Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

I think he is saying that the Calvinist defines "belief" differently than how God's Word defines it.
A lot of Calvinists define "belief" as a result of God regenerating a person first.
However, the Bible simply tells men to believe without telling them to wait on some kind of regeneration.
The Bible does not say salvation is only for a select few (Even though God knows not everyone will accept His free love gift).



So God regenerates a person so as to have the choice to accept or reject Him? Or does God regenerate only the person He knows will accept Him? If that is what you are saying, then how is that fair to the person who had no choice otherwise?



Is there going to be a punishment or Judgment for animals?



But how does God decide then? What makes God choose one sinner over another? Is there something good in them that weighs in on His decision of choosing them?


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Jason, you do not believe in Christ when He says clearly he gives the sheep eternal life and they never perish.
Looking over your lost salvation verses I see nothing about that happening.
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Meand rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].

26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.

30 I and the Father are One.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If you will take note of John 17:12, Jesus says to the Father that He (the Father) had given the disciples to Him. Then Jesus says He has kept them all except one of them. Jesus says he lost one of them. The Father does not give lost people to Jesus (Who stayed lost). Judas was at one time given to Jesus by the Father and saved. He was an appointed disciple with power from God. But Judas fell by his transgression. Judas became unsaved..............

It does not say that Judas was saved and you'll be hard pressed to find any theologian who would agree with you on that.

You simply added "and saved" to the text.

Don't add things to the scriptures. It could be bad for your health.

 

[sdowney717]

It does not say that Judas was saved and you'll be hard pressed to find any theologian who would agree with you on that.

You simply added "and saved" to the text.

Don't add things to the scriptures. It could be bad for your health.

I have also pointed out the Judas was not a believer, from the end of John 6 it is clear Jesus was talking of Judas.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks be to God who gives us who are elect an eternal salvation that can not be lost since He has chosen us to be obedient to Jesus and sprinkled with His blood..

1 Peter 1 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Peter, an apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 [Born anew] into an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay [imperishable], unsullied and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.

6 [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations,

Verse 5 is the context.

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5).

They are kept by the power of God THRU faith.
In other words, they had to have FAITH.
Faith is defined for us in Hebrews 11. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

These Elect are those who have purified their souls by faith.

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22).

Did you catch that?

Verse 22 says that we have to be sure to love one another with a pure heart feverntly. This is a Command giving to us. This is not an automatic thing. It requires faith on a person's part to believe verse 22.

For faith is not about God zapping us into being a mindless puppet that can only think one way. Faith is having trust in God's Word in what it says.


....

 

[sdowney717]

64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.

67 Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away? [And do you too desire to leave Me?]

68 Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words (the message) of eternal life.

69 And we have learned to believe and trust, and [more] we have come to know [surely] that You are the Holy One of God, the Christ (the Anointed One), the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And [yet] one of you is a devil (of the evil one and a false accuser).

71 He was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he was about to betray Him, [although] he was one of the Twelve.

Clearly in context from v64 to v71, Jesus is talking of those who do not believe since they were not enabled to believe in Christ by the Father, and Judas is in that group.

Others also would do miraculous things in HIS NAME, yet Christ tells them HE NEVER knew them. As in never knew them ever, so he did not foreknow them according to his eternal election of them to be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The only one lost was Judas, Christ says all the others given to Him he keeps.

Think about the word "lost" for a moment. You cannot lose my book, if I never let you borrowed it. In other words, in order for you to lose my book, it would have to be in your possession. The Father gave the disciples to Jesus and one then became lost to Him (i.e. Judas).

In fact, even the Psalms say that Judas was his own familar friend.

Who are Jesus' friends according to Scripture?

See John 15:14.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Verse 5 is the context.

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5).

They are kept by the power of God THRU faith.
In other words, they had to have FAITH.
Faith is defined for us in Hebrews 11. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

These Elect are those who have purified their souls by faith.

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22).

Did you catch that?

Verse 22 says that we have to be sure to love one another with a pure heart feverntly. This is a Command giving to us. This is not an automatic thing. It requires faith on a person's part to believe verse 22.

