Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

If any of the ones who came to Him because they were given to Him by the Father fall away as you say they can, then Jesus will be raising up non believers on the last day. That's just silly IMO.

He's obviously not talking about the Great White Throne judgment when he mentions the last day here.

We'll just go our ways now concerning this. This topic has obviously run it's course for us.

But what if the Bible does in fact talk about how a believer can fall away from the faith?
Would you come to accept that truth and re-adjust your beliefs if it did indeed teach such a fact?

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[Bible Highlighter]

Evidently you DO need that lecture, and some remedial reading, because you certainly missed it here. And following it up with the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense is very revealing.

This is not about me but it is about what does the Word of God say. The Word is the real determining factor here. I get no indication in God's Word that God regenerates us so that we can then have faith to believe in Him. The gospel is preached to people openly and freely to all people. However, in the Calvinistic belief on Total Depravity: Man is depraved and cannot even choose God. So what is the purpose of preaching then? For in the Calvinistic view: It does no good to preach to a dead corpse or to those who have no ability to accept God.

Also, how does God decide which of the lifeless corpses are worthy to be saved? Are they not all bad? What basis of good does God use to choose an individual?


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[FreeGrace2]

But what if the Bible does in fact talk about how a believer can fall away from the faith?
Would you come to accept that truth and re-adjust your beliefs if it did indeed teach such a fact?

...

Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

that's the kind of thing one would expect to hear from someone who believes that "all people are basically good" (completely unbiblical), and who believes that God saves people on the basis of some quality in them that motivates Him to choose them. Since God created them to begin with, then ultimately it is He, and not the person, who makes the choice. All you've done is back it up a level.

Nowhere am I saying that God chooses us based on our past life. Man cannot overcome sin without a regeneration from God and without the Lord living in them. Man simply has free will to choose the Lord or to reject the Lord as their Savior.

Actually, that is very close to a correct biblical statement. The only error in it is this: "nobody is good enough to choose God so as to be regenerated and changed for the better."
No one chooses God in order to be regenerated. They are regenerated so that they will choose God.

Bible verses please.


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[ToBeLoved]

But what if the Bible does in fact talk about how a believer can fall away from the faith?
Would you come to accept that truth and re-adjust your beliefs if it did indeed teach such a fact?

...

The issue is that Jesus saves us. The Word tells us NOTHING can remove us from Christ's right hand because the Father has given us to Christ when we are born again.

So not even we can remove ourselves from Christ's right hand. That is Biblical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Well, here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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[Bible Highlighter]

The issue is that Jesus saves us. The Word tells us NOTHING can remove us from Christ's right hand because the Father has given us to Christ when we are born again.

So not even we can remove ourselves from Christ's right hand. That is Biblical.

Verses.


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[Bible Highlighter]

...the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14,.

As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

What is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.

Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 6:11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Okay, here we see God's people rebelling against God and vexing His Holy Spirit. THEREFORE as a RESULT, God has then TURNED to be their enemy. This does not sound like God forcing anyone to believe or not to believe. This sounds like man's actions making God angry to become their enemy (By which man could have done differently whereby God didn't have to be their enemy).

Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In fact, here in the Bible believers are told to "harden not your hearts." Again, this doesn't make any sense for the Bible to tell us this if we were to automatically not harden our hearts as a part of some regeneration by God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It is indeed the sheep that follow him. It's not the sheep that don't follow him.

But "Calvinism" nevertheless wins again on the "changed my mind" argument that you've been promoting.

No. Jesus gets angry at the Pharisees. You can't angry at a dog if it is infected by some disease whereby it makes it aggressive. It is only acting upon some kind of uncontrollable impulse. For the reason why a parent gets upset at their child for doing something wrong is because they know that their child could have chosen to do good instead. But if the child was mind controlled to do something, and the parent knew that, then the parent really could not get mad at their child for their actions. We can see God's Wrath against those in Sodom and Gommorah. In fact, here we see Abraham pleading with God to save the city based on how many righteous men lived there. Abraham asks, shall not the judge of the Earth do right? So what happened? Did God do right? Did God spare any of the righteous in that city and do right? You betcha.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It makes just as much sense as the fact that Christ died for everyone. Both are clearly and plainly stated in Scripture.

