Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, and having a relationship is fellowship.

This equates the 2 words, which is an error.

Fellowship refers to the STATE of the relationship.

Let's take parent and child. I speak of birth parent and child. That relationship is permanent. It cannot be changed. If you disagree, please explain yourself.

Fellowship refers to how the relationship is going. iow, when the child is being rebellious, the child is STILL the child, and the parent is STILL the parent, but there is no fellowship between the 2.

But, when there is harmony between parent and child, there IS fellowship. That's the difference and it directly applies spiritually.

Having a relationship, or fellowship is salvation. No relationship and no fellowship with Christ means no salvation. For Christ is the source of a person's eternal life or salvation.

See above for correct view of relationship and fellowship.

Do you actually need verses to prove to you that you need to abide in Christ in order to be saved? ...

What verses do you have? I KNOW there are no such verses.

To abide in Christ is a decision. To be saved is God's decision. Apparently there is confusion on your part regarding a lot of things.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not say God's Word has changed. I asked you how you feel that you know someone so well that you can tell if they have significant fruit of the Spirit unless they are your very close family or friends?

That is what I asked, because you said that the apostles could tell and so should we, but I explained that people do not live in small communities so we are around each other all the time. Back then, they did not commute in cars to work and then commute home. Take their kids to school on a school bus. Rent homes instead of own land. Surely you can see this.

So it is a question of how you feel that you know most people well enough to know their fruit of the Spirit, because many people put on their 'church face' or 'religious face' and that might not be genuine or not.

So how do you know?

A person can determine if a person is of God by the Spirit and by their fellowship with them in their homes.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

The parable of the Sower ties into it. There are two who understood the Word and received it with joy; however, they fell away due to different reasons (one fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the cares or the riches of this life).....

And where in the parable does it say that either one lost their salvation?

 

[Jesus First]

Romans 3:21–26
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God jput forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:18–19
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sister, ToBeLoved,


For Romans 3:24, the words "and are justified" declares an ongoing activity. The verb "are" describes an ongoing state. So, we are being justified (as believers) right now!

In Romans 5:18 it says, "so one act of righteousness leads to justification". It does not say it is or it is not a completed action action here.

For 2 Corinthians 5:21, it states, "we might become the righteousness of God". It doesn't state that our salvation is a completed action.

The last verse you provided: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." This verse states a past historical fact. As believers, at a point in time in the past, we were justified. This past historical fact is not stated here that it was, or was not, a completed action event.

In Christ!

 

[ToBeLoved]

A person can determine if a person is of God by the Spirit and by their fellowship with them in their homes.


...

lol.

Think things through Jason. Grabbing the lowest hanging fruit constantly does not require deep thought. Maybe realize what things were really like back in the days of the Apostles.

Sometimes I am surprised at the things you say, but then sometimes I go to myself, it is clearly not well thought out. Get a Bible Dictionary. Find out about populations, how people lived. How was land owned, how were the Jewish people taxed? How was inheritnace handled? Did families move away from each other? In what circumstances.

Ask yourself questions about life back then and then go find the answers.

You are so much better than this Jason.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sister, ToBeLoved,


For Romans 3:24, the words "and are justified" declares an ongoing activity. The verb "are" describes an ongoing state. So, we are being justified (as believers) right now!

In Romans 5:18 it says, "so one act of righteousness leads to justification". It does not say it is or it is not a completed action action here.

For 2 Corinthians 5:21, it states, "we might become the righteousness of God". It doesn't state that our salvation is a completed action.

The last verse you provided: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." This verse states a past historical fact. As believers, at a point in time in the past, we were justified. This past historical fact is not stated here that it was, or was not, a completed action event.

In Christ!

I think that you do not understand. Have you went back to the original language and found your verbs and the tense of the words? Because you are way off base with this.

What does it say in the Greek?

Go to Biblehub.com, find the verse you want and then choose 'Greek' from the top of the menu bar. Then start looking at those words and talk verbs, present tense, past tense, ect.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think he is saying that the Calvinist defines "belief" differently than how God's Word defines it.
A lot of Calvinists define "belief" as a result of God regenerating a person first.
However, the Bible simply tells men to believe without telling them to wait on some kind of regeneration.

All the Calvinist that I am aware of define "belief" in the same way the Bible does - (and I have a great many of the brightest and most accepted Reformed theologians represented in my well read library).