For faith is not about God zapping us into being a mindless puppet that can only think one way. Faith is having trust in God's Word in what it says.


....

The elect are saved because they have faith. And they have faith because they are elect. To be elect precedes faith , since you are elect before you're born. Before you are born you have no faith since you do not yet exist. But God calls things into existence as though they were by His Word which is Christ. And so He calls His elect, according to His will, His very own possession to belong to Christ and have faith.

What about John 10, why do you not believe in Christ's word?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.

67 Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away? [And do you too desire to leave Me?]

68 Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words (the message) of eternal life.

69 And we have learned to believe and trust, and [more] we have come to know [surely] that You are the Holy One of God, the Christ (the Anointed One), the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And [yet] one of you is a devil (of the evil one and a false accuser).

71 He was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he was about to betray Him, [although] he was one of the Twelve.

Clearly in context from v64 to v71, Jesus is talking of those who do not believe since they were not enabled to believe in Christ by the Father, and Judas is in that group.

Others also would do miraculous things in HIS NAME, yet Christ tells them HE NEVER knew them. As in never knew them ever, so he did not foreknow them according to his eternal election of them to be saved.

You cannot betray someone who was never in allegiance to you. That would be like saying Satan could betray God. It's not possible.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The elect are saved because they have faith. And they have faith because they are elect. To be elect precedes faith , since you are elect before you're born. Before you are born you have no faith since you do not yet exist. But God calls things into existence as though they were by His Word which is Christ. And so He calls His elect, according to His will, His very own possession to belong to Christ and have faith.

What about John 10, why do you not believe in Christ's word?

Nowhere does Scripture say faith is the result of something that comes about by some kind of regeneration or as some kind of forced thing done upon a person. It doesn't work like that. If such were the case, then the Judgment would be a joke or a farce.

...

 

[sdowney717]

Think about the word "lost" for a moment. You cannot lose my book, if I never let you borrowed it. In other words, in order for you to lose my book, it would have to be in your possession. The Father gaves the disciples to Jesus and one then became lost to Him (i.e. Judas).

In fact, even the Psalms say that Judas was his own familar friend.

Who are Jesus' friends according to Scripture?

See John 15:14.


...

Recall Christ though has chosen Judas to be one of the 12, Judas did not choose Christ. Judas is the only one like this in all of history and this was according to God's plan as foretold.

 

[sdowney717]

Nowhere does Scripture say faith is the result of something that comes about by some kind of regeneration or as some kind of forced thing done upon a person. It doesn't work like that. If such were the case, then the Judgment would be a joke or a farce.

...

You keep falling back on that thought. This does not help you to believe in Christ's own words in John 10 as I told you before.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for John 10, nowhere does this chapter mention any kind of forced regeneration. Those that follow Jesus who cannot be snatched out of His hand do so as a part of their own free will. We know this because there are many verses on how it is man's choice in accepting or rejecting God. Hence, why there will be a Judgment.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Recall Christ though has chosen Judas to be one of the 12, Judas did not choose Christ. Judas is the only one like this in all of history and this was according to God's plan as foretold.

While God certainly can use unsaved people or preachers for his glory in spreading the gospel, God does not choose unsaved people to spread the gospel by appointing men in holy positions (i.e. the discipleship) who are unsaved in order to do so.

The discipleship was a holy position that represented Christ.

It doesn't make any sense to say otherwise. God does not appoint unsaved disciples to spread the good news.

Now, did Judas later become unsaved? Yes. He fell by his sin or transgression.


...

 

[sdowney717]

As for John 10, nowhere does this chapter mention any kind of forced regeneration. Those that follow Jesus who do not fall away do so as a part of their own free will. We know this because there are many verses on how it is man's choice in accepting or rejecting God. Hence, why there will be a Judgment.

...

Jason, regarding John 10, Christ says they have eternal life and will never perish. This is what I have showed you.
If your thoughts are against what Christ has said, then you need to take such thoughts captive, means put them down and believe Christ instead.

