Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Stop and think for a moment. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Eternal life here is a spiritual thing because it is talking about how it does not abide in this particular individual. So spiritual death and life is the context of John's epistle.


....

How about I put your out of context verse into context for you.

1 John 3:15
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


I think that makes it pretty clear what the verses are about. Glad I could help you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe and understand the Bible just fine. Thank you for the insult. I will rejoice in God my Savior.....

All your claims of answering my questions previously are not true. You haven't, or I wouldn't have kept asking the questions. Duh!

I was seriously seeking answers to the questions that your peculiar theology beg. But I see you're not really interested in answering. OK.

So, there is just one more question for you. Why do you reject 1 John 1:8?
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

This verse refutes your entire theology.

The verb tense for "deceive" is present tense. Not something we did in the past. Something we do in the present WHEN we "say that we have no sin".

So, those of you who "say that you have no sin" have deceived yourselves and the truth is not in you. Clearly not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

None of this gets you off the hook you've created for yourself.

There are no contradictions in Scripture. 1:8 refutes sinless perfection, PERIOD. 2:1 is a command to avoid sin, obviously. All believers are to avoid sin. But the REASON John added 1:9 is BECAUSE we DO continue to sin and we need regular cleansing from sin.

Your view is that you have reached sinless perfection, and those believers who continue to sin have lost their salvation. But 1 Jn 1:8 refutes that completely.

As to 2:4, it points out that believers who don't keep God's commandments are liars and the truth is not in them, just like the believer who claims sinless perfect has NO TRUTH in him either.

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even one of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

When ANY believer sins, they are NOT living by truth. That's what the Scripture means.

In fact, the OSAS proponent today says their sin on a spiritual level does not exist for them because it has been forgiven (Past, present, and future).

Please prove your silly claim here about what OSAS proponents say about their sin being on a "spiritual level". That is idiotic.

The OSAS proponent also says 1 John 1:9 does not apply to forgiveness of sin in relation to salvation, either.

Correct. Because the subject of ch 1 is fellowship, NOT relationship.

Yet, the true believer admits their sin and knows they are forgiven of sin if they confess it. The true believer does not ignore sin if it arises in their life (Because they confess it so as to be forgiven).

I've proven the error of your thinking here from 1 Thess 5:4-11, with emphasis on v.10.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And a person can fall into unbelief. For believers are told this in Hebrews 4:11,

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief"

Hebrews 10:38 says something similar,

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

But true intimacy in relationship can only be gained by knowing that person. If a believer does not come to have an intimate fellowship with Christ and know Him, then they do not have salvation. It's why Christ also says, "to depart from me. I never knew you." Also, if a marriage is unfaithful in any way, then it is no longer a marriage as God intended it to be. Marriage is about loving your spouse as Christ loves the church. Also, it is not coincidence that "knowing" is also referred to the act of physical intimacy, as well. This act is a symbol or picture of the two couples becoming one flesh (Which is a parallel of bride of Christ and God joining together in intimate fellowship).

No. It says any man does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. It does not say believers are an exception to the rule here. Any man who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. It means what it says.

2 Samuel 7:15 says God took away his mercy from Saul. If this was referring to only physical death, you would think God's Word would have mentioned it here at some point. So no. Those who go a whoring from God will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. For it is why God will cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness. It is why Christ says to a group who thinks they are believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin).

No. In Matthew 7, Jesus says we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit. Fruit are deeds.

No. 1 John 1:7 says we are actually cleansed of all sin by walking in the light as he is in the light. The alternative parallel that John makes to this verse is 1 John 1:6 that says, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth" This is the same thing that is roughly said in 1 John 2:4. For it says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Scripture says, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

No. Israel was cut off because of their unbelief. The same warning is given to us, as well.

"thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou ALSO shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22). Who was cut of before? Israel was cut off because of their unbelief. They rejected their own Messiah. So the Gentiles were then given the opportunity for salvation because Christ said go out into all the world and preach the gospel to ALL nations.

