Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

No wonder you don't like Calvinism. You're getting tainted information full of lies and half truths. You don't even really know what Calvinist theology teaches. For you to try and set yourself up as an authority on the subject is presumptuous, and downright deceptive. the sad thing is, when real Calvinists try to show you where your perceptions are wrong, and where you've been misled, you refuse to believe them, to hang on to your tainted and deceptive information. To coin a phrase, You can't handle the truth!

It is better to remain silent, and be thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Well, actually, I believe there are many variations and levels of Calvinism. I do not believe it is just one version. So no. I am merely quoting one version of what certain people have said about it (Whether you hold to that version or not).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Repent, turn from your sin, and live! Listen and obey the truth of the Lord.

The prodigal son was dead? How was he made alive?

You are speaking of physical death with Lazarus. Are you speaking of physical death with everyone?

Are you familiar with these verses?

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Yes, even Jesus said, "...Let the dead bury their dead.." (Luke 9:60).

So the whole analogy that the dead cannot do anything (Such as come to God) is not what is taught in Scripture.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, even Jesus said, "...Let the dead bury their dead.." (Luke 9:60).

So the whole analogy that the dead cannot do anything (Such as come to God) is not what is taught in Scripture.

...

Jesus was talking about the spiritually dead burying the dead, because listening to Jesus they were learning how to be spiritually alive.

This is not the physically dead burying the physically dead.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Jesus was talking about the spiritually dead burying the dead, because listening to Jesus they were learning how to be spiritually alive.

This is not the physically dead burying the physically dead.

Right on Sister!

The spiritual deadness of natural fallen men is one of the most basic concepts in the Bible.

Even Nicodemus should have known that.

We must be born again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was talking about the spiritually dead burying the dead, because listening to Jesus they were learning how to be spiritually alive.

This is not the physically dead burying the physically dead.

And you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say or even think. Nowhere did I say that this was about the physical dead burying the dead. That doesn't even make any sense to even suggest something like that. The point I was trying to make is that those who are spiritually dead can take action (And even turn to God and live).

Anyways, the passage in Luke is talking about how they were to follow Jesus and leave their old life behind and let those in whom they had a relationship with once who are spiritually dead bury their own (Who are also spiritually dead).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The spiritual deadness of natural fallen men is one of the most basic concepts in the Bible.

Even Nicodemus should have known that.

We must be born again.

He that believes the gospel and or in Jesus has everlasting life whereby they are then regenerated. A person choosing of their own free will to believe the gospel is when they pass from death unto life.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

...

 

[Marvin Knox]

And you made a huge assumption about something I said that I did not say or think. Nowhere did I say that this was about the physical dead burying the dead. That doesn't even make any sense to even suggest something like that. The point I was trying to make is that those who are spiritually dead can take action (And even turn to God and live).

Anyways, the passage in Luke is talking about how they were to follow Jesus and leave their old life behind and let those in whom they had a relationship with once who are spiritually dead bury their own (Who are also spiritually dead). .

Those who are spiritually dead can take action. Who would ever dispute that?

Spiritually dad people take action all the time. They brush their teeth. They drive their cars. They even have funerals for their loved ones.

But this fact says nothing about their ability to understand the Words and thoughts of God, repent and respond positively to the gospel message.

I wouldn't presume to know for sure that those who followed Jesus were spiritually regenerated yet. But for sure this passage says nothing about the spiritually dead being able to do anything of a spiritual nature - including following Jesus as disciples.

In fact Jesus seems to draw a line between those who were to follow Him and those who they were to leave behind.

 

[Marvin Knox]

He that believes the gospel and or in Jesus has everlasting life whereby they are then regenerated.

So you say.

But the scriptures don't say that they are regenerated after believing the gospel.

Others have another opinion.

And yours is only an opinion and IMO it doesn't make much sense at all.

A person choosing of their own free will to believe the gospel is when they pass from death unto life.

So you say.
As I see things, one is born again when He responds to the Word of God. When his spirit is regenerated is another matter entirely.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4). ...

Great scriptures of course.

But they say nothing to bolster your opinion as to when people are regenerated.

The second one doesn't shed much light on things.

The first one only says that the one who is able to hear and believe "has" eternal life and has passed from death to life.

