Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

I currently don't see any hyper-Calvinists around, though they show up every now and again. So stop with the straw man argument. Don't make us defend something we don't believe.

But why call yourself a Calvinist? I do not get it. Do you deny free will on some level? If so, then how do you do so?


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[Hammster]

By why call yourself a Calvinist? I do not get it. Do you deny free will on some level? If so, then how do you do so?


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Concerning free will

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-37#post-68998963

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is a little parable I wrote to illustrate the Calvinist perspective on free will.

The "Liver & Onions Parable"
The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will

Suppose you detest L&O. The sight and smell makes you sick.



Just once, to appease a friend that insisted that L&O really is good tasting, you touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

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Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

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BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!

​

The jailer asks Paul and Silas what must he do to be saved. Does Paul and Silas say,

"There is NOTHING you can do." "You have to wait and see if God regenerates you first and then you will see whether or not you can come and accept the Lord."?​

But was this what Paul and Silas had said to the jailer? No. Most definitely not.

Paul and Silas said,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."​

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[Bible Highlighter]

I currently don't see any hyper-Calvinists around, though they show up every now and again. So stop with the straw man argument. Don't make us defend something we don't believe.

Well, Sdowney and DrSteveJ appear to believe in a form of Hyper Calvinism from my understanding of what they said so far. So why are you not in argument against them? Why are you not concerned that they are essentially saying God makes some to believe and others not to believe?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Let's look at Joshua 24. Who did Joshua tell them to choose between?

What is your point? Make your case. Are you now saying that they were not capable of choosing which master they want to serve?


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[sdowney717]

In Romans 3:11, Paul is referencing the heathen in Psalm 14:1-5. Paul's point of Romans 3 is that both the Jews and the Gentiles are both are on equal footing and in sin and can come to receive salvation and grace the same way by repenting and believing in Jesus Christ. However, Psalm 14 is not saying that all the heathens did not come to God, though. We know that Rahab joined God's people. We also know that the Ninevites had believed God by repenting at the preaching of Jonah. The point is that Psalm 14:1-5 is saying that the majority of the heathen did not follow God. Paul references this Old Testament text as a part of his argument in Romans 3. So Romans 3:11 cannot support the belief that it is talking about ALL people. For we clearly know that this is not the case according to the context that Paul was referencing.


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Actually your bringing up a good point that some old testament heathen joined themselves to Israel.
However many OT verses point to God giving some the new heart to know Him as in Ezekiel 11.
Even so few there were mentioned in the OT.
Romans 3 still points out that word 'none' is in force. So this describes their spiritual condition before God regenerates someone.
Regardless of whether some heathen did whatever, before they did, God must change them on the inside. Since none understand or seek for God and Christ, He has to go and get them Himself.

 

[Hammster]

The jailer asks Paul and Silas what must he do to be saved. Does Paul and Silas say,

"There is NOTHING you can do." "You have to wait and see if God regenerates you first and then you will see whether or not you can come and accept the Lord."?​

But was this what Paul and Silas had said to the jailer? No. Most definitely not.

Paul and Silas said,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."​

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Does it say that he was regenerated or justified? If not, it must not have happened, right?

 

[Hammster]

Well, Sdowney and DrSteveJ appear to believe in a form of Hyper Calvinism from my understanding of what they said so far. So why are you not in argument against them? Why are you not concerned that they are essentially saying God makes some to believe and others not to believe?


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Maybe it's your understanding that's in question.

 

[sdowney717]

The jailer asks Paul and Silas what must he do to be saved. Does Paul and Silas say,

"There is NOTHING you can do." "You have to wait and see if God regenerates you first and then you will see whether or not you can come and accept the Lord."?​

But was this what Paul and Silas had said to the jailer? No. Most definitely not.

Paul and Silas said,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."​

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You're just running way down an odd track with that comment!
Obviously from a human POV, we don't see the regeneration, it is like an invisible wind.
The Holy Spirit is not visible.

Luke 17:20
[ The Coming of the Kingdom ] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come withobservation;

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does it say that he was regenerated or justified? If not, it must not have happened, right?

Please stop talking in fuzzy terms. Just tell me when the jailer had:

(a) Chosen God of his own free will.
(b) When he was regenerated.


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[Hammster]

What is your point? Make your case. Are you now saying that they were not capable of choosing which master they want to serve?


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And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15

There's the choices he gave.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're just running way down an odd track with that comment!
Obviously from a human POV, we don't see the regeneration, it is like an invisible wind.
The Holy Spirit is not visible.

Luke 17:20
[ The Coming of the Kingdom ] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come withobservation;

So you are saying Paul and Silas KNEW that the jailer was going to bellieve?
In other words, their words do not suggest your type of belief of telling people to wait for regeneration so that they can believe. Paul and Silas just plainly told them to believe in Jesus. That's it. It is not as complicated as you are making it out to be.


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[Hammster]

Please stop talking in fuzzy terms. Just tell me when the jailer had:

(a) Chosen God of his own free will.
(b) When he was regenerated.


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Fuzzy? Regeneration and justification are fuzzy?

The fact is, the text doesn't say. It's a narrative of what happened by observation. It's not didactic in telling what happened in a spiritual sense. So there are things that can be learned, and some that cannot.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15

There's the choices he gave.

So they had a choice to either choose God or not choose God, right?


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[Hammster]

So they had a choice to either choose God or not choose God, right?


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Is that the choice Joshua gave them?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Fuzzy? Regeneration and justification are fuzzy?

People have different terms and meanings for these words. Granted, most agree on what Regeneration is. But you are not giving me a time table as to when Regeneration happens in relation to one's free will choice in accepting the Lord.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Is that the choice Joshua gave them?

Your being fuzzy again. Please stop that. Talk plainly and to the point.


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[Hammster]

People have different terms and meanings for these words. Granted, most agree on what Regeneration is. But you are not giving me a time table as to when Regeneration happens in relation to one's free will choice in accepting the Lord.


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Go back and look at what I asked. You mentioned the jailer. In ANY definition of the words, does it say when or if he was regenerated or justified?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe it's your understanding that's in question.

Really? Are you being serious? Sdowny thinks Romans 3:11 is saying that none (i.e. the unrighteous) cannot seek after God. And Dr Steve believes one must be changed so as to enjoy liver and onions.


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[Hammster]

Your being fuzzy again. Please stop that. Talk plainly and to the point.


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Was that a difficult question? It addressed the text I recently posted. But since this seems hard, I will tell you that Joshua did not tell them to choose between God and idols. I hope that's clear enough.