They do not define belief that way. They say that men "believe" because God regenerated them and made them a new creation - one which was able to exhibit "belief" in the scriptural sense. That is quite a bit different than what you just said.

However, the Bible simply tells men to believe without telling them to wait on some kind of regeneration.

No Calvinist preaches to men that they must wait for some kind of regeneration in order that they believe.

The unregenerate are unable to understand the doctrine of regeneration even if it was explained to them much less execute some kind of waiting on God to obtain it.

There is "no one" who understands and no one who seeks God.

"There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

The Bible does not say salvation is only for a select few (Even though God knows not everyone will accept His free love gift).

Salvation is freely and wholeheartedly offered to every man who hears the gospel. Every Calvinist believes that.

Many Calvinist do say (under the non- Calvinist inspired doctrine of limited atonement) that Christ did not die for the non-elect. Would that they would agree with what John Calvin taught about the extent of the atonement and not do that.

So God regenerates a person so as to have the choice to accept or reject Him? Or does God regenerate only the person He knows will accept Him?

No - all men have a choice to accept or reject Him.

Any regeneration is because He extends grace to some who deserve only Hell and opens their ears and eyes to the truth they were not able to hear and see because of their own sin.

God knows who will accept or reject Him from eternity past. He regenerates those sinners He has chosen to show His mercy through in the ages to come. The other Hell deserving sinners He passes by and leaves them to their sinful unbelief.

If that is what you are saying, then how is that fair to the person who had no choice otherwise?

Jesus gave you a parable that shows you exactly why this is fair - if you will but take His teaching to heart.

God gives some people what they bargained for (when they first sinned in this case). The just wages of sin is death.

To others He gives a better wage - eternal riches and glory in Christ Jesus.

No one has a legitimate beef about that. He's the owner of the vineyard. He makes the rules.

Some will, of course, pitch a beef to Him. And it won't even make it to the plate.


"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?" Matthew 20:15

Is there going to be a punishment or Judgment for animals?

I wouldn't think so.

But if there is and they are offered forgiveness it would likely have to be because God became a cow and was sent to the packing house for their sins.

But how does God decide then? What makes God choose one sinner over another? Is there something good in them that weighs in on His decision of choosing them? ...

The doctrine of the Calvinist (which you are disputing here) is "unconditional election".

I would think you'd know that already since you are venturing to disagree with them.

 

[Jesus First]

I think that you do not understand. Have you went back to the original language and found your verbs and the tense of the words? Because you are way off base with this.

What does it say in the Greek?

Go to Biblehub.com, find the verse you want and then choose 'Greek' from the top of the menu bar. Then start looking at those words and talk verbs, present tense, past tense, ect.

Sister ToBeLoved,

If you don't understand what an English present tense verb is (I say this respectfully), how will you understand the Greek?

I have attached a file that shows the verb "hears" from John 10:27.

In Christ!

 

[EmSw]

He changed it in that He gave me a new one that is separate from the old, yet the old is still there, a truly saved Christian ends up with a dual nature, the unsaved have one nature. You are rid of your evil nature at glorification. It goes in this order; Election, Predestination, Calling, Regeneration, Faith, Repentance, Justification, Sanctification, Perseverance, Glorification.

So God only changed a part of you and gave you a partial new nature. He left the old intact for what purpose? If you have the old intact, you are no different than any other person. If Paul said ALL things become new, why is this not the case with you? Did you get a raw deal?

God must regenerate you and in that regeneration you are given a repentant saving faith(there is a faith that does not save). Best analogy I've read so far; "It is logically necessary that electricity precedes light, but it is not logically necessary that light precedes electricity. When electricity is present, the light is the necessary result but not the reverse."

I don't find anywhere that says we are given a repentant faith at regeneration. I do find we must cast away all our iniquities to make ourselves a new heart. Paul also says to lay aside the old self and then to put on the new self. Maybe this is why people have trouble with the old nature, in that they say they have a new self, man, nature (take your pick), but do not cast away their iniquities first, that is, lay aside the old self.

As far as your analogy, I would say the light is regeneration, and the electricity is laying aside the old self.

The evil nature is sinful flesh, the new nature is spiritual.

This follows quite nicely with casting away and laying aside the old self, that is, sinful flesh.

I think you have misunderstood me, it was not until God drew me that my thoughts began to go to God, Judgement, Salvation, Christ, the Bible. The thoughts became so intense that I could no longer ignore all those things as I've done for years, and in that mind drawing/regenerating work of God, I was given a repentant saving faith, instead of having a purely mental faith that had no repentance(the difference between true and false converts).