Granted, this does not mean Jews or Israelites cannot be saved. It is merely saying that God's plan of salvation now has shifted to directly draw all men unto Christ now. Whereas before in the OT, the Israelites were supposed to be a light to the rest of the world. Now, all people can come directly to Christ.....

Your view is that if a believer sins, he loses salvation. Apparently when he confesses that sin, he is restored to salvation again.

So, your view of salvation is a yo-yo theology. Saved, lost, saved, lost.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn 1:8

This verse refutes your yo-yo.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.

Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used."

How quickly people who can't defend their own opinions and assumptions ignore challenges to prove their position.

Paul spoke in the present tense in Romans 7, where he described his struggle with his own sin nature. I recommend that you read it.

I was agreeing with you.

My comments were directed to Jason. My apologies, as I have been in total agreement with your posts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How about I put your out of context verse into context for you.

1 John 3:15
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


I think that makes it pretty clear what the verses are about. Glad I could help you.

First, you act like I have not read this epistle before. Second, I do not see how these other verses change what 1 John 3:15 says plainly. You offered no explanation. Let me tell you what they are saying. But let's go back a little more to get the complete context here.

1 John 2:29 says he that does righteousness is born of Him.​

This is how we tell a false prophet from a true one. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. So it makes sense that he that performs or does righteousness is born of God.

1 John 3:3 says, every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.​

Jesus says, be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. We know that every man that has the true of hope that is Jesus Christ purifies themselves in holiness and does not remain in their sins as a part of their old life. This meaks sense because Paul essentially says we used to be sinners as a part of our old life but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Ephesians 4:17-27) (Colossians 3:5-10). For the Scriptures say without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

1 John 3:6 says, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.​

The Antinomian or OSAS interpretation that says "all sin is paid for past, present, and future" does not work with 1 John 3:6. To say that whoever abides in Christ does not sin on a spiritual level (Because sin was is paid for) does not jive with what the second half of the verse say which says, "whosever sins has not seen him, neither knows him." This makes sense because the believers who will face Jesus in Matthew 7 in the future will be surprised to hear the words from Christ telling them to depart from him because he did not know them because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin). In other words, in Matthew 7:26-27 Jesus likens the one who hears Jesus's words and does them not as a foolish man who has built his house upon the sand whereby when the storm and the floods came, the fall of that house was great (i.e. house being represented of God's temple, i.e. the believer).

1 John 3:7 says, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.​

Most in the Antinomian or OSAS camp love to push the idea of imputed righteousness way past the point of it's true purpose. They believe Christ's imputed righteousness extends to cover their sins that they have not even committed yet. That confession of sin and forsaking sin is not necessary so as to gain entrance into God's Kingdom. However, the real Imputed righteousness of Christ only applies if we agree with God's plan of salvation by submitting to the Lord. This is not just a one time act of obeying God once but it is a continued obedience to the Lord. How so? 1 John 3:7 refutes such thinking. It says he that does righteousness is righteous. In fact, John says not to be deceived on such a matter.

1 John 3:8 says, He that committs sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

1 John 3:8 lays to rest all Antinomian claims that they can sin and still be saved. The verse says clearly that he that commits sin is of the devil. This lines up nicely with what John says elsewhere, when he said in John 3:20, "everyone that does evil hates the light." We also learn in this verse that the reason why Christ came down in the flesh was so that He could destroy the works of the devil. This would not only be at the cross but it would also include Christ destroying the works of the devil (i.e. sin) in a person's life, too. For it is the Lord that lives in a believer working of His good will and pleasure in their life.

1 John 3:9 says, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

Does 1 John 3:9 mean that all who are born of God does not commit sin? Well, yes and no. First, the answer to that question would be a "no" in the sense that no man of God has never sinned whatsoever since being a believer. For the Scriptures record great men of God having sinned. We seen David, and Peter sin in Scripture. However, what sets them a part from others, though? Did they remain in their sins as a way of life with no desire to call out to God for forgiveness? No. Did they refuse to live a holy life over their entire life in being a believer? No.

