Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Just making sure you weren't a Molinist.



No one here teaches such a thing. is that what your source on Calvinism claims? They don't know what they're talking about.
Unless God intervenes in a man's life, that man will continue on in sin for one simple reason: he WANTS to!



He doesn't choose to save anyone based on something within them, because there is nothing in them that merits salvation. so your point falls flat and fails.



Jason, you have no clue as to what I believe, really. You have made it clear that you do not understand what you think to speak against. Your source of information about Calvinism and Calvinists is seriously flawed and faulty. It is leading you into ever greater error.

You are sinfully trying to apply your false notions to us, as though they were true. Several have asked you to stop doing that. I am asking you once again to stop it. Do NOT attmept to tell calvinists here what they believe, because you have no correct knowledge about what they believe. Your cluelessness only hurts your cause, and in doing it, you are sinning against the others in this forum. Knock. it. Off!

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Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true. But my expressing as to the motivations behind why someone would believe in Calvinism is based on the problem of the doctrine itself. Granted, I imagine there may be other reasons that may motivate a person to believe in Calvinism. I am certainly not denying that at all.

...

 

[nobdysfool]

Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true. But my expressing as to the motivations behind why someone would believe in Calvinism is based on the problem of the doctrine itself. Granted, I imagine there may be other reasons that may motivate a person to believe in Calvinism. I am certainly not denying that at all. ...

But you have demonstrated clearly that you don't KNOW what Calvinism teaches. You keep acting as though you do, and the Calvinists here are telling you that what you say is not true, AND YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN!!!!

You are misrepresenting Calvinism. You do not KNOW it. You have zero authority to speak about it. Capice?


.

 

[nobdysfool]

Speaking about motives behind things is way above your pay grade. You do not know others' motives. Quit acting as though you do.

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[ToBeLoved]

Jesus never told us to breath oxygen, that doesn't mean we don't do so. But again, the Bible says we are to be imitators of Christ and we know there was a spiritual benefit in using parables.

...

Jesus was reaching them spiritual things they wouldn't have otherwise understood.

Jesus told them He would have shown them the mysteries if heaven, but they were not spiritual enough to understand. So Jesus taught them what they could understand.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true. But my expressing as to the motivations behind why someone would believe in Calvinism is based on the problem of the doctrine itself. Granted, I imagine there may be other reasons that may motivate a person to believe in Calvinism. I am certainly not denying that at all.

...

Isn't. It odd that people keep telling you the same things.?

Could be the Holy Spirit talking through us.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true.....................

It is true.

I, for one, don't have a particular problem with your believing that Godly men can get to a point in their lives where they do not sin consciously. They will not be perfect, of course. If that were the case they would not die.

Our entire being is saturated with sin. We cannot rid ourselves of it's effect completely. That is clear.

But perhaps a good man should be able to reach a point where he does not at least sin consciously. If that were your only point there would be little problem with you - at least from me.

But you go well beyond that don't you?

You link that particular debatable doctrine with a very clear stance that says that a person who sins and does not repent quick enough and dies in that sin will be disowned by God and no longer be a Son of God.

Your doctrine is not only about potential perfectionism. Your doctrine is not only about wanting everyone to be the best they can be.

Your doctrine is about the condemnation of everyone who does not live up to your standard. Your doctrine is about condemning everyone who does not see the scriptures exactly the same as you do by branding them as "anti-nomians".

Your doctrine is all about a different gospel which is not good news at all. Your "gospel" starts with people receiving forgiveness and becoming children of God and then it morphs into a gospel which has God going back on His word to believers and casting them into the lake of fire.

When people here say that you believe in a works salvation they are simply commenting on the absolute truth of the matter according to your own words.

...............................I imagine there may be other reasons that may motivate a person to believe in Calvinism. I am certainly not denying that at all. ..

That reason is that they desire to be true to what they see taught in the scriptures. There is, IMO, no other motive.

