Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

Really? Are you being serious? Sdowny thinks Romans 3:11 is saying that none (i.e. the unrighteous) cannot seek after God. And Dr Steve believes one must be changed so as to enjoy liver and onions.


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And how is that hyper-Calvinism?

 

[drstevej]

I am not a hyper Calvinist. In fact I am a Christmas Calvinist >>> No-L

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Go back and look at what I asked. You mentioned the jailer. In ANY definition of the words, does it say when or if he was regenerated or justified?

That's not the point. The point is that you need to be straight with me. Give me a time line of how it works for a person in coming to the faith.

Is it?

1. A sinner chooses God of their own free will.
2. They are then regenerated or changed spiritually.

or is it?

1. God regenerates the sinner first.
2. Then they are a believer and can then choose God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I am not a hyper Calvinist. In fact I am a Christmas Calvinist >>> No-L

But you made it sound like people are MADE to like liver and onions as if it was something that was not a part of their natural ability. Meaning, it was something God was FORCING upon them.


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[drstevej]

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
John 3:3

 

[drstevej]

But you made it sound like people are MADE to like liver and onions as if it was something that was not a part of their natural ability. Meaning, it was something God was FORCING upon them.


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As a seminary prof of mine used to say, "God tickles our willer."

 

[Hammster]

The jailer asks Paul and Silas what must he do to be saved. Does Paul and Silas say,

"There is NOTHING you can do." "You have to wait and see if God regenerates you first and then you will see whether or not you can come and accept the Lord."?​

But was this what Paul and Silas had said to the jailer? No. Most definitely not.

Paul and Silas said,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."​

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That's not the point. The point is that you need to be straight with me. Give me a time line of how it works for a person in coming to the faith.

Is it?

1. A sinner chooses God of their own free will.
2. They are then regenerated or changed spiritually.

or is it?

1. God regenerates the sinner first.
2. Then they are a believer and can then choose God.


....

I just posted both so you can see where you went off track. I assume that you used Acts 16 to prove that faith comes before regeneration. I'm asking where regeneration and justification are mentioned in that passage.

The answer is that they are not. So you you have to assume your conclusion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And how is that hyper-Calvinism?

What? Hyper Calvinism is the teaching that man is depraved and has no ability whatsoever to come to God on their own power. Granted, I am not denying that Father and Christ does not draw a person. Obviously nobody would be able to come to God if God was not calling them. But God is not wiling that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. So it is God's will that all people are to repent.

In other words, Noah being a preacher of righteousness was just a big fat joke in your world view. The people in the global flood did not have the capacity to understand Noah's preaching and come to God. So Noah's preaching was just useless and dumb. It served no purpose.


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[drstevej]

Hyper Calvinism is the teaching that man is depraved and has no ability whatsoever to come to God on their own power.

Not hyper Calvinism at all. That is the standard view of Calvinism. It's called Total Depravity. The "T" of the TULIP.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As a seminary prof of mine used to say, "God tickles our willer."

The Scriptures say, Christ draws all men unto Himself. In Revelation, the Bride says, .... "Come." This means that the person coming is not of the bride yet. However, they can be a part of the Bride.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Not hyper Calvinism at all. That is the standard view of Calvinism. It's called Total Depravity. The "T" of the TULIP.

Yes, I am aware of "Total Depravity." I used to believe in it. Okay, so if you do not believe in the "T", then explain to me how it works. Where does regeneration come into play in regards to a believer's free will choice in choosing God?

Can a person refuse the tickling of God in accepting Him? Or are those who reject Him, never tickled to believe?
Or does God only tickle the free will of those in whom He knows will accept Him?

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[Received]

Yes. Can you give me an answer?

Maybe I'm really just missing it here, but God provides salvation, you know?

 

[drstevej]

The Scriptures say, Christ draws all men unto Himself. In Revelation, the Bride says, .... "Come." This means that the person coming is not of the bride yet. However, they can be a part of the Bride.


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John 11:43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth." 44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth.

Lazarus was dead as a hammer when Jesus called him...

11:39 Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways?
2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul.""

You're asking this question, and continue to believe in OSAS?
You're now seeing this ludicrous situation for what it is? …

What I see as ludicrous is the belief that one can lose their salvation.

Here are some verses that clearly teach eternal security.

Eph 1:13,14 - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1. having believed we are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit

2. the Holy Spirit is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance

3. having believed, we are God's possession

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1. having believed (1:13) we were sealed for the DAY OF REDEMPTION

2. no verses that even suggest or hint that anyone, including our selves can break this seal

3. this seal is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (1:14)

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

1. here Paul repeats what he wrote to the Ephesians. Those who have believed have the Holy Spirit as a deposit which is a guarantee for the day of redemption, which is "what is to come".

2. all these verses prove that those who have believed have been sealed as a guarantee for the day of redemption.

This same author also described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Paul taught eternal security.

Unbelievers who are into habitual sinning are destined to hell.

I disagree. Unbelievers, regardless of how they live, are destined to hell.

Believers who are into habitual sinning are destined to heaven.

Yes, this is my view.

 

[Hammster]

What? Hyper Calvinism is the teaching that man is depraved and has no ability whatsoever to come to God on their own power. Granted, I am not denying that Father and Christ does not draw a person. Obviously nobody would be able to come to God if God was not calling them. But God is not wiling that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. So it is God's will that all people are to repent.

In other words, Noah being a preacher of righteousness was just a big fat joke in your world view. The people in the global flood did not have the capacity to understand Noah's preaching and come to God. So Noah's preaching was just useless and dumb. It served no purpose.


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You might want to look into what hyper-Calvinism actually teaches. That way you won't make incorrect, or partially correct, statements.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just posted both so you can see where you went off track. I assume that you used Acts 16 to prove that faith comes before regeneration. I'm asking where regeneration and justification are mentioned in that passage.

The answer is that they are not. So you you have to assume your conclusion.

You are still being evasive in what you believe. Tell it to me straight. Break it down to me in a timeline.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You might want to look into what hyper-Calvinism actually teaches. That way you won't make incorrect, or partially correct, statements.

That really does not explain to me in what you believe, though. Again, you are being fuzzy about what you believe. Talk to me straight. Lay it out for me.


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[Marvin Knox]

But you made it sound like people are MADE to like liver and onions as if it was something that was not a part of their natural ability. Meaning, it was something God was FORCING upon them. ...

People are not MADE to like liver and onions.

They are MADE a "new creation".

This new creation simply loves liver and onions and always will.

The old man still hates liver and onions and always will.

No one can make him like liver and onions.

In fact, no one can make him do anything good at all.

He needs to be put to death. Crucifixion is God's method of choice.

Everything the old man does from the moment that God created the new man will be burned up like so much wood, hay and stubble.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe I'm really just missing it here, but God provides salvation, you know?

Maybe you are just forgetting the discussion

Specifically it goes with salvation: we can't even have faith without God helping us and revealing himself to us. But really it applies to everything, e.g., we can't breathe without the oxygen God created. Independence is an illusion to the Christian because we are by definition dependent. Independence is a purely secular idea.

Again you are using the phrase "helping us". So concerning faith, how does God help us? What does He do? It has to be something besides revealing Himself since Romans 1 says He's evident to everyone.

So how does God help us concerning faith?

 

[Hammster]

That really does not explain to me in what you believe, though. Again, you are being fuzzy about what you believe. Talk to me straight. Lay it out for me.


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I'm not being fuzzy. I'm telling you that you are incorrect in what you think hyper-Calvinism is, and that you should look more into it. If that's not clear, perhaps that explains why you have difficulties understanding what we tell you.