Second, the answer to the question: "Do all who are born of God do not commit sin?" would be a "yes" in the sense that a believer does not live in sin day in and day out. This runs contrast to those other believers out who live a wicked and sinful life and do not see that confessing and forsaking sin as a means of obtaining God's mercy. This is wrong. However, the true believer is not characterized by a life of sin, though. Looking at a believer's life should let us know that they are holy and separate from the rest of the world. For a believer cannot sin day in and day out without confessing and forsaking sin. For all who have this hope purifies himself (1 John 3:3).

1 John 3:10 says, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.​

Here is the real test! The children of God versus the children of the devil are shown for the true colors in this verse. Any person who does not righteousness is not of God. Anyone who does not love his brother is not of God. This means what it says. There is no room for making any additions or exceptions to what this verse says. It is clear. If one does not love, or of if one does not live righteously, they are not of God. This makes sense, because God's people would naturally be characterized by a life of goodness and holiness (Which is a reflection of God who lives in them).

1 John 3:11 says, For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.​

Jesus says the greatest of the Commandments is to love (Which hangs all the Law and the prophets). The first greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. We are actually commanded to do that. Imagine that? The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. For Paul says loving your neighbor fuflils the Law. For by doing so you will not murder, commit adultery, steal, or lie to others.

1 John 3:12 says, Not as Cain,who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.​

Now, here we see Cain mentioned as the contrast polar opposite in loving others. Cain murdered his brother instead of loving him. For why did Cain murder his brother? The verse says that Cain's works were evil and that his brother Abel's works were righteous. Cain had chosen a path of darkness that led to bad fruit in his life.

1 John 3:13 says, Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.​

All who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution. Are you being persecuted by the world because you are living Godly? This should be a natural thing if we are living the Christian life. For we are not to be surprised that the world hates us. Matthew 10:22 says, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" What does the believer endures in? Their faith (of course). We have to endure in our faith to the end. This is not a demon belief type faith that is devoid of works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Anyways, getting back on track, all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). This is why Cain slew his brother. This is why men will speak all manner of evil against true believers (Matthew 5:11). I mean, take a step back and look at your so called brothers and sisters actions in how they treat others. Are they truly being loving towards others? Or do they accuse others falsely or speak in a way that is overtly cruel and mean? Does such actions in their life sound like they are of God according to His Word? Well, the Bible says, he that does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

1 John 3:14 says, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.​

Okay. I see no OSAS in 1 John 3:14. In fact, on the contrary it says we have passed from spiritual death and move unto spiritual life because of what reason? It says we passed from death to life BECAUSE we love the brethren. This is a condition. We have to love our brother in order to pass from death to life. For he that does not love his brother abides in death. This is spiritual death and not physical death because the context says we pass from death to life when we love the brethren.

1 John 3:15 says, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.​

Here we see the Cain analogy drawn in here. He hates his brother is a murderer. But then this verse really lays out clearly for us. It says he that is a murderer (i.e. he that hates his brother) has no eternal life abiding in them. Are you loving your brother today? Or are you hating your brother? Well, the Bible says hating your brother is the equivalent of being a murderer; And the Bible says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. This means what it says at face value.

Nowhere in this chapter or this epistle is it talking about physical life and physical death here; And we learn that loving the brethren is the CONDITION of passing from death to life. This would obviously be more than just loving your brother once. One has to continually keep loving the brethren as a way of life. How do we love the brethren? The next two verses tell us.

1 John 3:16-17 says, Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?​

We are to lay down our lives for the brethren just as Christ laid down his life for us. For if we have this world's goods and we see our brother in need and we withhold from them in being compassionate upon them, then how does the love of God abide in us? Can a person be saved without the love of God abiding in them? No. 1 John 3:10 already says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your view is that if a believer sins, he loses salvation. Apparently when he confesses that sin, he is restored to salvation again.

So, your view of salvation is a yo-yo theology. Saved, lost, saved, lost.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn 1:8

This verse refutes your yo-yo.