Calvinists are currently in the very very small minority within Christianity. It would be a lot easier to just go along with the majority concerning the sovereignty of God in salvation. But they cannot and will not simply because it would violate their conscience.

Because they will not go against what they feel the scriptures teach - they are subject to having you misrepresent their beliefs here in order to vilify them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you have demonstrated clearly that you don't KNOW what Calvinism teaches. You keep acting as though you do, and the Calvinists here are telling you that what you say is not true, AND YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN!!!!

You are misrepresenting Calvinism. You do not KNOW it. You have zero authority to speak about it. Capice?

.

Not at all. I have talked with Calvinists for many years and I know what they believe. Also, not all Calvinists believe the same thing, too. There are different levels of Calvinism. Here are 6 different versions of Calvinism that I have heard about before (that is taken from a source on the internet):

1. Hyper-Calvinism: Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.

2. Ultra High Calvinism: Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well– Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America

3. High Calvinism: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink

4. Moderate Calvinism: Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney

5. Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

6. Lutheranism: Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt

Note: Gordon Clark holds to God being the "author" of sin. Many in #2 would hold to that as well. United Reformed Church of North America would be closer to #4.


Source:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A8G8hEKKxNVBL6xYMFRp4gQTRvvUp0YwtOWVGE7s6Ts/mobilebasic

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Isn't. It odd that people keep telling you the same things.?

Could be the Holy Spirit talking through us.

Not a chance. I believe OSAS is highly unbiblical. How so? Try making a parable out of it some time. I mean, you do not have to post it here. Make it your own personal project or mission. Try to actually do it. You will find that you cannot make a parable to show how OSAS is moral and good.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It is true.

I, for one, don't have a particular problem with your believing that Godly men can get to a point in their lives where they do not sin consciously. They will not be perfect, of course. If that were the case they would not die.

Our entire being is saturated with sin. We cannot rid ourselves of it's effect completely. That is clear.

But perhaps a good man should be able to reach a point where he does not at least sin consciously. If that were your only point there would be little problem with you - at least from me.

But you go well beyond that don't you?

You link that particular debatable doctrine with a very clear stance that says that a person who sins and does not repent quick enough and dies in that sin will be disowned by God and no longer be a Son of God.

Your doctrine is not only about potential perfectionism. Your doctrine is not only about wanting everyone to be the best they can be.

Your doctrine is about the condemnation of everyone who does not live up to your standard. Your doctrine is about condemning everyone who does not see the scriptures exactly the same as you do by branding them as "anti-nomians".

Your doctrine is all about a different gospel which is not good news at all. Your "gospel" starts with people receiving forgiveness and becoming children of God and then it morphs into a gospel which has God going back on His word to believers and casting them into the lake of fire.

When people here say that you believe in a works salvation they are simply commenting on the absolute truth of the matter according to your own words.

That reason is that they desire to be true to what they see taught in the scriptures. There is, IMO, no other motive.

Calvinists are currently in the very very small minority within Christianity. It would be a lot easier to just go along with the majority concerning the sovereignty of God in salvation. But they cannot and will not simply because it would violate their conscience.

Because they will not go against what they feel the scriptures teach - they are subject to having you misrepresent their beliefs here in order to vilify them.

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

As for the rest of what you had written: Sorry, I started to read the beginning of your post and I could not bring myself to read anymore.

Anyways, please be well on taking your break, my friend.
And may God bless you.


....

 

[Job8]

Granted, I imagine there may be other reasons that may motivate a person to believe in Calvinism.

It would appear that Calvinists have a very difficult time believing the fundamental fact that God's grace extends to absolutely every human being. In other words, they have put God in a box, so they prattle on about Divine sovereignty, because it is too scary to believe in unlimited grace.

Here's what the Westminster Confession states:
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels 70 are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.71
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.72

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was reaching them spiritual things they wouldn't have otherwise understood.

Jesus told them He would have shown them the mysteries if heaven, but they were not spiritual enough to understand. So Jesus taught them what they could understand.

