Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

This is getting good now.

I'm getting excited! Let's get to some scriptural meat. No more milk ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Jesus First]

Verses.


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?

I repeat again what I said.

"If any of the ones who came to Him because they were given to Him by the Father fall away as you say they can, then Jesus will be raising up non believers on the last day. That's just silly IMO.

He's obviously not talking about the Great White Throne judgment when he mentions the last day here."

Hi brother Knox,

Are you referring to John 6:37? If so, where does this verse/chapter guarantee that everyone who comes to Jesus today will always come to Him? The second half of verse 37 explicitly states, "and whoever comes [present tense verb, participle; ongoing action here] to me I will never cast out"

In Christ!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You just do not believe what Christ has said about these things.
If you keep resisting what Christ said, what I say won't help either.

Well, just because you say it is so does not make it that way. You are going to have to back up your statement here with the Word of God that specifically says what you are saying.


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[ToBeLoved]

?

Hi brother Knox,

Are you referring to John 6:37? If so, where does this verse/chapter guarantee that everyone who comes to Jesus today will always come to Him? The second half of verse 37 explicitly states, "and whoever comes [present tense verb, participle; ongoing action here] to me I will never cast out"

In Christ!

What is your proof that 'comes' is a [present tense verb, pariciple, ongoing action here]

I've never heard anyone say that coming to Christ is an ongoing action? Salvation is not an ongoing action. Being born again in Jesus Christ is not an ongoing action? Where did you get that from?

 

[Jesus First]

As for John 10, nowhere does this chapter mention any kind of forced regeneration. Those that follow Jesus who cannot be snatched out of His hand do so as a part of their own free will. We know this because there are many verses on how it is man's choice in accepting or rejecting God. Hence, why there will be a Judgment.

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Hi Jason,

You are absolutely correct. Those who "never perish" and "no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (V. 28) are those who "hear" [present tense verb] and "follow" [present tense verb] (v. 27). Both of these verbs grammatically declare ongoing actions. These verses are regularly twisted for a meaning not found in the text based on rules of grammar. Only those who persevere are guaranteed salvation.

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

Jason, regarding John 10, Christ says they have eternal life and will never perish. This is what I have showed you.
If your thoughts are against what Christ has said, then you need to take such thoughts captive, means put them down and believe Christ instead.

Brother Sdowney717,

Those who are promised eternal life and will never perished are performing what actions?

In Christ!

 

[Received]

This is getting good now.

I'm getting excited! Let's get to some scriptural meat. No more milk ladies and gentlemen!

We ain't got no time for theological vegetarians!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
"Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5."

You missed my point completely. This isn't the issue. Obviously the Bible says that people fall away from the faith. The issue is to prove from Scripture that falling away from the faith results in loss of salvation.

That is NOT found anywhere in Scripture.

Really? So a person who was once on fire for God and did many great things for the Lord and had a deep walk with Him for many years and then later commits suicide because of tragedy in his family is saved? Sorry, I just don't see support of people falling away from the faith as being saved.

I mean, just ask yourself who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 6:15?
Was Jesus speaking to the believer or the unbeliever?
If you say unbeliever it does not work because unbelievers cannot be saved by simply forgiving others.
An unbeliever first has to accept or believe in Christ in order to be saved.
So this leads us to conclude that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15.
Which means Jesus believers that a believer can be unforgiven by the Father if they do not forgive others.

Furthermore, if you believe Jesus's words during His Earthly ministry do not appy anymore, then that would not be a correct view of the Scriptures, either. For Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

This seems to be a word game. Whether salvation is "lost", or "forfeited" results in the EXACT SAME CONDITION: going to hell. And I don't play word games. Your statement is internally contradicted.

It's not a word game. There is a difference. For one is a choice to rebel against God and the other is a loss that is outside your control. For example: If a man ran thru a forest and a branch ripped his pocket letting loose all the change that was within it (without him realizing it), he would have lost that change. But if that same man took change from out of his pocket and threw it willingly into the forest, he is forfeiting that change of his own free will choice.