No. 1 John 1:8 must be read in context of 1 John 2:1 that tells us to "sin not." 1 John 1:8 must also be read in context to 1 John 2:3-4 that says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

Okay. Stop and think for a moment. According to 1 John 2:4 (shown above), is the truth in you if you are not keeping His Commandments?
Furthermore, 1 John 2:4 also says that one is a liar if they say they know Him and are not keeping His commandments, too. This is a problem because Scripture says that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

Anyways, 1 John 1:8 is a warning against those who were falsely trying to seduce the brethren (See 1 John 2:26). Those who were trying to seduce the brethren thought that sin did not exist for them. This is similar to the OSAS belief today. They believe sin exists physically, but they do not believe sin exists spiritually for the believer because they hold to the erronous belief that their sin was paid for past, present, and future. They have no sin spiritually (Which is a violation of 1 John 1:8). For the very next verse tell us what to do if we are to sin. 1 John 1:9 tells us to confess our sin in order to be forgiven of sin. We are not just automatically forgiven of sin. Plus, John leaves no room or exuses for us to remain in our sin because he then follows up with telling us to: "sin not" (1 John 2:1).

As for your second point on how a believer cannot be unsaved: Well, we know from Scripture that there are those individuals who are TWICE DEAD plucked up by the roots (Jude 1:12). Meaning, these are individuals who have died spiritually twice. Such words should not exist in the Bible if OSAS were true.

Side Note:

Also, I do not see "Sinless Perfectionism" as being the problem in John's epistle which would be your argument for 1 John 1:8. On the contrary, John is arguing for the believer to: "sin not." John is saying he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your view is that if a believer sins, he loses salvation. Apparently when he confesses that sin, he is restored to salvation again.

So, your view of salvation is a yo-yo theology. Saved, lost, saved, lost.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn 1:8

This verse refutes your yo-yo.

Let's also add the Holy Spirit to this conversation.

If one looses their salvation, as Jason says, then the Holy Spirit would come to a person at salvation and leave someone when they have unrepentant sin, then God would come back when they have repented it's a yo-yo say God himself is the yo-yo that goes back-and-forth.

What about, to Jason the Covenant that God has sealed us w the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and that the Holy Spirit is our down payment and guarantee that we are co-heirs with Christ.

Can and would god break his covenant with us?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. 1 John 1:8 must be read in context of 1 John 2:1 that tells us to "sin not." 1 John 1:8 must also be read in context to 1 John 2:3-4 that says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

And I explained how those verses work together.

You've not shown otherwise.​

Anyways, 1 John 1:8 is a warning against those who were falsely trying to seduce the brethren (See 1 John 2:26).

No, it's NOT. Just note the FIRST PERSON pronoun "we" that John used. He was addressing his audience of believers AND included himself.

Your "analysis" is quite flawed. And self deceived, just as 1 Jn 1:8 SAYS about those who claim to be without sin (sinless perfection).

Those who were trying to seduce the brethren thought that sin did not exist for them.

Isn't that exactly your own view? That sin does not exist for you? Isn't that what sinless perfection means?? Of course it does.

As for your second point on how a believer cannot be unsaved: Well, we know from Scripture that there are those individuals who are TWICE DEAD plucked up by the roots (Jude 1:12). Meaning, these are individuals who have died spiritually twice. Such words should not exist in the Bible if OSAS were true.

No. Those were people who NEVER believed. Prove that it refers to those who have believed from the context.

Side Note:

Also, I do not see "Sinless Perfectionism" as being the problem in John's epistle which would be your argument for 1 John 1:8.

This is just more self deception. The problem isn't sinless perfection, but those who SAY they have no sin, which is sinless perfection.

That verse directly refutes your view of sinless perfection.

On the contrary, John is arguing for the believer to: "sin not." John is saying he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4)....

Yes, and those who SAY they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them either.

Scripture refutes your view.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's also add the Holy Spirit to this conversation.

If one looses their salvation, as Jason says, then the Holy Spirit would come to a person at salvation and leave someone when they have unrepentant sin, then God would come back when they have repented it's a yo-yo say God himself is the yo-yo that goes back-and-forth.

What about, to Jason the Covenant that God has sealed us w the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and that the Holy Spirit is our down payment and guarantee that we are co-heirs with Christ.