Jesus draws all men unto Himself; why is it not all are chosen? Also, maybe God was calling you to cast away all your iniquities.

A lot of strongly Calvinist believers/teachers still have lapses of disagreements with it, it is a part of fallen human pride. Like the thoughts that come into my mind when I think about all this, that give me emotional disagreements with it are;

All People deserve the ability to become saved.
It's unfair to all those poor lost souls that are not chosen.
How could God hold people accountable for sin if they need God to regenerate them before they would desire to come to Him?

Again, lay aside the old self, the beginning of regeneration.

But when using proper theology;

Understanding sin to be exceedingly sinful.
God to be supremely Holy, righteous, and just.
Sinful mans undeserving of anything good.
Mankind's hatred and unwillingness to come to the true God.
That every sinner deserves Hell, everyone going/are there, deserves to be there and everyone in Heaven and going, doesn't deserve to be there.

When taking all that into account, I learn that my disagreements are because of my fallen human pride. It always comes back to we deserve this, we deserve that.

If a man understands sin to be exceedingly sinful, God to be supremely Holy, Righteous, and Just, and he is undeserving of anything good, why would man want to keep his sin, the old self hanging around? Why not humble himself under the hand of God to receive grace, forgiveness, and life?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That has to do with the fact that God is holy and all powerful and if you read further it says He is at work within you, which is an awesome thing to contemplate, so then have reverent fear and trembling.

Yes, God works in us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But that does not sound like a forced regeneration going on here. When one fears and trembles they are doing so in response that they could fall away from the faith if they are not careful in their spiritual walk with God. Yes, God can work in a person, but the Lord will not stay at work in a person if they are not working out their salvation in fear and trembling and they are just living life however they see fit like how the old man used to live.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

lol.

Think things through Jason. Grabbing the lowest hanging fruit constantly does not require deep thought. Maybe realize what things were really like back in the days of the Apostles.

Sometimes I am surprised at the things you say, but then sometimes I go to myself, it is clearly not well thought out. Get a Bible Dictionary. Find out about populations, how people lived. How was land owned, how were the Jewish people taxed? How was inheritnace handled? Did families move away from each other? In what circumstances.

Ask yourself questions about life back then and then go find the answers.

You are so much better than this Jason.

Everything I have said can be backed up by both God's Word and real world examples. Can you say the same?

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And where in the parable does it say that either one lost their salvation?

If the seed of the Word that was taken out of a person's heart by the wicked one is an unbeliever, then it stands to reason that the seed of the Word that was choked or hurt in another is going to meet the same fate.

Besides, the Word of God is an intergrated message system. It expresses this truth elsewhere that a person cannot remain fruitless or outside Christ and expect things to go well for themselves. For it is also written...

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." (John 15:4-8).


...

 

[GillDouglas]

At the point of creation of all things there were many divine attributes that were displayed. Yet what of the attributes of justice, mercy and grace? Until man's fall into sin, and redemption from it, these attributes had been undisplayed and unknown to any but God Himself from all eternity. The plan of redemption is thus traced back to eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he would later be redeemed. The redemption of man by Christ was NOT an afterthought that came about after man's fall; indeed it was a provision designed by God that when man fell he found justice hand in hand with grace and mercy. We have gained more through the salvation in Christ that we lost by the fall in Adam. Out of the ruins of the fall, God has built a new spiritual creation far more glorious than the first. All completed by His design, by His plan, for His glory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This equates the 2 words, which is an error.

Fellowship refers to the STATE of the relationship.

No it doesn't. Fellowship is in having a common fellow friendship or bond. Hence, the word, fellows ship. It's like friendship. We are fellows. We are friends. That is what fellowship is saying.

Let's take parent and child. I speak of birth parent and child. That relationship is permanent. It cannot be changed. If you disagree, please explain yourself.

Fellowship refers to how the relationship is going. iow, when the child is being rebellious, the child is STILL the child, and the parent is STILL the parent, but there is no fellowship between the 2.

Not really. If a son dies, he is no longer a living member of that family anymore. Dead members of a man's family can no longer participate in family picnics, etc. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said twice that his son was "dead" and was "alive again." This is because his son thru himself down before the mercy of his father and cried out to heaven over his sin after having lived a sinful or prodigal life away from the father.