I don't disagree that Christ died for the sins of the entire world. But that doesn't mean everyone is saved (As I am sure you will agree). The thing is that salvation is not in thinking we can just accept Christ and think we are saved from thereon after forever with no change in our life. Salvation.... True salvation is in abiding in the Son of God (Which results in good fruit within one's life).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Here is a good article that I found that disagrees with Calvinism.

"Here are some Scriptures soundly refute... the Calvinist TULIP:

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah 1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."


U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."


L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."


I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1 "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."​

Source Used:
http://heresies.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/calvinism.html

 

[nobdysfool]

This is not about me but it is about what does the Word of God say. The Word is the real determining factor here.

I never said it wasn't. My point was that you were trying to establish doctrinal points on the wrong understanding of the meaning of a word. Further, claiming that you don't need a lecture about English word meanings, because you have studied them and then turn around and make such an obvious error, means that either you're lying about knowing the subject matter, or you weren't paying much attention to it when you were studying it.

I get no indication in God's Word that God regenerates us so that we can then have faith to believe in Him. The gospel is preached to people openly and freely to all people.

It's a logical conclusion. Dead people can't do anything. How can a man dead in sins, (which makes him, in reality, a "dead man walking", because his fate is certain if he remains unsaved) produce out his own cold, stony, dead-in-sins heart, any kind of faith that would be pleasing to God?

However, in the Calvinistic belief on Total Depravity: Man is depraved and cannot even choose God. So what is the purpose of preaching then? For in the Calvinistic view: It does no good to preach to a dead corpse or to those who have no ability to accept God.

Just like you don't want a lecture on the meanings of English words, I don't want you to attempt to tell us what Calvinism teaches, or what Calvinists believe. First big reason: You are not qualified, being an obvious Calvinism-hater. Number two: these are obvious "talking points" from other Calvinism-haters. Third, you're trying to hang a hyper-Calvinist teaching on all Calvinists. That is dishonest. Preaching is how all are reached for the kingdom. We aren't told who will and won't believe, we are told to preach, and God will handle the rest.

Also, how does God decide which of the lifeless corpses are worthy to be saved? Are they not all bad? What basis of good does God use to choose an individual?
...

What makes you so certain that God's choice of an individual is made based on something within them? Since God made them, and presumably placed that quality or qualities within them, there really is no choice. He intended to choose them when He made them, so He made them as He wanted them to be. That's not choice, that's a foregone conclusion.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But what if the Bible does in fact talk about how a believer can fall away from the faith?
Would you come to accept that truth and re-adjust your beliefs if it did indeed teach such a fact?
...

I repeat again what I said.

"If any of the ones who came to Him because they were given to Him by the Father fall away as you say they can, then Jesus will be raising up non believers on the last day. That's just silly IMO.

He's obviously not talking about the Great White Throne judgment when he mentions the last day here."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never said it wasn't. My point was that you were trying to establish doctrinal points on the wrong understanding of the meaning of a word. Further, claiming that you don't need a lecture about English word meanings, because you have studied them and then turn around and make such an obvious error, means that either you're lying about knowing the subject matter, or you weren't paying much attention to it when you were studying it.

Again, I ask you to stop making this about me. The Word of God is plain for all to read. In my opinion, the wrong interpretion usually takes place when one gets their ideas from others first before reading the Word for themselves. It is in my view that this is at the point when a person begins to see something that is not there in God's Word. For I believe no Calvinist today just read the Bible and started to see Calvinisim in the Bible all on their own.

Anyways, you are making this about me because you just said now that am either lying or that I was not paying attention; As if you could not be wrong yourself in your interpretation of God's Word. So again, I ask you to respond kindly with God's Word as your defense and not some "I am right and you are wrong" type statements.

It's a logical conclusion. Dead people can't do anything. How can a man dead in sins, (which makes him, in reality, a "dead man walking", because his fate is certain if he remains unsaved) produce out his own cold, stony, dead-in-sins heart, any kind of faith that would be pleasing to God?

Because the Scriptures do not say that man who is dead in his sins is not capable of receiving life.
Deuteronomy 30:19 says God sets before us life and death and He desires for us to CHOOSE life.
Jesus says, come to me.
The Spirit and the bride both say for the reader to come drink of the water of life freely.
Joshua says CHOOSE this day in whom ye will serve.
In Genesis 4, God told Cain he had a choice in doing either good or sin.