Can and would god break his covenant with us?

As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

What is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.

Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 6:11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not


Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's also add the Holy Spirit to this conversation.

If one looses their salvation, as Jason says, then the Holy Spirit would come to a person at salvation and leave someone when they have unrepentant sin, then God would come back when they have repented it's a yo-yo say God himself is the yo-yo that goes back-and-forth.

What about, to Jason the Covenant that God has sealed us w the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and that the Holy Spirit is our down payment and guarantee that we are co-heirs with Christ.

Can and would god break his covenant with us?

Excellent point, one that I have used on proponents of loss of salvation for years.

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.


So, for one to accept the view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

As Jason likes to challenge about "real world examples" to prove one's views, is this challenge to him.

Jason, provide a real world example of any believer who sinned and lost the sealing of the Holy Spirit and thereby lost salvation.

One has to do more than just claim loss of salvation. One must also prove that God breaks His promise and sealing with the Holy Spirit for one who sins.

I'd love to see the explanation in view of Eph 4:30, that says nothing about loss of salvation or breaking of the seal. Instead, EVEN IF one grieves the Holy Spirit, they are still sealed for the day of redemption.

It couldn't be more clear than that.

We know that sin grieves the Holy Spirit. Which is why we are not to sin. But even grieving the Spirit doesn't break the seal, as Jason's theology demands.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I explained how those verses work together.

You've not shown otherwise.

I must have missed the post. Please provide me a Post # or link to your post. Thank you.

​

No, it's NOT. Just note the FIRST PERSON pronoun "we" that John used. He was addressing his audience of believers AND included himself.

You believe 1 John 1:8 says "sin must be in our lives as believers" in order for us not to be a liar.
However, what John 1:8 is actually saying is not to think like the false gnostic believers who essentially were saying: "sin does not exist in our lives whatsoever as believers if we sin." But John wants us to recognize our sin by confessing it, though (1 John 1:9). John also wants us to STOP SINNING, too. How so? He says in 1 John 2:1 to "sin not." Okay, so how can you "sin not" if you also must have sin in your life in order to not be a liar? These two thoughts are directly opposed to one another.

As for the "we": Well, the warning to his brothers and sisters to not think "sin does not exist whatsoever" if they sin would also apply to John, as well.

Your "analysis" is quite flawed. And self deceived, just as 1 Jn 1:8 SAYS about those who claim to be without sin (sinless perfection).

Right. Then convince me from John's epistle itself that John is trying to refute Sinless Perfectionism then. Sorry, I just do not see that in his epistle. I see the exact opposite. 1 John 2:3-4 makes it very clear that if one says he knows him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Sounds more like Sinless Perfectionism than a denial of it.

Isn't that exactly your own view? That sin does not exist for you? Isn't that what sinless perfection means?? Of course it does.

Well, there are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. These are hidden or secret faults. So it is possible that believers can commit sins that do not lead unto death and still be saved. A Biblical example would be a believer not being baptized. For not being baptized is not a salvation issue. For Peter says baptism is not done for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. A sin that would not lead unto death would be going over the speed limit a little or not taking out the trash last week (like you were supposed to). These are not serious sins like murder, hate, theft, adultery, drunkenness, and idolatry, etc. Serious sins that lead unto spiritual death need to be confessed so as to be forgiven of such sin. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

No. Those were people who NEVER believed. Prove that it refers to those who have believed from the context.

I don't have to. The words "twice dead" does not make sense with your belief system. The book of Jude is talking spiritually about this person being "twice dead.": And a person can only be "twice dead" spiritually would mean that they were:

(a) Dead spiritually once before they came to Christ.
(b) Dead spiritually a second time (twice) after they were saved. Meaning, they died spiritually a second time as a believer when they a committed a serious sin and then refused to confess or repent of it.​

This is just more self deception. The problem isn't sinless perfection, but those who SAY they have no sin, which is sinless perfection.

That verse directly refutes your view of sinless perfection.

Verses in Scripture have to be read in context to the rest of Scripture. You are not doing that. You are pulling 1 John 1:8 out of context and making it say something that goes against the surrounding verses.

