Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Yep...

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...race_in_redemption/04_SLJ_method_of_grace.pdf

Yes, I believe no man can come unto the Father unless the Father draws them, too. But God is concerned with EVERYONE being saved and not just a select few. For the Scriptures say that Christ draws ALL men unto Himself. Jesus stands at the door of a person's heart and knocks to come in. If anyone opens the door then he can come into their heart and life. Jesus does use a battering ram to knock down the door so as to come into people's hearts. He knocks so as to enter. A person can refuse to hear the knock or they can answer it.

If not...

Then the Judgment is a joke and a farce and God cannot blame anyone for their actions in not choosing Him because it was God who was the One who made folks to believe or not to believe.


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[Hammster]

So what? Not every single doctrine in Scripture is found in a single text. You've made no point.

Actually, that was my point.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, don't be grouchy with me when you're using salvation here and then faith there.

God provides faith, but that provision of faith must be kept or lost by us. Grace --> freedom, and not (Pelagian-wise) freedom --> grace.

So at one point, everyone has faith, correct?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do believe that there must be some kind of change by God.

I and Calvinists in general believe that man's free-will is not over-ridden. His newly generated spirit simply leads him to make the right choices.

I believe that that is a pertinent distinction. You probably do not. Hence the discussion.

But does God try and draw and call those He knows who will not repent? Does Jesus stand at the door of a person's heart and knock knowing that they will not accept Him or open the door? Or does God only knock upon the door of the hearts of individuals He knows of whom will accept Him?

In a word --- YES.

Many Calvinists will disagree with me on that.

Ufortunately people tend to associate the bad with a particular belief name. For example: A person can start a church and call it a Catholic Church but they could in no way practice anything that the Catholic Church teaches. Now, why would they do that? Why associate with darkness? In other words, I would stop calling yourself a Calvinist because many believers could be misunderstood into thinking you believe you are against a person having a free will choice in choosing God. Just call yourself a Christian instead. It would be easier and would erase any confusion by others.

It becomes a matter of at what level we are talking about when we say "submit to God".

Many Calvinists will say that natural men cannot submit on any level to God. I believe the scriptures give examples which say otherwise.

It probably needs to be a more nuanced statement than that to be understood.

But in a word (if that is required) -- YES.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen by God IMO.

Look. I am not denying that God did not plan salvation since the foundation of the world for man. That is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the "decision of belief" on behalf of the person. Was it God that ultimately made a person to believe or was it God that was doing something so as to make them believe while God chose others to not believe?


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[Hammster]

I see that a synergist has taken another verse out of context.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. - Revelation 3:20

Who is this written to? Let's look.

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. - Revelation 3:14

And nothing about Jesus knocking on hearts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, it boils down to this!

If God is the one who ultimately makes a person believe then they cannot be held accountable at a Judgment because it was God who made some to believe and others to not believe. In other words, there is not going to be a Judgment for Animals. Yet, animals did many bad things thru out history. So why Judge man for his bad actions if he could not help but to do what he did like some kind of animal?

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[Received]

So at one point, everyone has faith, correct?

No.

 

[Hammster]

In other words, it boils down to this!

If God is the one who ultimately makes a person believe then they cannot be held accountable at a Judgment because it was God who made some to believe and others to not believe. In other words, there is not going to be a Judgment for Animals. Yet, animals did many bad things thru out history. So why Judge man for his bad actions if he could not help but to do what he did like some kind of animal?

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Who said man cannot help but sin?

 

[Hammster]

No.

God provides faith

How, then, does God determine who gets the faith?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see that a synergist has taken another verse out of context.

Definition of Synergism:

Theology. the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

So you disagree with this concept, and yet you say we have free will in choosing God (Which would then make you a synergist).

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. - Revelation 3:20

Who is this written to? Let's look.

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. - Revelation 3:14

And nothing about Jesus knocking on hearts.

You are talking confusion. That is obviously not the context. The text is clear that this is talking about Jesus telling others to repent in the verse prior (verse 19). Jesus says I will come in and sup with a person. Jesus says elsewhere to the woman at the well that he has living water for a woman to partake in. Jesus says elsewhere that we are to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. This is speaking in spiritual terms of course of how we are to walk with Christ and allow His good work to flow thru our hearts and lives.

Angels don't stand at a person's heart and desire to come sup with a person. This is talking about Jesus coming to live in a person's heart.


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[sdowney717]

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
John 3:3

The simpler the better. You must be regenerated first to see and enter the kingdom second. So regeneration comes before justification-salvation

 

[Hammster]

Definition of Synergism:

Theology. the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

So you disagree with this concept, and yet you say we have free will in choosing God (Which would then make you a synergist).

Man does not cooperate with the Spirit in regeneration. So I'm not a synergist.

 

[Received]

How, then, does God determine who gets the faith?

I don't know how the microwave works, Hammster.

 

[Hammster]

You are talking confusion. The text is clear that this is talking about Jesus telling others to repent in the verse prior (verse 19). Jesus says I will come in and sup with a person. Jesus says elsewhere to the woman at the well that he has living water for a woman to partake in. Jesus says elsewhere that we are to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. This is speaking in spiritual terms of course of how we are to walk with Christ and allow His good work to flow thru our hearts and lives.

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. - Revelation 3:14

Who was Jesus talking to? The church at Laodicia. You have a habit of just tossing verses out without actually understanding what's being said, and when questioned you just throw out more verses as if that changes the context.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know how the microwave works, Hammster.

You seemed confident enough to make the statements.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. - Revelation 3:14

Who was Jesus talking to? The church at Laodicia. You have a habit of just tossing verses out without actually understanding what's being said, and when questioned you just throw out more verses as if that changes the context.

The church of Laodicia can be ANYBODY. People today can have the same Laodicia spirit about them today. The church is not a building but it is a people.


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[Hammster]

The church of Laodicia can be ANYBODY. People today can have the same Laodicia spirit about them today. The church is not a building but it is a people.


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And where do you find that in scripture?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Man does not cooperate with the Spirit in regeneration. So I'm not a synergist.

Man had submitted to God of their own free will which then lead to the Spirit regenerating them. So yes, man plays a part on whether or not the Spirit will regenerate a person.

BTW ~ The Spirit does all the regeneration. But it is the man who must first submit to God of his own free will before that can happen. That is not what the definition of Synergism is saying. It is not saying that man helps to regenerate himself. It is saying man cooperates with God in the fact that he submits first and then God regenerates them.


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[sdowney717]

The church of Laodicia can be ANYBODY. People today can have the same Laodicia spirit about them today. The church is not a building but it is a people.


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Not exactly. Christ was speaking to the people in that church. The assumption is they were still part of the church even though they were having lots of problems. They are not of the world or they would not be a church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And where do you find that in scripture?

Where do we find that we have to confess like David?
Where do we find that we have to believe like the jailer?
It is implied that we can also do the same as these other believers.
Why? Because we are believers, too.

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