But, when there is harmony between parent and child, there IS fellowship. That's the difference and it directly applies spiritually.


See above for correct view of relationship and fellowship.


What verses do you have? I KNOW there are no such verses.

To abide in Christ is a decision. To be saved is God's decision. Apparently there is confusion on your part regarding a lot of things.

Let's say your child tried to kill you and your entire family. Let's say he killed half of the world. Are you really going to say you have a fellowship with a son like that? Would you even want to say he is your son if he did all that horrible evil? I doubt it. Now, stop and imagine how you think God feels about sin. Do you really expect me to believe that a saint has a license to sin or that he has some kind of exemption or free pass to live in sin? Ever read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 recently?


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

At the point of creation of all things there were many divine attributes that were displayed. Yet what of the attributes of justice, mercy and grace? Until man's fall into sin, and redemption from it, these attributes had been undisplayed and unknown to any but God Himself from all eternity. The plan of redemption is thus traced back to eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he would later be redeemed. The redemption of man by Christ was NOT an afterthought that came about after man's fall; indeed it was a provision designed by God that when man fell he found justice hand in hand with grace and mercy. We have gained more through the salvation in Christ that we lost by the fall in Adam. Out of the ruins of the fall, God has built a new spiritual creation far more glorious than the first. All completed by His design, by His plan, for His glory.

Amen brother!

Some people seem to think that things just kind of got out of hand in the garden and God has been playing catch up ever since.

The Reformed position is that God has been ahead of the curve since before the foundation of the world.

Some, apparently, feel that that former position is a comforting position for Christians. I do not.

I like to think that God had it all planned before He said the first Word.

In fact -- I'm quite sure that that's exactly what the scriptures teach.

 

[GillDouglas]

Amen brother!

Some people seem to think that things just kind of got out of hand in the garden and God has been playing catch up ever since.

The Reformed position is that God has been ahead of the curve since before the foundation of the world.

Some, apparently, feel that that former position is a comforting position for Christians. I do not.

I like to think that God had it all planned before He said the first Word.

In fact -- I'm quite sure that that's exactly what the scriptures teach.

I agree. It seems as if some believe that God created with no plan in mind. As if He just created and walked away, sitting idly by being constantly surprised and thwarted by the creation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All the Calvinist that I am aware of define "belief" in the same way the Bible does - (and I have a great many of the brightest and most accepted Reformed theologians represented in my well read library).

They do not define belief that way. They say that men "believe" because God regenerated them and made them a new creation - one which was able to exhibit "belief" in the scriptural sense. That is quite a bit different than what you just said.

No Calvinist preaches to men that they must wait for some kind of regeneration in order that they believe.

The unregenerate are unable to understand the doctrine of regeneration even if it was explained to them much less execute some kind of waiting on God to obtain it.

There is "no one" who understands and no one who seeks God.

"There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

Salvation is freely and wholeheartedly offered to every man who hears the gospel. Every Calvinist believes that.

Many Calvinist do say (under the non- Calvinist inspired doctrine of limited atonement) that Christ did not die for the non-elect. Would that they would agree with what John Calvin taught about the extent of the atonement and not do that.

No - all men have a choice to accept or reject Him.

Any regeneration is because He extends grace to some who deserve only Hell and opens their ears and eyes to the truth they were not able to hear and see because of their own sin.

God knows who will accept or reject Him from eternity past. He regenerates those sinners He has chosen to show His mercy through in the ages to come. The other Hell deserving sinners He passes by and leaves them to their sinful unbelief.

Jesus gave you a parable that shows you exactly why this is fair - if you will but take His teaching to heart.

God gives some people what they bargained for (when they first sinned in this case). The just wages of sin is death.

To others He gives a better wage - eternal riches and glory in Christ Jesus.

No one has a legitimate beef about that. He's the owner of the vineyard. He makes the rules.

Some will, of course, pitch a beef to Him. And it won't even make it to the plate.


"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?" Matthew 20:15

I wouldn't think so.

But if there is and they are offered forgiveness it would likely have to be because God became a cow and was sent to the packing house for their sins.

The doctrine of the Calvinist (which you are disputing here) is "unconditional election".

I would think you'd know that already since you are venturing to disagree with them.

I will keep this simple.

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive" (Ezekiel 18:27).

Okay, so either we have a contradiction in God's Word or there is an explanation.

