Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

1 Tim 1:19
with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.

John 6:66
At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Hebrews is talking to Jews who were familiar to the sacrifices (before Jesus) of the OT.

The others are not about salvation

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if one confesses sin, they are doing so knowing that they will just do that sin some time next week, next month, or at some other time in the future?

The Bible plainly says all men are sinners. Not "were" sinners, as you suppose. We confess in order to be cleansed. And as Jesus had to teach ol' Peter in John 13, even though he was "clean", meaning saved, he still needed his feet cleaned to have fellowship with Jesus. Otherwise, Peter could have "no part" with Jesus. That's about fellowship obviously.

What is the purpose of confessing one's sin then?

I just told you. From the Bible. 1 Jn 1:9.

One is not really sorry if they are admitting to the fact that they will just immediately do so at some point in the future.

What is it about the words "immediately" and some point in the future" that aren't clear enough that they aren't equated at all? That's the continuing hang up that you present.

In Jesus' day, foot washing wasn't symbolic. It was functional. Animals shared the roads and paths with humans. So people got FECES all over their feet when they walked the roads and paths.

If you lived at that time, would you want anyone to track any of that stuff into your home? Hm? Of course not. You'd have a servant clean the feet of all visitors.

So, even though one would have had a bath before visiting, their feet would still need to be cleaned before entering the home for the purpose of fellowship. That was Jesus' point to Peter and the rest.

For is a man really sorry if he says to his wife that he cheated on her if he planned on cheating on her again at some point in the future? No. Of course not. Why do you think it is any different with God?...

I've explained this thoroughly. There is nothing more that I can do. But go ahead and knock yourself out with the most outlandish scenarios you can think of.

btw, I seriously doubt that anyone who does subscribe to eternal security would even come up with the wild ideas you bring up.

But since you do bring up extreme scenarios, it only shows that the real person that has been offended is you. And you don't want anyone to get away with anything. You want them in hell, right?

Well, God has a different plan for mankind. The plan is based on GRACE, something that the conditional security ilk have no idea about.

I've already shown the verses that teach that Christ died for all sin once for all. So even when a child of God sins after being saved, that sin was already covered by Christ's sacrifice.

It seems you're understanding of what the OT sacrifices were for is lacking.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's gift is the grace necessary for salvation.

Incorrect. Salvation itself is the gift. As well, eternal life itself is a gift of God. Rom 6:23, 2 Cor 9:15

If we reject his gift it doesn't mean that God revoked his offer. His grace enables us to be saved, it does not force us to be saved.

Please cite any verse that actually says that man can give away or give back his gift of eternal life/salvation.

1 Tim 1:19
with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.

To destroy one's faith does NOT equate to loss of salvation. That is just wild speculation and assumption.

John 6:66
At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

And? Nothing here about loss of salvation.

2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

The key is what "last state" means. There is nothing IN context to suggest eternity. It does speak of one's time on earth AFTER they have "again entangled" themselves.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

You know why there remains no sacrifice for sins? Christ already died for all sins, once for all.

There are no verses about Christ only dying for sins up to the point of believing in Christ. This is proven by the Scriptures that Christ died for all. Even those who never believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It always amazes me what lengths Calvinists will go to in order to change the meaning of scripture.

First, I'm NOT either Calvinist nor Arminian. Surprise!!

Second, the verses I provided are quite clear enough. And you've simply ignored all of them.

I didn't even try to "explain" them. I just quoted Scripture, and you just ignored the whole lot.

I guess that's the only easy way out of having to explain verses that clearly refute one's beliefs.

 

[sdowney717]

First, I'm NOT either Calvinist nor Arminian. Surprise!!

Second, the verses I provided are quite clear enough. And you've simply ignored all of them.

I didn't even try to "explain" them. I just quoted Scripture, and you just ignored the whole lot.

I guess that's the only easy way out of having to explain verses that clearly refute one's beliefs.

About that Roman Catholic salvation from here
https://carm.org/catholic-salvation-attain
Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
• “If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, I'm NOT either Calvinist nor Arminian. Surprise!!

Second, the verses I provided are quite clear enough. And you've simply ignored all of them.

I didn't even try to "explain" them. I just quoted Scripture, and you just ignored the whole lot.

I guess that's the only easy way out of having to explain verses that clearly refute one's beliefs.

Ditto. If someone is not a Calvinist they usually don't identify with the counterpart at all of Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

About that Roman Catholic salvation from here
https://carm.org/catholic-salvation-attain
Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
• “If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

Which is why I'm also not RCC.

 

[Thursday]

Hebrews is talking to Jews who were familiar to the sacrifices (before Jesus) of the OT.