Yes, and those who SAY they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them either.

Scripture refutes your view.

Again, 1 John 1:8 is talking about the person who sins and then says they have no sin. It is not talking about how we must always be living in sin. That would run contrary to 1 John 2:1 that tells us to "sin not." That would run contrary to 1 John 2:3-4 that says we are to keep his commandments. This would run contrary to living holy as God calls us to live holy. For one cannot live in sin and also live righteously. It is an oxymoron. One is either living righteously or one is living in sin. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. We are told in Scripture to choose this day in whom we will serve. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their FRUIT. Fruit are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and vise versa.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is a proper understanding of 1 John 1:8 by looking at two different translations:

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As Jason likes to challenge about "real world examples" to prove one's views, is this challenge to him.

Jason, provide a real world example of any believer who sinned and lost the sealing of the Holy Spirit and thereby lost salvation.

One has to do more than just claim loss of salvation. One must also prove that God breaks His promise and sealing with the Holy Spirit for one who sins.

I'd love to see the explanation in view of Eph 4:30, that says nothing about loss of salvation or breaking of the seal. Instead, EVEN IF one grieves the Holy Spirit, they are still sealed for the day of redemption.

It couldn't be more clear than that.

We know that sin grieves the Holy Spirit. Which is why we are not to sin. But even grieving the Spirit doesn't break the seal, as Jason's theology demands.

Again, seals have been broken in the Bible. Even seals made by God have been broken. We see this in Revelation. The breaking of the seals which releases God's Wrath during the End Times.

We know the Spirit of God had departed from Saul and he was given an evil spirit instead.

Even the entity that spoke with Saul thru the witch had said to him that he was now God's enemy; And Saul was afraid afterwards and not comforted by the message given to him by this spirit that channeled thru a witch by means of the dark arts.

Oh, and God does not break promises in His Word. There are conditional promises in God's Word and unconditional promises. An example of an unconditional promise would be God not destroying the Earth again by a global flood. The appearance of the rainbow is a testament to this promise. An example of conditional promises would be a person has to believe in Jesus by faith in order to be saved. This is a type of faith that is defined in Hebrews 11 that is both a belief and an action. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. So if a person stops having faith, then they cannot please Him anymore. For we are saved by God's grace THRU faith. Remember, the Jews were cut off because of unbelief (Which is anti-faith).

Also, when you read Ephesians 4:30: You also have to read the rest of the Bible to get the context of that verse. As for a commentary on Ephesians 4:30, it is going to have to wait for now. I have other things I need to do today.

As for a real world example of someone falling away from their King: It happens all the time. A servant of one kingdom can choose to rebel against his king and serve another kingdom. Nowhere in life is a man kept against his will in serving one kingdom or another by some kind of seal. A servant has to desire to always want to serve their King in order to have the benefits of that Kingdom. They have to be in allegience to his king. If not, then they are no longer a part of that kingdom anymore. Pretty simple.

Yet, in your belief: You can do evil against your King and he is like totally fine with it. In fact, he is going to give you a mansion even despite any evil that you do against him and or others (that your king desires to be protected).

As for a King giving a seal to one of his servants giving him an assurance to all the spoils of war and victory (or to have a special place of honor and favor with the King): Well, this would be like a branding upon the soldier in some way. Perhaps a tatoo, a branding iron upon the flesh, or a mark or symbol upon all his exclusive clothing. A mark letting the King know his promise to the soldier that he will be rewarded and saved for the king's highest honors in the success of their Kingdom. However, that does not mean that the King will protect his servant because of this seal if his servant decides to do evil against him, though. No king in their right mind would ever allow one of his servants to do evil against him because of some seal of some good promises made to one of his fellow servants.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Besides, who has God's "seal" according to Scripture?

Those who name the name of Christ that depart from iniquity have his "seal."

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19).​

Those who labor for the food which endures unto everlasting life have this "seal" from God the Father.

"Labor not for the food which perishes, but for that food which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for on him has God the Father set his seal" (John 6:27).​

....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I must have missed the post. Please provide me a Post # or link to your post. Thank you.

