Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Anyways, happy holidays everyone.
And may God bless you all.


...

Merry Christmas Jason!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that is not what you said.

I think though that I see where you meant to go with it, so I'm cool with that.

Well, I am not going to argue about what I said or didn't say. But hopefully you understand where I am coming from now.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Merry Christmas Jason!

Happy Holidays to you TBL.
May the Lord's love shine upon you today.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, I have heard it said that:

Calvinism:

Is the belief that...

> God causes all things, including sin.
And yet, He is not the author of sin.

> God causes all things, including sin.
And yet, He gets angry at the sin He causes.

> God irresistibly bends men's wills to faith and conversion.
And yet, He does not force anyone to be saved.​

If that is what some here are saying Calvinism is declaring, then I am afraid I do not understand such a belief in the slightest.
For me, a belief like that doesn't make any sense.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I also see Calvinism as being unfair or unjust because God creates certain men for the purpose of sending them to hell. In other words, in Calvinism it sounds like God wants some people in hell ---- which to me, sounds extremely unloving and outside the good character of the Holy God of the Scriptures ----- whereas under the non-Calvinistic view (Which the Bible teaches) God lovingly wants all people to be with Him in heaven; But some have simply limited themselves from being in Heaven with Him by the free will choice or choices they make in regards to the Lord in this life.

....

 

[sdowney717]

I also see Calvinism as being unfair or unjust because God creates certain men for the purpose of sending them to hell. In other words, in Calvinism it sounds like God wants some people in hell ---- which to me, sounds extremely unloving and outside the good character of the Holy God of the Scriptures ----- whereas under the non-Calvinistic view (Which the Bible teaches) God lovingly wants all people to be with Him in heaven, but they are simply limited by what choices they make in this life.

....

Another of Christ's teaching is for anyone to know Christ as their savior, that must be revealed to them from the Trinity of God in heaven, otherwise they will not know God and Christ. Truly I say to you, this revelation of who Christ is must be willed by the Trinity of God. Else the gospel is hidden from their sight. Total agreement of what Christ says is found in 2 Corinthians 4

Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Christ then says for those who feel the burden of their sins and of this life to come to Him and be saved.
The reason they feel that weight is they have been regenerated and are being taught by God to come to Christ. To them the gospel is being revealed, according to the will of God for them.

 

[Job8]

I also see Calvinism as being unfair or unjust because God creates certain men for the purpose of sending them to hell. In other words, in Calvinism it sounds like God wants some people in hell ....

Not just unfair or unjust but evil. Since Christ said that Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, we know that the above is FALSE DOCTRINE. The whole purpose of Christ coming to earth is so that all men could be saved. This is plainly stated in Scripture several times.

 

[Job8]

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Since all are burdened and heavy laden, and since all are under condemnation, this invitation is to ALL. To interpret it in any other way is to pervert God's truth.

 

[dece870717]

?

Let me ask you a question, if we are dead in our trespasses and sins, how can a dead man make himself alive? You can't respond to anything when you're dead. Did Lazarus have any say in his coming back to life? Could he hear Jesus? Could Lazarus respond by his own volition? You are proposing that you can hear and respond without being made alive(regenerated).

 

[sdowney717]

Since all are burdened and heavy laden, and since all are under condemnation, this invitation is to ALL. To interpret it in any other way is to pervert God's truth.

No, it is only for those who feel that burden, or those who thirst that will come to Christ.
Christ here is talking about those who DO come to Him, not those who will not.
They are being taught by the Father to come to Christ and be saved.

 

[dece870717]

Not just unfair or unjust but evil. Since Christ said that Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, we know that the above is FALSE DOCTRINE. The whole purpose of Christ coming to earth is so that all men could be saved. This is plainly stated in Scripture several times.

You want fair? You want just? Ok, go to Hell, that's fair and that's just. What's fair and just is the entire human race to burn in Hell for their sins. You don't want fair, you want God's mercy, you want what's not fair!

And evil? What's more evil than a judge not punishing guilty criminals? And instead, rewarding them?!