Actually, one of the major reasons Jesus used parables was that the mysteries of the Kingdom was not given to unbelievers but to believers.

In other words, parables were a blessing to those who were able to actually hear and understand them. However, for the unbeliever who could not understand them it stood before them as a device for both judgment and mercy.

For the Canaanite woman was blessed by using a parable of her own with Jesus. For her daughter was healed and Jesus said she had great faith. This was all because she used a parable that expounded upon the parable Jesus gave her.

Imagine the type of miracles or blessings in your life could take place if you decided to make a truthful and honest parable amongst the brethren.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It would appear that Calvinists have a very difficult time believing the fundamental fact that God's grace extends to absolutely every human being. In other words, they have put God in a box, so they prattle on about Divine sovereignty, because it is too scary to believe in unlimited grace.

Here's what the Westminster Confession states:
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels 70 are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.71
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.72

Let us pray for them, my friend.
And do good in return at every opportunity, as well.


...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So the Canaanite woman was able to do something we are not able to do? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, we are supposed to imitate Christ. Jesus told parables so only his disciples could hear him. This means we can do the same amongst each other. Besides, even if the parables were an exclusive thing Jesus did alone (which is not true), we see a pattern of truth that is repeatable that can in turn be copied. We see Jesus compare something that is true in the real world that we would be familiar which parallels or relates to a spiritual truth.

...

You didn't answer my question.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Not a chance. I believe OSAS is highly unbiblical. How so? Try making a parable out of it some time. I mean, you do not have to post it here. Make it your own personal project or mission. Try to actually do it. You will find that you cannot make a parable to show how OSAS is moral and good.


....

This is the litmus test for truth?! Jason, your views are far from orthodox, and if everyone accuses you of holding to a works righteousness, then you are certainly standing on unsafe ground.

One evidence that you hold to the gospel (rather than works) is that you are accused of just the opposite. When Paul preached the gospel his accusers said that he was teaching lawlessness (Romans 3:8). After hearing Paul's message, they accused him of the exact opposite of what people here accuse you of. Think about it. . .

 

[nobdysfool]

Not at all. I have talked with Calvinists for many years and I know what they believe. Also, not all Calvinists believe the same thing, too. There are different levels of Calvinism. Here are 6 different versions of Calvinism that I have heard about before (that is taken from a source on the internet):

1. Hyper-Calvinism: Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.

2. Ultra High Calvinism: Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well– Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America

3. High Calvinism: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink

4. Moderate Calvinism: Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney

5. Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

6. Lutheranism: Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt

Note: Gordon Clark holds to God being the "author" of sin. Many in #2 would hold to that as well. United Reformed Church of North America would be closer to #4.


Source:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A8G8hEKKxNVBL6xYMFRp4gQTRvvUp0YwtOWVGE7s6Ts/mobilebasic

An interesting, but inaccurate list. The proof that you don't KNOW Calvinism is the appeal to a source that is designed around the premise that "Calvinism must be wrong, and here's why." Study the doctrine itself. A good place to start would be the Canons of Dort, and the Westminster Confession. That's where you will get it straight from its original sources. I'll bet you won't. And you will need to approach the study with an open mind, and asking the Holy Spirit to inform and enlighten you. Again, I'm betting you won't. Why? You're afraid that you might find out that you've been wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You didn't answer my question.

Did Jesus answer everyone? No. Did Jesus always give a straight or direct answer to everyone so that they would understand? No. Anyways, I believe my answer is the solution to your question in an indirect way. You are seeking for a specific command in order for their to be some kind of approval to do so. I believer there is a command that would cover us using parables, but it is not the "hit you over the head" type command you are probably looking for.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Speaking about motives behind things is way above your pay grade. You do not know others' motives. Quit acting as though you do.

