Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, when I speak against what I believe a person thinks Calvinism is, I will try to clarify what they actually believe. But it is difficult to do that if they are insulting me all the time. For they have to realize that their belief on Calvinism is not the only one. They have to clarify their beliefs from what other people think it actually is. Insulting them for getting their belief wrong is not helpful. People are not mind readers. They do not know what you believe. That is part of why we are in a discussion. To discuss our beliefs.

Anyways, you are making me think more about people's beliefs and how to handle them. From now on: When I speak generally, I will say, one belief in Calvinism states.... "this and this", etc. I will also ask questions about what a person believes Calvinism to be on a particular matter before I speak out against it with them. Now, granted, this does not mean that once I clarified their beliefs, I cannot point out how it is wrong, etc. Like I said, pointing out to someone how a belief in jumping off a cliff because they do not think gravity exists is not a wrong thing to do. It only becomes wrong if I call them stupid for believing such a thing, or if I accuse them falsely of other things as a result.


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[Thursday]

Which point of Calvinism states that a regenerated believer is permitted to freely sin and has no need to repent? Which point explicitly states that a person who continuously lives in unrepentant sin is saved? Which point suggests that a child of God will take pleasure in living in sin?

Unconditional Election

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, I want to say one more thing. I apologize if somebody feels I misrepresented their beliefs in some way. From now, when I discuss folk's beliefs here, I will first clarify what they believe and I will copy and save what they have said concerning their belief to a document for me to bring up later. For me: it is easy for folks to see in what I believe. All they have to do is go to my Profile page and click on the information button and click on the link that is for my detailed statement of faith. For I have nothing to hide in what I believe God's Word to say.

In addition, if someone feels hurt by anything I said and they feel I attacked them personally, please send me a PM and I will be happy to make ammends if you feel I have done so. Please provide me the Post #'s and we can discuss it. However, please keep in mind that if I was attacking a belief (and not you as a person), I was not seeking to make it personal with you so as to hurt you on a personal level.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you all today.
And may His peace fill you, as well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Unconditional Election

Here is a good article that refutes Calvinism in regards to Unconditional Election.

http://thomastaylorministries.org/blog/calvinism-refuted-unconditional-election/

It speaks briefly of Hyper Calvinism, even though the article is refutation on the regular version or form of Calvinism.

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[GillDouglas]

Unconditional Election

I had expected the response to be Preservation of the Saints. Just like any point of the five, it relies on understanding the others four as it relates to the salvation of sinners as a whole. Since men are unable to bring themselves to the point of salvation on their own, eternally saving men falls to God. Most Reformed hold to the existence of an eternal Divine decree which, antecedently to any difference or deficit in men themselves, separates the human race into two portions, the eternally saved and eternally unsaved.

"Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace" - Westminster Confession

 

[Thursday]

I had expected the response to be Preservation of the Saints. Just like any point of the five, it relies on understanding the others four as it relates to the salvation of sinners as a whole. Since men are unable to bring themselves to the point of salvation on their own, eternally saving men falls to God. Most Reformed hold to the existence of an eternal Divine decree which, antecedently to any difference or deficit in men themselves, separates the human race into two portions, the eternally saved and eternally unsaved.

"Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace" - Westminster Confession

That is inconsistent with scripture.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Rom 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

 

[GillDouglas]

Also, when I speak against what I believe a person thinks Calvinism is, I will try to clarify what they actually believe. But it is difficult to do that if they are insulting me all the time. For they have to realize that their belief on Calvinism is not the only one. They have to clarify their beliefs from what other people think it actually is. Insulting them for getting their belief wrong is not helpful. People are not mind readers. They do not know what you believe. That is part of why we are in a discussion. To discuss our beliefs.

Anyways, you are making me think more about people's beliefs and how to handle them. From now on: When I speak generally, I will say, one belief in Calvinism states.... "this and this", etc. I will also ask questions about what a person believes Calvinism to be on a particular matter before I speak out against it with them. Now, granted, this does not mean that once I clarified their beliefs, I cannot point out how it is wrong, etc. Like I said, pointing out to someone how a belief in jumping off a cliff because they do not think gravity exists is not a wrong thing to do. It only becomes wrong if I call them stupid for believing such a thing, or if I accuse them falsely of other things as a result.