 

[sdowney717]

John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I also see Calvinism as being unfair or unjust because God creates certain men for the purpose of sending them to hell. In other words, in Calvinism it sounds like God wants some people in hell ---- which to me, sounds extremely unloving and outside the good character of the Holy God of the Scriptures ----- whereas under the non-Calvinistic view (Which the Bible teaches) God lovingly wants all people to be with Him in heaven; But some have simply limited themselves from being in Heaven with Him by the free will choice or choices they make in regards to the Lord in this life.....

Not just unfair or unjust but evil. Since Christ said that Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, we know that the above is FALSE DOCTRINE. The whole purpose of Christ coming to earth is so that all men could be saved. This is plainly stated in Scripture several times.

It seems to me that you are both just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

All of the issues concerning the existence of evil and the punishment that will be visited on those who do evil in this age must still be faced head on by anyone who cares about such things whether it's from a Calvinistic or a non-Calvinistic viewpoint.

Simply mumbling platitudes about free will doesn't help one bit. In fact it makes things a lot worse IMO.

Under a Calvinistic model God has an absolutely good purpose to all of this mess we see around us. Any "allowing" of evil and pain in this age serves a greater purpose that we will all see more clearly in the end. The Calvinist model requires trust in what we do not see.

Since mankind got into this mess through a lack of trust in God's Word - I find it very interesting that God wrote the scriptures the way that He did - requiring faith in His goodness to be believed in spite of what we feel.

There's no trust necessary for the non-Calvinist. They just choose to ignore part of what God has told us about these things.

The Reformed model includes all of the scriptural concepts that the Bible teaches - including the one referred to by Job8 above. The non-Reformed simply pick and choose what they will incorporate into their belief system.

Under a non-Reformed model God has no great planned purpose for all of the pain and suffering in this age and in Hell. God is a capricious God who allowed all this to happen and had no good reason to do it when He could have darn well prevented it in a million ways from happening.

He's still "allowing" it in either model. He still knew exactly what would happen and did it (or allowed it if you must) to happen anyway.

The non-Reformed theology puts man and his almighty free will as the center purpose of the age. The Reformed theology puts God's glory as the center purpose of the age.

I'll cast my lot with the theology which shows God in total charge and righteously working it all for good from start to finish. Besides that's exactly what the scriptures teach about it.

Others can whistle through the graveyard all they want. They can close their eyes and hope that chanting "free will", "free will", "free will" will make it all go away. But the problem of evil still confronts them when they really open their eyes.

Most don't open their eyes though. They just punch Calvinst straw men around in their dreams and think that they are somehow doing good by teaching other how to do it as well.

To a Reformed theologian it might seem just a little silly if it weren't so very sad.

 

[Job8]

The non-Reformed theology puts man and his almighty free will as the center purpose of the age. The Reformed theology puts God's glory as the center purpose of the age.

Man's free will -- by definition -- cannot be almighty. For example, some men would love to fly in the air like birds (unaided by any contraption or machine), but it will never happen, no matter how much they "will" to do so.

But because man's free will actually redounds to the glory of God, God gives human being two options: (1) repent, believe, and receive eternal life as a gift or (2) do not repent, do not believe, and receive eternal damnation. Thus the grace of God as well as the righteousness of God are both fully vindicated, which means that the glory of God is fully vindicated, and God will be eternally glorified in His Church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me ask you a question, if we are dead in our trespasses and sins, how can a dead man make himself alive?

The question isn't fair. God is the only One who makes men alive (aka regeneration). And that isn't the issue. The issue is about the action of believing the gospel message.

The question insinuates that a spiritually dead person cannot believe the gospel. But this is refuted by verses that say that men REFUSE to believe the gospel. It would be the height of idiocy for someone without some ability to REFUSE what they cannot perform.

iow, if they don't have the ability to do something, they cannot say that they refuse to do it. Because it's not about refusal. But the Bible says men refuse to believe or repent.

Jesus clearly made the point that spiritually dead people CAN hear and WILL live. How 'bout that! John 5:25.

You can't respond to anything when you're dead.

This is the fallacy of superimposing loss of function of physical death to spiritual death. There is no comparison. Spiritually dead people ARE physically alive. And functioning. Like REFUSING to believe the gospel. But not all refuse. All who have believed prove that spritually dead people CAN and DO function. And Jesus made that point.

Did Lazarus have any say in his coming back to life?