If anything it teaches that these things are a prerequisite to hearing and believing. That's exactly the Calvinist position though isn't it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who are spiritually dead can take action. Who would ever dispute that?

Spiritually dad people take action all the time. They brush their teeth. They drive their cars. They even have funerals for their loved ones.

But this fact says nothing about their ability to understand the Words and thoughts of God, repent and respond positively to the gospel message.

I wouldn't presume to know for sure that those who followed Jesus were spiritually regenerated yet. But for sure this passage says nothing about the spiritually dead being able to do anything of a spiritual nature - including following Jesus as disciples.

In fact Jesus seems to draw a line between those who were to follow Him and those who they were to leave behind.

The analogy is made that a dead person cannot respond. That is the point people bring up so as to make their case. But nowhere does the Bible say that those who are spiritually dead or those who are wicked cannot turn from their wicked ways and be forgiven and bring life to their soul.

On the contrary, the Bible says the wicked can turn from their wickedness and thereby save their soul alive.

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." (Ezekiel 18:27).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you say.

But the scriptures don't say that they are regenerated after believing the gospel.

Others have another opinion.

And yours is only an opinion and IMO it doesn't make much sense at all.

So you say.
As I see things, one is born again when He responds to the Word of God. When his spirit is regenerated is another matter entirely.

Great scriptures of course.

But they say nothing to bolster your opinion as to when people are regenerated.

The second one doesn't shed much light on things.

The first one only says that the one who is able to hear and believe "has" eternal life and has passed from death to life.

If anything it teaches that these things are a prerequisite to hearing and believing. That's exactly the Calvinist position though isn't it?

No. To as many as receive him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God.

Okay. First. THEY receive Him (Jesus). Second, after they received Christ, God then gave them power to become the sons of God (i.e. the new birth). This new birth applies also to even those who believe on his name, too.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If regeneration precedes faith, then what must a sinner do to be regenerated?


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

The analogy is made that a dead person cannot respond. That is the point people bring up so as to make their case. But nowhere does the Bible say that those who are spiritually dead or those who are wicked cannot turn from their wicked ways and be forgiven and bring life to their soul.

On the contrary, the Bible says the wicked can turn from their wickedness and thereby save their soul alive.

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." (Ezekiel 18:27)....

I would never say that a wicked unregenerate man cannot turn, do right and save his soul - or even be forgiven of some of his sins. But that doesn't translate to his regenerating His spirit.

Some hard line Calvinists would likely disagree with me.

No. To as many as receive him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God.

Okay. First. THEY receive Him (Jesus). Second, after they received Christ, God then gave them power to become the sons of God (i.e. the new birth). This new birth applies also to even those who believe on his name, too.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12).

Obviously you, like most people, are equating the new birth to regeneration of the spirit. I do not hold that position.

"If regeneration precedes faith, then what must a sinner do to be regenerated?"

Nothing.

I would think it goes without saying that a sinner can do nothing to create the new creature that he must become. That is the work of God as the scriptures plainly teach.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First of all, if regeneration precedes faith, then it means that the moment after you become a completely regenerated new creature in Christ, you still haven’t yet come to the place where you have put your faith in Christ. In effect, you have salvation, not through faith, but solely by God’s election. You are, moments after God regenerates you, a SAVED UNBELIEVER.

However, one cannot have salvation without faith, though. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6). And whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). For by grace are ye saved through FAITH (Ephesians 2:8).

Source Used:
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/May04-1.htm

 

[Marvin Knox]

First of all, if regeneration precedes faith, then it means that the moment after you become a completely regenerated new creature in Christ, you still haven’t yet come to the place where you have put your faith in Christ. In effect, you have salvation, not through faith, but solely by God’s election. You are, moments after God regenerates you, a SAVED UNBELIEVER.

However, one cannot have salvation without faith, though. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6). And whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). For by grace are ye saved through FAITH (Ephesians 2:8).

Source Used:
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/May04-1.htm

Who says that regeneration is the same thing as being saved? It seems that you believe that - not I.

I certainly don't believe that one is justified before faith. Nor does any Calvinist that I know of. Where do you get this stuff?

If you want to know what a Calvinist or I believe all you need to is ask.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who says that regeneration is the same thing as being saved? It seems that you believe that - not I.

I certainly don't believe that one is justified before faith. Nor does any Calvinist that I know of. Where do you get this stuff.