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[Marvin Knox]

So in reality, Calvinism removes believing on Christ as a condition for going to heaven. Interesting. I don't believe that for a minute.

Nor does any Calvinist in the world believe that. And you darn well know it.

The "reality" is that every Calvinist in history believes that believing on Christ is a condition for going to Heaven. They also explain how it is that anyone can believe on Christ and go to Heaven considering their "natural" condition as explained clearly in the Bible and which testimony they believe.

So, you are here admitting that those who are going to hell weren't "obviously not chosen". You have (maybe unintentionally) proven my claim that Calvinism provides an excuse for those going to hell. They simply were not chosen for heaven.

Thanks!!

There is no excuse for any sinner who finds himself in Hell. His sins have "simply" found him out.

Sinners who find themselves in Hell are there not "simply" because they were not chosen to experience the irresistible drawing and calling of God.

They are not there simply because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

They would be in Hell even if Jesus Christ had not died for their sins.

They would be in Hell even if there never been a Jesus Chris.

They are there because of their sins - plain and simple.

It's no wonder you aren't ready to eat meat. Your still in need of the basic milk of the Word.

This is all just Christianity 101 stuff.

What silly games you play here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I repeat again what I said.

"If any of the ones who came to Him because they were given to Him by the Father fall away as you say they can, then Jesus will be raising up non believers on the last day. That's just silly IMO.

He's obviously not talking about the Great White Throne judgment when he mentions the last day here."

If you will take note of John 17:12, Jesus says to the Father that He (the Father) had given the disciples to Him. Then Jesus says He has kept them all except one of them. Jesus says he lost one of them. The Father does not give lost people to Jesus (Who stayed lost). Judas was at one time given to Jesus by the Father and saved. He was an appointed disciple with power from God. But Judas fell by his transgression. Judas became unsaved.

But being raised up on the last day is in fact talking about taking place after the Judgment because Revelation says the rest of the dead (i.e. those who are not in the Millennium) will live after the thousand years is finished.


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[sdowney717]

Well, here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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Thanks be to God who gives us who are elect an eternal salvation that can not be lost since He has chosen us to be obedient to Jesus and sprinkled with His blood..

1 Peter 1 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Peter, an apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 [Born anew] into an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay [imperishable], unsullied and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.

6 [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations,

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nor does any Calvinist in the world believe that. And you darn well know it.

I think he is saying that the Calvinist defines "belief" differently than how God's Word defines it.
A lot of Calvinists define "belief" as a result of God regenerating a person first.
However, the Bible simply tells men to believe without telling them to wait on some kind of regeneration.
The Bible does not say salvation is only for a select few (Even though God knows not everyone will accept His free love gift).

The "reality" is that every Calvinist in history believes that believing on Christ is a condition for going to Heaven. They also explain how it is that anyone can believe on Christ and go to Heaven considering their "natural" condition as explained clearly in the Bible and which testimony they believe.

So God regenerates a person so as to have the choice to accept or reject Him? Or does God regenerate only the person He knows will accept Him? If that is what you are saying, then how is that fair to the person who had no choice otherwise?

There is no excuse for any sinner who finds himself in Hell. His sins have "simply" found him out.

Is there going to be a punishment or Judgment for animals?

Sinners who find themselves in Hell are there not "simply" because they were not chosen to experience the irresistible drawing and calling of God.

They are not there simply because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

They are there because of their sins - plain and simple.

What silly games you play here.

But how does God decide then? What makes God choose one sinner over another? Is there something good in them that weighs in on His decision of choosing them?


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[sdowney717]

If you will take note of John 17:12, Jesus says to the Father that He (the Father) had given the disciples to Him. Then Jesus says He has kept them all except one of them. Jesus says he lost one of them. The Father does not give lost people to Jesus (Who stayed lost). Judas was at one time given to Jesus by the Father and saved. He was an appointed disciple with power from God. But Judas fell by his transgression. Judas became unsaved.

But being raised up on the last day is in fact talking about taking place after the Judgment because Revelation says the rest of the dead (i.e. those who are not in the Millennium) will live after the thousand years is finished.


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The only one lost was Judas, Christ says all the others given to Him he keeps.