...

What point do you hope to make or goal achieved by continually trying to refute ones eternal salvation? Your major point has been that because we believe our salvation is secure, we can go about living a sinful and careless lifestyle. As many have tried to explain, this is impossible for anyone who has been truly transformed by the Holy Spirit. So you can go about your ministry knowing that even if a man doesn't share your same theological standings, if he belongs to Him, He will live for Him.

Why continue to drive wedges between brothers? You're no better off making fun of Pentecostals for speaking in tongues. Stick with the Gospel, preach the love of God.

 

[GillDouglas]

That is inconsistent with scripture.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Rom 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

I reply in kind:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24)

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:21)

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:3)

 

[sdowney717]

That is inconsistent with scripture.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Rom 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

1 Peter 1:17, does not speak against election unto salvation, obviously the ones calling on the Father are already Christians, so the judgement of the works they do are for rewards, not salvation.
The Matt 7 verses, speak of the elect who do the will of the Father.
Romans 2, speaks again of the elect who have had the circumcision of the heart not done with human hands, if you read on down to the end of the chapter you would see that.

 

[Thursday]

I reply in kind:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24)

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:21)

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:3)

Romans 9 is about our lot in life, not eternal damnation or salvation.

Essau was a man of God who forgave his brother. There is nothing in the bible to indicate he lost his soul. He lost his earthly inheritance.

God knows who will follow his will. We don't. God has foreknowledge of our actions.

God saves those who cooperate with his grace, which has appeared to ALL men.


I find it amusing that you ignore the explicit words of scripture and grasp at obscure passages to make your point.

 

[Thursday]

1 Peter 1:17, does not speak against election unto salvation, obviously the ones calling on the Father are already Christians, so the judgement of the works they do are for rewards, not salvation.
The Matt 7 verses, speak of the elect who do the will of the Father.
Romans 2, speaks again of the elect who have had the circumcision of the heart not done with human hands, if you read on down to the end of the chapter you would see that.

Peter tells us that God judges each man impartially. That is a direct contradiction of Calvinism.

Matt 7 tells us that our actions impact our salvation. You are adding words to the verse that aren't there.

Romans 2 speaks of ALL men. Where do you come up with this garbage?

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 9 is about our lot in life, not eternal damnation or salvation.

Essau was a man of God who forgave his brother. There is nothing in the bible to indicate he lost his soul. He lost his earthly inheritance.

God knows who will follow his will. We don't. God has foreknowledge of our actions.

God saves those who cooperate with his grace, which has appeared to ALL men.


I find it amusing that you ignore the explicit words of scripture and grasp at obscure passages to make your point.

Esau was a 'profane man' as the scripture describes Esau.
I find it continually amazing how opposite minded people are when it comes to scripture.
They see black and call it white etc...
Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Hebrews 12:16
lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

Profane is defined as "Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred. " esau was ungodly person yet you say a man of God. You are profane yourself if you twist the word like you do.

 

[Thursday]

Esau was a 'profane man' as the scripture describes Esau.
I find it continually amazing how opposite minded people are when it comes to scripture.
They see black and call it white etc...
Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Hebrews 12:16
lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

Profane is defined as "Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred. " esau was ungodly person yet you say a man of God. You are profane yourself if you twist the word like you do.

Gen 33
4But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.

Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”

6Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. 7Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.

8Esau asked, “What’s the meaning of all these flocks and herds I met?”

“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

9But Esau said, “I already have plenty, my brother. Keep what you have for yourself.”

10“No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably. 11Please accept the present that was brought to you, for God has been gracious to me and I have all I need.” And because Jacob insisted, Esau accepted it.

12Then Esau said, “Let us be on our way; I’ll accompany you.”

13But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are tender and that I must care for the ewes and cows that are nursing their young. If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die. 14So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the flocks and herds before me and the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”

15Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.”