The others are not about salvation

Of course they are about salvation.

Can a man be saved without faith?

Hebrews is talking to Christians about salvation.

 

[Thursday]

About that Roman Catholic salvation from here
https://carm.org/catholic-salvation-attain
Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
• “If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

CARM is a bigoted dishonest organization that consistently lies about Catholic teaching.

 

[Thursday]

Incorrect. Salvation itself is the gift. As well, eternal life itself is a gift of God. Rom 6:23, 2 Cor 9:15


Please cite any verse that actually says that man can give away or give back his gift of eternal life/salvation.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
Stand firm, and you will win life.

Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned...10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love,

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well, there is no slander here, my friend. I am just speaking the truth of God's Word. For the moral law has no use or obligation (i.e. Antinomianism) when one says they will always sin at some point in the future.

Jesus said "sin no more." to two people. In fact, Jesus said to the man he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." But folks here are saying they can never stop sinning in this life. Imagine if you said that to the man Jesus healed? He would be apalled at such a notion. Why? Because he would realize that a worse thing could come upon him if he did sin again. ....

“ And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.” Romans 3:8

You are slandering your brothers and sisters. Your condemnation is just.

You say that the moral law would be of no use or obligation if one says they will always sin at some point in the future.

Your logic is flawed. That is not a valid deduction.

If only the display of God's grace in our future forgiveness was the "use" of of the moral law in this case, that would be enough alone to make your logic incorrect.

The the universal belief by those here in the future judgment of our sins at the Judgment Seat is enough to make your logic incorrect concerning our "obligation".

“ Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:9-10

“ But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.” Romans14;10

Notice the “you” that I highlighted above. Those are questions which the living God with whom you have to do at the Judgment Seat is asking you through us here now.

I warn you again repent of your sin against us or you will answer for it at the Judgment Seat.

It would be a sin for me to not warn you of the judgment to come.

I am under "obligation" to warn you that you are sinning.

 

[Thursday]

“
“ But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.” Romans14;10

Notice the “you” that I highlighted above. Those are questions which the living God with whom you have to do at the Judgment Seat is asking you through us here now.

I warn you again repent of your sin against us or you will answer for it at the Judgment Seat.

This is funny coming from a Calvinist.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is funny coming from a Calvinist.

I'm not a Calvinist.

But how so?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Calvinism claims that man reaps what God sows.

All of creation reaps what God sows.

But even so it does not negate the fact that man also reaps what he sows.

Your logic is flawed as I suspected.

Calvinism tells us that those who are elect just happen to be the lucky lottery winners drawn out of God's hat.

Not so.

Calvinism simply tells us that the reasons for God choices are not revealed to us. It also tells us that that reason is not because of something we have done. (We weren't in existence yet when He made the choice. Duhhh!)

God has good reason for everything He chooses to do.

He does everything after His good and perfect will.

God doesn't wear a hat.

 

[Thursday]

This is funny coming from a Calvinist.

Calvinists believe that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have faith and are one of the "elect".

 

[Thursday]

All of creation reaps what God sows.

But even so it does not negate the fact that man also reaps what he sows.

Your logic is flawed as I suspected.

It is not my logic that is flawed.

I believe that God gives us sufficient grace for salvation. We either cooperate with this grace or reject it.

Calvinists believe that God sends some men to Hell and saves others with no consideration for their actions on earth.

 

[Thursday]

Calvinism simply tells us that the reasons for God choices are not revealed to us. It also tells us that that reason is not because of something we have done. (We weren't in existence yet when He made the choice. Duhhh!)

God has good reason for everything He chooses to do.

He does everything after His good and perfect will.

God doesn't wear a hat.

The reasons for God's choices are revealed for us quite clearly in scripture and Church teaching.

To teach otherwise is dangerous.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of course they are about salvation.

Can a man be saved without faith?

Hebrews is talking to Christians about salvation.

No. Hebrews is talking about in the OT there were blood sacrifices made for temporary atonement of sin. That is the way the word sacrifices is used.

Read it again.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Calvinists believe that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have faith and are one of the "elect".

That is not true.

Calvinists believe that it matters very much what we do.

Calvinists believe that God sends some men to Hell and saves others with no consideration for their actions on earth

That is not true.

Calvinists believe that God sends men to Hell precisely because of their actions on earth.

 

[Thursday]

No. Hebrews is talking about in the OT there were blood sacrifices made for temporary atonement of sin. That is the way the word sacrifices is used.

Read it again.

It is talking about salvation for Christians under Christ. That is what the whole book is about.

I think you are grasping at straws here.