According to you, a wicked man cannot turn away from his wickedness. But that is what the Bible says here. So how do we resolve the Scriptures that say that there is none that seeketh after God in Romans 3? Simple. Paul was quoting the heathen in Psalm 14. For the heathen or Gentiles did not generally seek after God in the Old Testament. It was very rare. The New Testament says that salvation has now come unto the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." (Romans 11:11).

"Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." (Acts 28:28).

Again, does this mean that salvation was never available to Gentiles before? No. It just means that God's plan of salvation is now more readily accepted by the Gentiles after Christ's death and resurrection (Whereas his people, the Jews had rejected such a salvation). So Romans 3 is not saying that there is absolutey no way a man can seek after God because they are unregenerate. It doesn't say that. It is talking about the Gentiles of the Old Testament and how they did not generally seek after God. But Paul's point in Romans 3 is that both the Jew and the Gentile are both under sin and can both come to have salvation by having faith in Jesus Christ.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree. It seems as if some believe that God created with no plan in mind. As if He just created and walked away, sitting idly by being constantly surprised and thwarted by the creation.

I do not believe God is not in control or anything. Perish the thought. For God was more than able to work the evil that his brothers did towards Joseph for the greater good of His plan. However, God does not create evil or bad sinful things to happen, though. Man is responsible for sin and evil in this world. Man is responsible for having unbelief in God and will be held accountable at a Judgment. God is all powerful that He can manipulate the good and the bad that already exists in His universe for his greater glory and plan. But that does not mean God ordains or plans for evil to take place. Evil and sin was a result of man's choice as a part of the free will God gave to Him.

...

 

[GillDouglas]

I will keep this simple.

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive" (Ezekiel 18:27).

Okay, so either we have a contradiction in God's Word or there is an explanation.

According to you, a wicked man cannot turn away from his wickedness. But that is what the Bible says here. So how do we resolve the Scriptures that say that there is none that seeketh after God in Romans 3? Simple. Paul was quoting the heathen in Psalm 14. For the heathen or Gentiles did not generally seek after God in the Old Testament. It was very rare. The New Testament says that salvation has now come unto the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." (Romans 11:11).

"Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." (Acts 28:28).

Again, does this mean that salvation was never available to Gentiles before? No. It just means that God's plan of salvation is now more readily accepted by the Gentiles after Christ's death and resurrection (Whereas his people, the Jews had rejected such a salvation). So Romans 3 is not saying that there is absolutey no way a man can seek after God because they are unregenerate. It doesn't say that. It is talking about the Gentiles of the Old Testament and how they did not generally seek after God. But Paul's point in Romans 3 is that both the Jew and the Gentile are both under sin and can both come to have salvation by having faith in Jesus Christ.

...

We are cursed through Adam and we are redeemed through Christ, these we can both agree on. You might agree also that we are no more personally guilty of Adam's sin than we are personally meritorious because of Christ's righteousness. We have inherited human nature from Adam and received from him the fruit of his iniquity by our birth. There was nothing we did to receive it, yet we are guilty of Adam's sin.

Our salvation is not something we are born with and it is not something that is earned. It is a gift from God for Him to give as He pleases, earned by the saving works of Christ not by the failing works of men. This is the truest example of His grace and mercy; saving those who, through Adam's disobedience and our continued rebellion, deserve nothing.

 

[GillDouglas]

I do not believe God is not in control or anything. Perish the thought. For God was more than able to work the evil that his brothers did towards Joseph for the greater good of His plan. However, God does not create evil or bad sinful things to happen, though. Man is responsible for sin and evil in this world. Man is responsible for having unbelief in God and will be held accountable at a Judgment. God is all powerful that He can manipulate the good and the bad that already exists in His universe for his greater glory and plan. But that does not mean God ordains or plans for evil to take place. Evil and sin was a result of man's choice as a part of the free will God gave to Him.

...

God in no way compelled man to fall. He simply withheld that undeserved constraining grace with which Adam would infallibly not have fallen, the grace God was under no obligation to bestow. Adam might have stood had he so chosen; but in respect to God, and His plan, it was certain that he would fall. He acted freely as if there had been no decree, and yet as infallibly as if there had been no liberty.

God was pleased to permit our first parents to be tempted and to fall, and then to overrule their sin for His own glory. This permission and overruling of sin does not make Him the author of it. He has permitted the fall in order to show what free will would do; and then, by overruling it, He has shown what the blessings of His grace and the judgement of His justice can do.