The issue of regeneration isn't about Lazarus. Jesus didn't give him new birth. He gave him back his physical life. He did die physically again.

Could he hear Jesus?

Obviously he did. Or he wouldn't have come out. Exactly what Jesus says in John 5:25.

Could Lazarus respond by his own volition?

Did Jesus go into the cave and drag him out? Of course not. He came out of his own volition.

You are proposing that you can hear and respond without being made alive(regenerated).

Well, Jesus said exactly that in John 5:25.

 

[Job8]

You want fair? You want just? Ok, go to Hell, that's fair and that's just. What's fair and just is the entire human race to burn in Hell for their sins. You don't want fair, you want God's mercy, you want what's not fair!

You've missed the point. Did you see what I said about the reason for Christ coming to this earth? All men are sinners, all deserve Hell, but all can be saved from Hell because of Christ. Therefore the offer of salvation is to "whosoever will" (Rev 22:17). Now if you come along and tell us, no, God has "decreed" some for Hell, you make God a liar.

And evil? What's more evil than a judge not punishing guilty criminals? And instead, rewarding them?!

Agreed. But if One who is totally sinless willingly and voluntarily offers Himself to take the guilty criminal's punishment (as Christ did when He was made Sin for us) then justice has been fully served, and the sinner can be declared "Not Guilty" (justified). And that is at the heart of the Gospel. We are justified freely be God's grace, and ALL who will repent and believe may be justified.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Man's free will -- by definition -- cannot be almighty. For example, some men would love to fly in the air like birds (unaided by any contraption or machine), but it will never happen, no matter how much they "will" to do so.

Cute.

But because man's free will actually redounds to the glory of God, God gives human being two options: (1) repent, believe, and receive eternal life as a gift or (2) do not repent, do not believe, and receive eternal damnation. Thus the grace of God as well as the righteousness of God are both fully vindicated, which means that the glory of God is fully vindicated, and God will be eternally glorified in His Church.

Whistling through the grave yard again I see.

 

[EmSw]

Let me ask you a question, if we are dead in our trespasses and sins, how can a dead man make himself alive?

Repent, turn from your sin, and live! Listen and obey the truth of the Lord.

The prodigal son was dead? How was he made alive?

You can't respond to anything when you're dead. Did Lazarus have any say in his coming back to life? Could he hear Jesus? Could Lazarus respond by his own volition? You are proposing that you can hear and respond without being made alive(regenerated).

You are speaking of physical death with Lazarus. Are you speaking of physical death with everyone?

Are you familiar with these verses?

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

 

[ToBeLoved]

Another of Christ's teaching is for anyone to know Christ as their savior, that must be revealed to them from the Trinity of God in heaven, otherwise they will not know God and Christ. Truly I say to you, this revelation of who Christ is must be willed by the Trinity of God. Else the gospel is hidden from their sight. Total agreement of what Christ says is found in 2 Corinthians 4

Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Christ then says for those who feel the burden of their sins and of this life to come to Him and be saved.
The reason they feel that weight is they have been regenerated and are being taught by God to come to Christ. To them the gospel is being revealed, according to the will of God for them.

The Bible is very clear that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It is with faith that we come to him to be born again.

I have no idea what you mean by it must be revealed by the Trinity. What verses support that.

 

[nobdysfool]

Anyways, I have heard it said that:

Calvinism:

Is the belief that...

> God causes all things, including sin.
And yet, He is not the author of sin.

> God causes all things, including sin.
And yet, He gets angry at the sin He causes.

> God irresistibly bends men's wills to faith and conversion.
And yet, He does not force anyone to be saved.​

If that is what some here are saying Calvinism is declaring, then I am afraid I do not understand such a belief in the slightest.
For me, a belief like that doesn't make any sense.


....

No wonder you don't like Calvinism. You're getting tainted information full of lies and half truths. You don't even really know what Calvinist theology teaches. For you to try and set yourself up as an authority on the subject is presumptuous, and downright deceptive. the sad thing is, when real Calvinists try to show you where your perceptions are wrong, and where you've been misled, you refuse to believe them, to hang on to your tainted and deceptive information. To coin a phrase, You can't handle the truth!

It is better to remain silent, and be thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.