 

[ToBeLoved]

But Jesus said we shall know false prophets by their fruit. Jesus said there will be those who will speak all manner of evil against you falsely. In my experience, insults (like calling me wolf, Jason666, etc. on another forum), being banned (without a good cause), speak falsely against me in what I actually said, not willing to make peace (in some cases), and having hateful behavior are usually the norm when I have talked with OSAS proponents over the many years even though I have not attacked them on a personal level. Also, God and His Word are each both a truth. Just as the laws of physics are a truth. If somebody comes up with a false idea concerning the laws of physics and they believe it, my attacking such a false belief concerning the laws of physics is not a personal matter because it is an idea that everyone can either accept or reject. Something personal would be like a person's name, their weight, their background, their love life, their personal walk with God, their hair color, their preference for certain foods, their hobbies, etc. It would be something personal that would identify them as a unique individual. God's truth is true no matter if people accept it or not. The laws of physics are true no matter if someone accepts such a truth or not. The length of the highest mountain is true whether a person accepts that truth or not. People arguing over the length of the highest mountain does not actually change the true length and it has nothing to do with their peronal life that makes them a unique individual.

But surely you cannot think it is wrong to attack a belief. For Peter, James, and Paul alll had attacked false beliefs. However, they did not teach to attack or insult people as a way of God. On the contrary, Jesus said pray for your enemies. Do good unto them that despitefully use you. Paul says be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Paul says our conversation should always be full of grace seasoned with salt. Jesus says a man brings forth whatever is in his heart.


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The big difference though Jason is when someone teaches. When someone teaches or goes out of their way to position their theology in a place where it influences many (not just the responders to the thread, but all who will read it over time) then if someone preaches a false gospel that is an issue. There is a certain responsibility in doing that.

One can give their opinion in a way of saying this is what I believe or they can choose to set themselves up as an expert that really knows God's Word. When the last is done, if the person does not rightfully divide the Word then as servants of Christ people are going to get upset. Not because you are swaying their opinion, but because there are those who are very suseptible to look for teachers and believe that teaching.


That is more my issue with it anyways. Not for me, I know the Word, but for the babes in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

sdowney717 said: ↑
I like being a purchased possession.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

What are the conditions of having the seal or in being sealed according to God's Word?

"Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness." (2 Timothy 2:19). (New American Standard Bible)....

Let's stay within context, ok?

The condition for the sealing with the Holy Spirit of Eph 1:13 and 14 was clearly stated: "in whom also, having believed, you WERE SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE. OK now, does God ever break any of His promises? That would be equal to lying, which God cannot do.

v.14 tells us the purpose of this sealing: "the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the REDEMPTION of the purchased possession".

However, 2 Tim 2:19 does not support your notions of sinless perfection. We are to abstain from wickedness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What point do you hope to make or goal achieved by continually trying to refute ones eternal salvation? Your major point has been that because we believe our salvation is secure, we can go about living a sinful and careless lifestyle. As many have tried to explain, this is impossible for anyone who has been truly transformed by the Holy Spirit. So you can go about your ministry knowing that even if I man doesn't share your same theological standings, if he belongs to Him, He will live for Him.

Why continue to drive wedges between brothers? You're no better off making fun of Pentecostals for speaking in tongues. Stick with the Gospel, preach the love of God.

Most every OSAS proponent that I know of denies Sinless Perfectionism and or that one can stop sinning in this life. Based on denying this teaching alone one is guilty before God because this type of believer is forced to willingly admitting that they will sin at some point in the future (Whether it be sin done on occasion with them confessing of it or whether it be a lot of sin that goes unconfessed). The result is still the same because there is no real turning away from sin. Also, God cannot condone their mental attitude that they will sin again (with Him thinking it is okay) because He is a holy and just who wants us to be perfect and holy. One cannot be perfect and holy if they are admiting they will be a slave to their sin over the rest of their life.

What is the analogy or real world example? Again, it would be like an alcoholic who claims he is sober and yet he admits he will never be able to overcome his addiction to alcohol. It is a defeatist attitude. God is not into His people being a conquered people to sin. God can conquer any problem in our life (Especially any or all sin).

