word, the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit. It is revealed through His Word as to broad principles and basic truths. It is revealed through the Holy Spirit as to the application of these principles and truths to the circumstances and details of every-day life, and as to the calling, capacity, and plan in which God would have each individual serve him.

It is God’s will of approbation, as revealed in His Word, that fixes man’s responsibility. This is very forcefully shown in Deuteronomy 29:29, which reads: "The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." "The secret things" are those things embraced in God’s will of purpose or decree. "The things that are revealed" are those things that are embraced in God’s will of approbation as revealed in His Word.

ENDNOTES:

[1] Theologians have used various names for this second phase of God’s will, such as revealed will, preceptive will, directive will, will of command, will of desire, and will of pleasure. The author has adopted the designation herein employed as the one that seems to him most fitting and comprehensive.

[2] But it is not on the basis of this phase of God’s will that we are to understand 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4. See treatment of these two passages in chapter on atonement.

http://www.pbministries.org/Theology.../chapter06.htm.....

 

[Rick Otto]

I would like to ask, what is the Calvinist Viewpoint on Jesus saying that He longed to gather the childen of Israel to Him as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing.

Same as the criminal court judge longing that no one would commit a crime so he could sell ice cream for a living. Tho we long for the ideal, we keep it real.

Also, I once heard a Calvinist say that G_D is not up in heaven, saying, oh, if only they would believe and be saved! - yet G_D says in the Torah , Oh! that they would fear me and keep my commandments, so that all would go well with them! It sounds like G_D wants people to repent and stay obedient, but that it is up to us to choose life or death.

nasa1

Agreed. That's what it sounds like - if that's the only thing you've listened to.
But when ya listen to Him tell ya that it ain't about will, it's about mercy, or if ya listen when He says its all His doing - like allowing Job to suffer, like planning His Son's crucifixion, like choosing all twelve apostles knowing one was a 'devil'... you get a clue into predestination.

Then all ya gotta do is get over some narcissism & figure out how predestintion doesn't eliminate the will, or personal responsibility for predestined choices.
Not as easy as it sounds.
...well not as easy for us.

 

[nasa1]

Quite a presumption! Do you have any scripture to support this premise? Please do not use 2Peter, as the quote normally used from that book to support this strange idea can only do so when taken entirely out of context.

If God didn\'t want any to perish, none would.

That makes sense to me. If G-d has two wills, as some have suggested, I think He would be a confused G-d.

What do you think of Jesus saying that it was not the Fathers will that any children perish?

nasa1

 

[cygnusx1]

That makes sense to me. If G-d has two wills, as some have suggested, I think He would be a confused G-d.

What do you think of Jesus saying that it was not the Fathers will that any children perish?

nasa1

before I answer , could you please tell me what this means ,

Luke 22

39 Then going out he went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed him. 40 When he arrived at the place he said to them, "Pray that you may not undergo the test." 41 After withdrawing about a stone's throw from them and kneeling, he prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done."
how many wills did Christ have ?

 

[bradfordl]

What do you think of Jesus saying that it was not the Fathers will that any children perish?

Scripture, please?

 

[heymikey80]

That makes sense to me. If G-d has two wills, as some have suggested, I think He would be a confused G-d.

It's going to be very hard to sustain the view that God has but one will.

Follow me on this one, because it's a philosophical impossibility. Or one of the assumptions about God is false.

A1. God knew everything that would happen when He created the world.

A2. God could do anything He wished in creating the world, could have changed anything He wished to accomplish what He wished.

C1. Everything that occurs now is God's will.
C2. Everything that occurred in the past is God's will.
C3. Everything that occurs in the future is God's will.

O1. Different things occur in the past, present and future.

C4. God's will is different for the past, present and future.
Q.E.D.

 

[Rick Otto]

It IS "up to us" to choose.
Now consider what "us" are: Creations.
How can we not be(in choosing) what we were created to be (either "vessels of honor" or "beasts fitted for destruction"?)
Ro9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ro 9:22 - Show Context What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
2Pe 2:12 - Show Context But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[nasa1]

Scripture, please?

Matthew 18:14
KJV: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

I would also like to add, in the scriptures that speak of Esau and Jacob, the term salvation does not come up at all. I think G-d is simply speaking of choosing who will serve Him, not who will be damned or who will be saved.

In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul says that He desires that His Israelite brothers be saved. Then he says that some were hardened, but he also adds that those that fell did not stumble beyond recovery - the ones G-d hardened could come back.

 

[Rick Otto]

Matthew 18:14
KJV: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

He is talking about believers, not every soul that would ever exist.

I would also like to add, in the scriptures that speak of Esau and Jacob, the term salvation does not come up at all. I think G-d is simply speaking of choosing who will serve Him, not who will be damned or who will be saved.

?Listen to what you just said:
Is not choosing who will serve Him about who will be saved or damned?
In the larger sense, don't even those who will be damned serve the purpose of His justice, as those who serve Him & are saved serve the purpose of His mercy?

In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul says that He desires that His Israelite brothers be saved. Then he says that some were hardened, but he also adds that those that fell did not stumble beyond recovery - the ones G-d hardened could come back

I couldn't find that in my KJV:
1: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2: That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9: For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29: And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30: What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31: But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32: Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33: As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.