2 Corinthians 10:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

2 Corinthians 10:5
[Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

 

[dece870717]

So, if God has changed your nature, why do you still act according to your evil nature? Did He change it or not? Since you still have an evil nature, how is it you can choose God? What difference is there between you, still having an evil nature, and unsaved people, with an evil nature, in coming to God? Is there something within your evil nature that the unsaved do not have, which gives you this freedom?

He changed it in that He gave me a new one that is separate from the old, yet the old is still there, a truly saved Christian ends up with a dual nature, the unsaved have one nature. You are rid of your evil nature at glorification. It goes in this order; Election, Predestination, Calling, Regeneration, Faith, Repentance, Justification, Sanctification, Perseverance, Glorification.

God must regenerate you and in that regeneration you are given a repentant saving faith(there is a faith that does not save). Best analogy I've read so far; "It is logically necessary that electricity precedes light, but it is not logically necessary that light precedes electricity. When electricity is present, the light is the necessary result but not the reverse."

So, you can still have an evil nature, with sin in your life, just as the unsaved, and yet, you somehow think you are going to heaven, while the unsaved aren't. This pretty much sounds like 'self-thinking' salvation. I guess a person should just think he is chosen by God, and boom, he will end up in heaven.

The evil nature is sinful flesh, the new nature is spiritual.

So, salvation is 'thinking about Christ, salvation, the Bible'? And, 'thinking about Christ, salvation, the Bible' means God chose you, right? I have been called all kind of names on this forum, including accursed and a false teacher. Yet, I think about Christ, salvation, and the Bible all the time. Why would I be called all those things if God chose me? I don't agree with 'Reformed' doctrines, but God chose me. Is it believing 'Reformed' doctrines which will save me?

I think you have misunderstood me, it was not until God drew me that my thoughts began to go to God, Judgement, Salvation, Christ, the Bible. The thoughts became so intense that I could no longer ignore all those things as I've done for years, and in that mind drawing/regenerating work of God, I was given a repentant saving faith, instead of having a purely mental faith that had no repentance(the difference between true and false converts).

If you had disagreement with Calvinistic views at first, do you think God could have possibly been trying to lead you another way? Does not the Shepherd lead His sheep down the paths of righteousness and truth? Did you not use your free will to embrace that which you disagreed?

A lot of strongly Calvinist believers/teachers still have lapses of disagreements with it, it is a part of fallen human pride. Like the thoughts that come into my mind when I think about all this, that give me emotional disagreements with it are;

All People deserve the ability to become saved.
It's unfair to all those poor lost souls that are not chosen.
How could God hold people accountable for sin if they need God to regenerate them before they would desire to come to Him?

But when using proper theology;

Understanding sin to be exceedingly sinful.
God to be supremely Holy, righteous, and just.
Sinful mans undeserving of anything good.
Mankind's hatred and unwillingness to come to the true God.
That every sinner deserves Hell, everyone going/are there, deserves to be there and everyone in Heaven and going, doesn't deserve to be there.

When taking all that into account, I learn that my disagreements are because of my fallen human pride. It always comes back to we deserve this, we deserve that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, you do not believe in Christ when He says clearly he gives the sheep eternal life and they never perish.
Looking over your lost salvation verses I see nothing about that happening.
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Meand rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].

26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.

30 I and the Father are One.

The context of the sheep Jesus is talking about are those sheep who FOLLOW Him (See verse 27).

Seeing we do not see too many people walking perfectly like Jesus today and having no explanation as to how they got that way, we can come to the reasonable conclusion that those that FOLLOW Jesus are those who do so of their own free will. For man chooses Jesus of His own free will. Man is not being tricked or changed by God into believing in Christ. If such were the case, then this life would serve no real purpose as to WHY we are here. We are here to live out our FAITH in God. Man is not here to have be lucky if God chooses Him in having FAITH . All people can have faith in God and be saved.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He changed it in that He gave me a new one that is separate from the old, yet the old is still there, a truly saved Christian ends up with a dual nature, the unsaved have one nature. You are rid of your evil nature at glorification. It goes in this order; Election, Predestination, Calling, Regeneration, Faith, Repentance, Justification, Sanctification, Perseverance, Glorification.