From #2183:
from Jason: "When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

I responded:
"None of this gets you off the hook you've created for yourself.

There are no contradictions in Scripture. 1:8 refutes sinless perfection, PERIOD. 2:1 is a command to avoid sin, obviously. All believers are to avoid sin. But the REASON John added 1:9 is BECAUSE we DO continue to sin and we need regular cleansing from sin.

Your view is that you have reached sinless perfection, and those believers who continue to sin have lost their salvation. But 1 Jn 1:8 refutes that completely.

As to 2:4, it points out that believers who don't keep God's commandments are liars and the truth is not in them, just like the believer who claims sinless perfect has NO TRUTH in him either."

​

You believe 1 John 1:8 says "sin must be in our lives as believers" in order for us not to be a liar.

No, I don't believe that. I believe exactly what it says: those who say they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

This is a direct reference to those who claim sinless perfection.

However, what John 1:8 is actually saying is not to think like the false gnostic believers who essentially were saying: "sin does not exist in our lives whatsoever as believers if we sin." But John wants us to recognize our sin by confessing it, though (1 John 1:9). John also wants us to STOP SINNING, too. How so? He says in 1 John 2:1 to "sin not." Okay, so how can you "sin not" if you also must have sin in your life in order to not be a liar? These two thoughts are directly opposed to one another.

What's this nonsense about "must have sin in our life"?? I never said anything close to that. I said that all believer will sin in their lives after salvation, because there is no such thing as sinless perfection, which is what "those who say they have no sin".

As for the "we": Well, the warning to his brothers and sisters to not think "sin does not exist whatsoever" if they sin would also apply to John, as well.

You're free to twist Scripture any way you want.

Right. Then convince me from John's epistle itself that John is trying to refute Sinless Perfectionism then.

You cannot be convinced because you have already deceived yourself and the truth is not in you because you believe that believers can achieve sinless perfection by saying they have no sin. What else does sinless perfection mean?

Sorry, I just do not see that in his epistle.

Because those who say they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

I see the exact opposite.

Of course you do because you say you have no sin and have thus deceived yourself and the truth in not in you.

1 John 2:3-4 makes it very clear that if one says he knows him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Sounds more like Sinless Perfectionism than a denial of it.

No, it's a denial of sinless perfection because 1 Jn 1:8 refutes it.

Well, there are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death.

You haven't demonstrated that 1 Jn 5:16 is about spiritual death.

The words "twice dead" does not make sense with your belief system.

Sure it does, once again refuting your failure to understand my views. To be twice dead refers to those who never believed; they will die twice; physically and then spiritually in the lake of fire, called the second death.

The book of Jude is talking spiritually about this person being "twice dead.": And a person can only be "twice dead" spiritually would mean that they were:

(a) Dead spiritually once before they came to Christ.
(b) Dead spiritually a second time (twice) after they were saved. Meaning, they died spiritually a second time as a believer when they a committed a serious sin and then refused to confess or repent of it.​

The error is to understand "dead" as only spiritual. The Bible described a number of types of "death".​

Verses in Scripture have to be read in context to the rest of Scripture. You are not doing that. You are pulling 1 John 1:8 out of context and making it say something that goes against the surrounding verses.

Nonsense. The verse is a single statement of FACT; those who "say they have no sin (sinless perfection) have deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them". this statement does not need "context" for understanding any more than the statement that "the sky is blue" does.

Again, 1 John 1:8 is talking about the person who sins and then says they have no sin.

How come the verse doesn't say that? It's about those who "say they have no sin". Such people have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. This describes those who claim sinless perfection.

How come you don't see the very obvious connection here? What is sinless perfection? Having no sin. That's what. The verse directly describes anyone who claims what you do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is a proper understanding of 1 John 1:8 by looking at two different translations:

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible)....

Uh, are you guilty of sin? Any time after you placed your faith in Christ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, seals have been broken in the Bible. Even seals made by God have been broken. We see this in Revelation. The breaking of the seals which releases God's Wrath during the End Times.