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With so many varied beliefs within Calvinism, I do not believe I am off in every case. Again, you have to understand the principle of how things work. For example: Let's just say you are wrong (even though you think you right). If you are wrong, that means you are taking away man's responsibility in accepting the gospel (if you are wrong). So if I believe my position on the Scriptures is correct (and my position is indeed true), then the Calvinist is taking away the responsibilty out of accepting the gospel out of the hands of men. The gospel then becomes something God must do despite the Command Jesus gave us concerning the Great Commission. In fact, we know not every church follows Jesus correctly. The report card Jesus gave to the various churches in Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 lets us know this and Jesus tells even one church to repent or they will go thru the Tribulation.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

An interesting, but inaccurate list. The proof that you don't KNOW Calvinism is the appeal to a source that is designed around the premise that "Calvinism must be wrong, and here's why." Study the doctrine itself. A good place to start would be the Canons of Dort, and the Westminster Confession. That's where you will get it straight from its original sources. I'll bet you won't. And you will need to approach the study with an open mind, and asking the Holy Spirit to inform and enlighten you. Again, I'm betting you won't. Why? You're afraid that you might find out that you've been wrong.

That's like asking me to study the Watch Tower tracts to make sure I get their religion right. That would be like studying the book of Mormon because they think I am not understanding them. Sorry, I see no difference between your book and theirs. The Bible should not be added to. It is sufficient all on it's own. I do not need another book or holy men to interpret the Bible for me. God leads me by His Spirit when I study His Word.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the litmus test for truth?! Jason, your views are far from orthodox, and if everyone accuses you of holding to a works righteousness, then you are certainly standing on unsafe ground.

One evidence that you hold to the gospel (rather than works) is that you are accused of just the opposite. When Paul preached the gospel his accusers said that he was teaching lawlessness (Romans 3:8). After hearing Paul's message, they accused him of the exact opposite of what people here accuse you of. Think about it. . .

Paul was addressing the issue of circumcision in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians in relation to the Law. This means the context is of the words "Law" or "works of the Law" is in reference to the Old Covenant Law or the Law of Moses. Paul is not talking about all law in general or obeying the Commands in the New Covenant. In fact, Paul himself says that what he has written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). The Scriptures DO NOT say all Law whatsoever is no more; but they say that the Law has simply changed (Hebrews 7:12). Anyways, Paul's intended first readers (the Galatians and the Romans) were not simply obeying the New Covenant. Again, their problem was that some of them were being deceived by Jews to go back into obeying certain aspects of the Old Law like circumcision. I mean, just read thru Romans 3 again. It is talking about how BOTH Jews and Gentiles are under sin and can come to Christ equally. The Jews and their traditions and keeping of the Old Law is what is in view here. For the Jews were slandering them in the fact that the New Covenant believer was not doing what the Jews were doing. They said that what the New Covenant believer was doing was evil. In no way was Paul pushing a doctrine of immorality here (or a sin and still be saved gospel). Read Romans 6. Paul makes that fact very clear that he is not pushing such a concept. He says, shall we continue in sin so that grace may about? He says, "God forbid." Meaning, you cannot sin so that grace may abound! For if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). But... "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousnes." (1 John 1:9). "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13).

In fact, we know that the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is still binding for the believer today. How so? Paul essentially says, "if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

In other words, any time a believer today says they will forever abide in their sin on some level is pushing a doctrine of UN-Godliness because it is making an allowance for sin when the Scriptures teach that one can overcome sin by the Sanctification process.

...

 

[Marvin Knox]

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.....

Whether it is your own good works alone or yielding to the Spirit - you still base salvation on human works. Nothing is changed by what you said and listed in your post.

As for the rest of what you had written: Sorry, I started to read the beginning of your post and I could not bring myself to read anymore.

Sorry - but I doubt very much that you didn't read the rest of it.

But I can see why you didn't digest it. I believe that you were likely convicted by the Holy Spirit and ran from His conviction like a scalded cat.

Anyways, please be well on taking your break, my friend.
And may God bless you. ....

Adding a little something like this at the end of every post does not negate the harm that you are doing here.