In other words, salvation is not forced upon you. We still have free will to believe or not to believe after we have accepted Jesus Christ. God is not a respecter of persons. Just because a person says they believe in Jesus Christ does not really mean anything if they have no real fruit in their life that Christ lives within them (See James 2:17, and 2 Corinthians 13:5).

And there are NO VERSES that indicate that one even can "willingly throw it away". That's just wishful thinking.

And the Bible disagrees with you. For all who name as if they part of Christ's kingdom who work iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels at the End of the Age and cast into the fire to be destroyed (Matthew 13:41-42).

Refuted by Samuel's words in 1 Sam 28:19. Saul joined Samuel after death.

Both the wicked and the saint both went to the realm of the dead called Sheol. Except in this place of the dead, there are two places one can go to. Hades or the place of Torments (Hell) and Paradise (i.e. Abraham's Bosom).

NONE of these verses say that any of these people "forfeited their salvation". ZERO

And did you closely look them over again?
I would advice that you do so by way of prayer.

Again, there is no evidence in any of these verses about the "potential" of losing/forfeiting their salvation.

But what if the Bible actually says that?
Would you be willing to change if that was the case?
For there are many verses in the Bible that tell us a person can be saved for a time and then be unsaved.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, you need to read the above again. This is the part that you do not get and get lost on.

And I provided a passage that proves that a SEAL is not unbreakable.
The Scriptures say "circumcision is seal."
The Scriptures also say that if one breaks the Law, their cirumcision is made uncircumision.


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[ToBeLoved]

And the Bible disagrees with you. For all who name themselves as being a part of Christ's kingdom who work iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels at the End of the Age and cast into the fire to be destroyed (Matthew 13:41-42).
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But what is the context of this verse?

Matthew 13:37-43
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

In verse 43 it tells us who the saved people are, "in the kingdom of THEIR Father". Those of us who are children of God are not part of verses 41 and 42.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is talking to the Jewish Pharisee's who do not believe that He is the Son of God, nor the Messiah. They do not believe in Jesus.

Let's keep this in context. Who is Jesus talking to? Who is He saying that are not His sheep and why?

Ask yourself the hard questions and read it in context. That helps.

The woman at the well was half Jew and half Gentile yet Jesus offered her eternal life.

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[ToBeLoved]

And I provided a passage that proves that a SEAL is not unbreakable.
The Scriptures say "circumcision is seal."
The Scriptures also say that if one breaks the Law, their cirumcision is made uncircumision.


....

The Holy Spirit is also a seal. Not a seal of the Old Covenant or law.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant. The Covenant Jesus Christ died to give us. The new and EVERLASTING covenant.

So, are you then saying that the Holy Spirit leaves a saved person and that God breaks His covenant with us?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The woman at the well was half Jew and half Gentile yet Jesus offered her eternal life.

...

Does that change the context of the scripture that I was referring to? Jesus was referring to those who DID NOT BELIEVE that he was the Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But what is the context of this verse?

Matthew 13:37-43
37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

In verse 43 it tells us who the saved people are, "in the kingdom of THEIR Father". Those of us who are children of God are not part of verses 41 and 42.

But these are tares. They hid themselves among the wheat. The disciples wanted to pull out these tares. But Jesus said for them to let them grow together and Christ will remove them at the End of the Harvest by His own angels. The Pharisees said they were of God. But Jesus said they do the works of their father the devil. Meaning, they lived a sinful and hypocritical life. Jesus said we will know false prophets (believers) by their fruit. So if a person is not exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit and they are living sinful lives all the time, they are are living in contradiction to God and His Word and proving themselves to be not true to the Lord.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Holy Spirit is also a seal. Not a seal of the Old Covenant or law.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant. The Covenant Jesus Christ died to give us. The new and EVERLASTING covenant.

So, are you then saying that the Holy Spirit leaves a saved person and that God breaks His covenant with us?

These words were spoken in the New Testament.

If a person can break a seal in the Old, they can break a seal in the New. God is not a respecter of persons.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Does that change the context of the scripture that I was referring to? Jesus was referring to those who DID NOT BELIEVE that he was the Christ.

The Gentiles did not get a free pass in rejecting the truth in the Old Testament. God simply waited to preach the good news to them until the New Covenant was officially established. Before that time, Gentiles still were obligated to come to God by faith under the Old Covenant. Cornelius is a good example. But as I said before, Christ did not limit salvation to Gentiles.