Another analogy would be like a murderer claiming he is good now just because he currently admits that he will only murder on occasion over the rest of his life as long as he confesses it to God. But it doesn't work like that. There has to be an actual change in a person's life to show that they are indeed born again; And we have to have faith and believe God and His Word that He will give us the victory over our sin, too.


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[GillDouglas]

You say that God doesn't show any favoritism:

Peter tells us that God judges each man impartially. That is a direct contradiction of Calvinism.

Then you say He saves those who do the right thing:

God saves those who cooperate with his grace, which has appeared to ALL men

But truthfully, it is that "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" and "these whom He predestined, He also called","in order to make known the riches of His glory for the objects of mercy"

Point being, it's all about Him, not you or me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For those who subscribe to the idea that Christ only died for the sins up to one's faith in Christ, and after that, all sin must be confessed and forsaken, otherwise they lose their salvation.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Greek word for "once for all" - ephapax
1) once, at once
1a) all at once
1b) once for all

The word for "have been made holy " is a perfect passive participle. Perfect tense means occurrence in the past with PRESENT results. ie, once "made holy" we continue to be holy.

Greek word for "holy" is: hagiazō
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

When one believes in Christ, they are sanctified or dedicated/consecrated/purified internally to God.

So, the notion that sin separates the one already sanctified/purified/etc for eternal death is nonsense.

So, let's continue to examine the Truth:
v.12 - But when this priest (Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Greek word for "for all time" is: diēnekes
1) continuously, continuous

My Interlinear Bible renders the word "in perpetuity". My lexicon renders the word "extended, prolonged, continuous, perpetually".

So v.12 shows that Christ's sacrifice continues perpetually.

v.18 - And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Quite clear; Christ's sacrifice covers all sin. Not just sin up to when one believes.

This is specifically addressed by John the baptist in Jn 1:29, when he said - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

If Christ's death covers ONLY sins up to the time of faith in Christ, then John's comment is quite wrong. He should and would have said that the Lamb of God takes away some of the sin of the world.

It should be clear that Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all sins of all people for all time.

 

[GillDouglas]

Most here deny Sinless Perfectionism and or that one can stop sinning in this life. Based on denying this teaching alone one is guilty before God because this type of believer is forced to willingly admitting that they will sin at some point in the future (Whether it be sin done on occasion with them confessing of it or whether it be a lot of sin that goes unconfessed). The result is still the same because there is no real turning away from sin. Also, God cannot condone their mental attitude that they will sin again (with Him thinking it is okay) because He is a holy and just God who wants us to be perfect and holy. One cannot be perfect and holy if they are admiting they will be a slave to their sin over the rest of their life.

What is the analogy or real world example? Again, it would be like an alcoholic who claims he is sober and yet he admits he will never be able to overcome his addiction to alcohol. It is a defeatist attitude. God is not into His people being a conquered people to sin. God can conquer any problem in our life (Especially any or all sin).

...

For us to deny your teaching on becoming sinless in this life does not make us any more (or less) guilty before God than your denying our teaching of eternal security. Again, you're trying to stand upon a pillar of your false teachings and judge those who will not follow them. Please step down, and move on.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Most every OSAS proponent that I know of denies Sinless Perfectionism and or that one can stop sinning in this life. Based on denying this teaching alone one is guilty before God because this type of believer is forced to willingly admitting that they will sin at some point in the future (Whether it be sin done on occasion with them confessing of it or whether it be a lot of sin that goes unconfessed).

Even though you don't admit that you will continue to sin, you've already admitted that you still do. So what's the difference?

And, should you ever actually achieve sinless perfection, THEN 1 Jn 1:8 will DIRECTLY refute your claim.

So it is clear that your goal is to achieve something that will place you in DIRECT CONTRADICTION with Scripture.

Sure you've really thought all this stuff through?

The result is still the same because there is no real turning away from sin. Also, God cannot condone their mental attitude that they will sin again (with Him thinking it is okay)

Why do you continue to persist this all these LIES? No one thinks it's OK with God when we sin. No one. So STOP making up these LIES.