God must regenerate you and in that regeneration you are given a repentant saving faith(there is a faith that does not save). Best analogy I've read so far; "It is logically necessary that electricity precedes light, but it is not logically necessary that light precedes electricity. When electricity is present, the light is the necessary result but not the reverse."



The evil nature is sinful flesh, the new nature is spiritual.



I think you have misunderstood me, it was not until God drew me that my thoughts began to go to God, Judgement, Salvation, Christ, the Bible. The thoughts became so intense that I could no longer ignore all those things as I've done for years, and in that mind drawing/regenerating work of God, I was given a repentant saving faith, instead of having a purely mental faith that had no repentance(the difference between true and false converts).



A lot of strongly Calvinist believers/teachers still have lapses of disagreements with it, it is a part of fallen human pride. Like the thoughts that come into my mind when I think about all this, that give me emotional disagreements with it are;

All People deserve the ability to become saved.
It's unfair to all those poor lost souls that are not chosen.
How could God hold people accountable for sin if they need God to regenerate them before they would desire to come to Him?

But when using proper theology;

Understanding sin to be exceedingly sinful.
God to be supremely Holy, righteous, and just.
Sinful mans undeserving of anything good.
Mankind's hatred and unwillingness to come to the true God.
That every sinner deserves Hell, everyone going/are there, deserves to be there and everyone in Heaven and going, doesn't deserve to be there.

When taking all that into account, I learn that my disagreements are because of my fallen human pride. It always comes back to we deserve this, we deserve that.

Yeah, but I just do not see Total Depravity in many verses in the Bible, though. Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30:19, Matthew 11:28, Luke 13:34, Revelation 22:17 are just a few for starters.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, regarding John 10, Christ says they have eternal life and will never perish. This is what I have showed you.
If your thoughts are against what Christ has said, then you need to take such thoughts captive, means put them down and believe Christ instead.

2 Corinthians 10:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

2 Corinthians 10:5
[Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

As for 2 Corinthians. Keep reading on into chapter 13. Paul says to the Corinthians that they are to prove that Christ is in them unless they be reprobate. He says know not your ownselves to the Corinthians. Paul also says in chapter 13 to the Corinthians that he prays that they do no evil, too. Now, why all these warnings if a believer is just going to automatically be regenerated and then forever be saved and in God's Kingdom? Paul says that we are to prove that Christ is in us. To me, this line of thinking runs contrary to the thinking of forced regeneration. For if God regenerates us apart from any decision we made in accepting Christ, then it would not make any sense for us to prove to anyone if Christ is within you or not. According to some levels of Calvinism, a person cannot control whether or not Christ is in them. God simply zaps a person into the Kingdom and puts Christ in them as a part of God's decision. Man's decision on proving Christ is in them does not even enter into the equation according to different levels of Calvinism.


...

 

[sdowney717]

As for 2 Corinthians. Keep reading on into chapter 13. Paul says to the Corinthians that they are to prove that Christ is in them unless they be reprobate. He says know not your ownselves to the Corinthians. Paul also says in chapter 13 to the Corinthians that he prays that they do no evil, too. Now, why all these warnings if a believer is just going to automatically be forever saved and in God's Kingdom? Paul says that we are to prove that Christ is in us. To me, this line of thinking runs contrary to the thinking of forced regeneration.


...

Even so a forced regeneration is not yet salvation as they must believe in the heart to be declared righteous and confession is made unto salvation. They do that since God teaches them who are regenerated.

3 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags (draws, think of water being drawn, the water can not resist either it is led pushed moved towards the direction the one who wishes it to move) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
ALL those taught are those who are drawn and they all come to Christ in belief.

 

[sdowney717]

Yeah, but I just do not see Total Depravity in many verses in the Bible, though. Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30:19, Matthew 11:28, Luke 13:34, Revelation 22:17 are just a few for starters.


...

Only those born of Him, which means God is their Father, so they are the children will be obedient and believe. Of course some do resist, like Paul did. God wins, He can not be ultimately resisted.