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[sdowney717]

Brother Sdowney717,

Those who are promised eternal life and will never perished are performing what actions?

In Christ!

Of course they are bearing good fruit.
This though is exactly what those who are made good trees do, they bear good fruit.
Matthew 12:33
[ A Tree Known by Its Fruit ] “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a treeis known by its fruit.
So who makes the tree?
Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

For all those who teach that a good tree can bear bad fruit, why do you teach the opposite of Christ??
Good tree bears good fruit Bad tree bears bad fruit.
So salvation can not be lost, else the good tree would be bearing bad fruit.
It is that the bad trees just stay bad unless Christ makes them the good tree, and THEN they only bear good fruit, they never become bad trees. And never will a good tree bear bad fruit. It is so simple really, if you would just yield to the truth of election only grace salvation and not works.

 

[Jesus First]

What is your proof that 'comes' is a [present tense verb, pariciple, ongoing action here]

I've never heard anyone say that coming to Christ is an ongoing action? Salvation is not an ongoing action. Being born again in Jesus Christ is not an ongoing action? Where did you get that from?

Hi brother,

I'll try to answer your question. But first, I'll ask you a question? Where does the Bible declare that salvation is a completed action when we enter the family of God? Our salvation was a realized objective. A sovereign God has designed the salvation package according to His perfect character.

Your question: The New Testament was written in Kione Greek. In this language, words have information inside them. This information is sometimes called parsing.

For example, the parsing for the word "hear" in John 10:27 is: verb, present (tense), active, indicative, 3rd person, and plural.

Bible scholars can disagree on the interpretion of a passage. However, they will agree on the parsing because it is a fact.

I use Logos Bible software or Olive Tree software when I inquire further into the Greek. I believe blueletterbible.com has a section on their website where parsing is available.

There are many verses that grammatically declare that salvation is an ongoing process for those who are in the faith. Here are just a few:

Romans 3:24 reads, "and are justified by his grace as a gift.."

And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved .." Acts 2:47

"18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

In Christ!

 

[sdowney717]

Hi brother,

I'll try to answer your question. But first, I'll ask you a question? Where does the Bible declare that salvation is a completed action when we enter the family of God? Our salvation was a realized objective. A sovereign God has designed the salvation package according to His perfect character.

Your question: The New Testament was written in Kione Greek. In this language, words have information inside them. This information is sometimes called parsing.

For example, the parsing for the word "hear" in John 10:27 is: verb, present (tense), active, indicative, 3rd person, and plural.

Bible scholars can disagree on the interpretion of a passage. However, they will agree on the parsing because it is a fact.

I use Logos Bible software or Olive Tree software when I inquire further into the Greek. I believe blueletterbible.com has a section on their website where parsing is available.

There are many verses that grammatically declare that salvation is an ongoing process for those who are in the faith. Here are just a few:

Romans 3:24 reads, "and are justified by his grace as a gift.."

And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved .." Acts 2:47

"18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

In Christ!

To us who are being saved is a completed work. Paul is describing the process for those who become saved due to the power of God..

 

[ToBeLoved]

But these are tares. They hid themselves among the wheat. The disciples wanted to pull out these tares. But Jesus said for them to let them grow together and Christ will remove them at the End of the Harvest by His own angels. The Pharisees said they were of God. But Jesus said they do the works of their father the devil. Meaning, they lived a sinful and hypocritical life. Jesus said we will know false prophets (believers) by their fruit. So if a person is not exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit and they are living sinful lives all the time, they are are living in contradiction to God and His Word and proving themselves to be not true to the Lord.


...

But that is the scripture you were quoting, Matthew 13:41-42? So you used this parable to say that someone can walk away from their salvation in CHrist in post #1508, so how do you explain using that scripture then to prove that point? I'm missing something.

How do you judge most people if they have the fruit of the Spirit? Most of us are not around most other people enough to really know. That's why people 'play good' to seem like they have fruit. So are you just buying in to their doing this? Because the Pharisee's seemed to everyone but Jesus to have much fruit.