If you want to know what a Calvinist or I believe all you need to is ask.

Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

So having the capacity to even see the Kingdom of God requires one to be born again. This is a regeneration because Titus 3:5 says we are saved by the washing of regenertaion and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

For this matches up with Jesus saying we are born of the Spirit. This happens when a person receives Christ who are born not of the will of the flesh, but of the will of God.

".But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).


....

 

[sdowney717]

First of all, if regeneration precedes faith, then it means that the moment after you become a completely regenerated new creature in Christ, you still haven’t yet come to the place where you have put your faith in Christ. In effect, you have salvation, not through faith, but solely by God’s election. You are, moments after God regenerates you, a SAVED UNBELIEVER.

However, one cannot have salvation without faith, though. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6). And whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). For by grace are ye saved through FAITH (Ephesians 2:8).

Source Used:
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/May04-1.htm

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So to please God you must be a spiritual man. The unsaved natural carnal man can not be subject to God's law since it is at war with God.
So then how is such a mind going to submit itself to believing obedience regarding God's command to repent? Using the flesh of their natural mind? According to the scripture this is impossible.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be

 

[sdowney717]

"but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."
This speaks to me, that the Spirit of God has made them live according to His will, not the choice of a carnal mind has made them live.
So they then are a spiritual man that has been regenerated, so they then walk according to the Spirit.

You do not live according to the Spirit by your choices, you do so because God was at work inside you and changed you by a renewing of your spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jason0047 said: ↑
"If regeneration precedes faith, then what must a sinner do to be regenerated?"

Nothing.

I would think it goes without saying that a sinner can do nothing to create the new creature that he must become. That is the work of God as the scriptures plainly teach.

We know from Scripture that believers are new creatures. There is no evidence at all from Scripture that anyone is a new creature BEFORE they believe, or in order to believe.

I'm still wondering WHY Calvinists keep making a claim that they cannot support from the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

No. The carnal mind is simply talking about those who live after the flesh and ALSO think they can serve God at the same time. Meaning, they are Antinomians. The Pharisees were similar in a way. They ignored the weightier matters of the law, like justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23). For to be spiritually minded is life. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Spirit. So it is talking about having the right state of mind and behavior after one has been saved and it contrasts it with those who try to please God and also themselves.

For the focus of Romans 8 is not informing you of something that is out of your control (i.e. forced regeneration). The focus of Romans 8 is to inform you the reader of what you must do. Either you can:

(a) Walk after the Spirit (or):
(b) Walk after the flesh.

(a) Be spiritually minded (or):
(b) Be carnally minded.

So to please God you must be a spiritual man. The unsaved natural carnal man can not be subject to God's law since it is at war with God.
So then how is such a mind going to submit itself to believing obedience regarding God's command to repent? Using the flesh of their natural mind? According to the scripture this is impossible.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be

But you are making huge leaps of assumption with this text, though. Nowhere does it specifically mention a regeneration here.


....

 

[sdowney717]

No. The carnal mind is simply talking about those who live after the flesh and ALSO think they can serve God at the same time. Meaning, they are Antinomians. The Pharisees were similar in a way. They ignored the weightier matters of the law, like justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23). For to be spiritually minded is life. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Spirit. So it is talking about having the right state of mind and behavior after one has been saved and it contrasts it with those who try to please God and also themselves.

For the focus of Romans 8 is not informing you of something that is out of your control (i.e. forced regeneration). The focus of Romans 8 is to inform you the reader of what you must do. Either you can:

(a) Walk after the Spirit (or):
(b) Walk after the flesh.

(a) Be spiritually minded (or):
(b) Be carnally minded.



But you are making huge leaps of assumption with this text, though. Nowhere does it specifically mention a regeneration here.


....

Oh really now?
Jason, the first 4 verses establish the truth that christians do not walk after the flesh but the Spirit, they are not flesh walkers and Spirit walkers both as your teaching. THEY ARE EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER.

Romans 1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

When I say 'christians', I refer to those who are born again of God, who as Jesus said are of the Spirit and not of the flesh.

But your teaching says they are both of the flesh and spirit at the same time, contrary to what Christ has stated as truth, Romans 8 is in agreement with Christ's doctrine.
Jesus said this
John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.