Such nonsense is removed when one realizes that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE for the day of redemption.

So tell me how God breaks His promise and allows or breaks His GUARANTEED seal which is FOR the day of redemption?

The seal, iow, is guaranteed or promised for the day of redemption. This seal CANNOT be broken in the meantime.

We know the Spirit of God had departed from Saul and he was given an evil spirit instead.

There was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. Your examples fails. Even David prayed for the Holy Spirit not to depart.

Oh, and God does not break promises in His Word.

Well, there you go!! And that goes for His seal of the Holy Spirit, which is guaranteed and promised for the day of redemption.

There are conditional promises in God's Word and unconditional promises. An example of an unconditional promise would be God not destroying the Earth again by a global flood. The appearance of the rainbow is a testament to this promise. An example of conditional promises would be a person has to believe in Jesus by faith in order to be saved. This is a type of faith that is defined in Hebrews 11 that is both a belief and an action. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. So if a person stops having faith, then they cannot please Him anymore. For we are saved by God's grace THRU faith. Remember, the Jews were cut off because of unbelief (Which is anti-faith).

What does any of this have to do with God's promise for the day of redemption?? Can you cite any condition relating to the sealing with the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14?

Also, when you read Ephesians 4:30: You also have to read the rest of the Bible to get the context of that verse.

This is ridiculous. Context refers to what is IN context with a verse. iow, the passage where the verse is found.

Yet, in your belief: You can do evil against your King and he is like totally fine with it. In fact, he is going to give you a mansion even despite any evil that you do against him and or others (that your king desires to be protected).

Another flat out failure to understand my views. No, God is NEVER "totally fine" or even "partially fine" with disobedience and unfaithfulness. All you've done here is demonstrate just how much you've failed to grasp my view.

And the ONLY believers in heaven who will be rewarded are those who were faithful and obedience on earth. The rebellious ones will NOT be rewarded. Why do you continue to fail to grasp this?

 

[ToBeLoved]

No. 1 John 1:8 must be read in context of 1 John 2:1 that tells us to "sin not." 1 John 1:8 must also be read in context to 1 John 2:3-4 that says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

Okay. Stop and think for a moment. According to 1 John 2:4 (shown above), is the truth in you if you are not keeping His Commandments?
Furthermore, 1 John 2:4 also says that one is a liar if they say they know Him and are not keeping His commandments, too. This is a problem because Scripture says that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

Anyways, 1 John 1:8 is a warning against those who were falsely trying to seduce the brethren (See 1 John 2:26). Those who were trying to seduce the brethren thought that sin did not exist for them. This is similar to the OSAS belief today. They believe sin exists physically, but they do not believe sin exists spiritually for the believer because they hold to the erronous belief that their sin was paid for past, present, and future. They have no sin spiritually (Which is a violation of 1 John 1:8). For the very next verse tell us what to do if we are to sin. 1 John 1:9 tells us to confess our sin in order to be forgiven of sin. We are not just automatically forgiven of sin. Plus, John leaves no room or exuses for us to remain in our sin because he then follows up with telling us to: "sin not" (1 John 2:1).

As for your second point on how a believer cannot be unsaved: Well, we know from Scripture that there are those individuals who are TWICE DEAD plucked up by the roots (Jude 1:12). Meaning, these are individuals who have died spiritually twice. Such words should not exist in the Bible if OSAS were true.

Side Note:

Also, I do not see "Sinless Perfectionism" as being the problem in John's epistle which would be your argument for 1 John 1:8. On the contrary, John is arguing for the believer to: "sin not." John is saying he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).


...

You've born false witness against others on other threads. When I pointed this out to you, what did you say?

You have also been unforgiving, so do not act perfect Jason. You are only fooling yourself and if you do not speak truth than the truth of God is not in you.

Let's get real.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, you act like I have not read this epistle before.

The Word tells us that without the Holy Spirit, man does not understand the spiritual things of God. They read the Word without spiritual insight.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things

Maybe you do not have spiritual ears to hear? Now that makes sense to me and is according to the Word of God.