Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

The people that God sent Peter to preach and be saved, justified, baptized by Christ in the Holy Spirit, God tells Peter they have been cleansed, meaning regenerated.
Acts 11
8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.

So not common, they have the new hearts, as the Psalm says.
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a cleanheart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

When God declared them clean, this is as when Christ tells the disciples,
John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

And that would be Christ's words to them, not Peters words. Spoken to them by His Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What would be interesting is if you could demonstrate how anyone could be judged if all sins are atoned for.

Thanks in advance.

Jesus did not pay the price for all of mankind's sins to automatically save man even without accepting His free gift. I do not believe in Universal Salvationism. I said Jesus paid the price for all mankind's sins so as to offer the free gift of salvation. Meaning, man has to receive the free gift of salvation in order to be saved.

Anyways, here is Biblical proof that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).​

Pretty clear here in this verse. He is not only the propitiation for OUR sins (us believers), but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.
No doubt you think this is talking to the Jew and not to the believer. But John does not make that distinction of talking to the believing Jew only. His epistle is addressed to believers.

Another verse is in John chapter 1.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).​

Again, this passage does not say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of only some in the world.

John 3:16 says God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. Scripture does not say God so loved only some in the world.

Revelation 22:17 says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."​

Did you catch that? This verse says that the Bride says for the reader to.... "Come." Meaning, it is a calling to the person who is not a part of the Bride yet. The verse ends with saying that they can take the water of life freely. This means it is an open invitation to all. There is no forced conversion or regeneration happening here. A person has to agree or cooperate with God in order to be regenerated spiritually. God does not zap people into His Kingdom against their wills. It doesn't work like that.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus paid the price for all sins not so that man can now live however he like and he is now off the hook. I said Jesus paid the price for all mankind's sins so as to offer the free gift of salvation. Meaning, man has to receive the free gift of salvation in order to be saved.

Biblical proof that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).​

Pretty clear here in this verse. He is not only the propitiation for OUR sins (us believers), but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.
No doubt you think this is talking to the Jew and not to the believer. But John does not make that distinction of talking to the believing Jew only. His epistle is addressed to believers.

Another verse is in John chapter 1.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).​

Again, this passage does not say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of only some in the world.

John 3:16 says God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. Scripture does not say God so loved only some in the world.

Revelation 22:17 says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."​

Did you catch that? This verse says that the Bride says for the reader to.... "Come." Meaning, it is calling to the person who is not a part of the Bride yet. The verse ends with saying that they can take the water of life freely. This means it is an open invitation to all. There is no forced conversion or regeneration happening here. A person has to agree or cooperate with God in order to be regenerated spiritually. God does not zap people into His Kingdom against their wills. It doesn't work like that.


...

Revelation 22:17 says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
What stops them from coming?
Clearly their fallen selves.
Why did Adam and Eve hide from God?

How about this for why they don't come from Jesus saying,
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Revelation 22:17 says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
What stops them from coming?
Clearly their fallen selves.

Non-sense. You can't tell someone to come if they are going to just automatically come anyways.

Why did Adam and Eve hide from God?

They hid because they were ashamed about their nakedness and they were afraid of the punishment. God did not make them to sin. And they were not without the ability to come back to God, either.

How about this for why they don't come from Jesus saying,
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

The KJV says "Unless his deeds should be reproved." Meaning.... unless they acknowledge their sin before God and repent of their sins. For God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Not some. But ALL. For nobody can be held accountable at a Judgment if it was God that forced them to believe or not to believe. Think man. Think.


...

 

[Hammster]

Jesus did not pay the price for all of mankind's sins to automatically save man even without accepting His free gift. I do not believe in Universal Salvationism. I said Jesus paid the price for all mankind's sins so as to offer the free gift of salvation. Meaning, man has to receive the free gift of salvation in order to be saved.

Anyways, here is Biblical proof that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).​

Pretty clear here in this verse. He is not only the propitiation for OUR sins (us believers), but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.
No doubt you think this is talking to the Jew and not to the believer. But John does not make that distinction of talking to the believing Jew only. His epistle is addressed to believers.

Another verse is in John chapter 1.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).​

Again, this passage does not say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of only some in the world.

John 3:16 says God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. Scripture does not say God so loved only some in the world.

Revelation 22:17 says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."​

Did you catch that? This verse says that the Bride says for the reader to.... "Come." Meaning, it is a calling to the person who is not a part of the Bride yet. The verse ends with saying that they can take the water of life freely. This means it is an open invitation to all. There is no forced conversion or regeneration happening here. A person has to agree or cooperate with God in order to be regenerated spiritually. God does not zap people into His Kingdom against their wills. It doesn't work like that.


...

If He took away the sins of the world, that means they are gone, right?

 

[sdowney717]

Non-sense. You can't tell someone to come if they are going to just automatically come anyways.



They hid because they were ashamed about their nakedness and they were afraid of the punishment. God did not make them to sin. And they were not without the ability to come back to God, either.



The KJV says "Unless his deeds should be reproved." Meaning.... unless they acknowledge their sin before God and repent of their sins. For God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Not some. But ALL. For nobody can be held accountable at a Judgment if it was God that forced them to believe or not to believe. Think man. Think.


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I dont have to think, scripture already says, from Christ's own lips, that man loves darkness (Satan), not the light (Christ) and that is why they do not come to Christ.
You're not going to come willingly to that which you hate.
That is the whole point of regeneration coming first, to renew a right spirit in people and give them a clean heart. When God does that, then HE teaches them and then they believe in Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If He took away the sins of the world, that means they are gone, right?

Well, there are many sayings in the Bible that one can twist to their advantage to make it say something that it doesn't say with a cursory reading. Atheists love to twist the Bible and many passages that sound like it says one thing with a surface reading. But the atheist does not pray to God or for the understanding when they read God's Word, though. The atheist does not compare Scripture with Scripture and is concerned about the truth.

Anyways, think of it in terms of Christ paying off a person's debt by going to all their creditors and telling them that their debt is paid as soon as they agree to sign the contract. The money would sit in an escrow account and be ready to pay off his creditors as soon as the signature was given. But the debt is paid. It is sitting there in the Escrow account ready to be delivered.


...

 

[Hammster]

Well, there are many sayings in the Bible that one can twist to their advantage to make it say something that it doesn't say with a cursory reading. Atheists love to twist the Bible and many passages that sound like it says one thing with a surface reading. But the atheist does not pray to God or for the understanding when they read God's Word, though. The atheist does not compare Scripture with Scripture and is concerned about the truth.

Anyways, think of it in terms of Christ paying off a person's debt by going to all their creditors and telling them that their debt is paid as soon as they agree to sign the contract. The money would sit in an escrow account and be ready to pay off his creditors as soon as the signature was given. But the debt is paid. It is sitting there in the Escrow account ready to be delivered.


...

So how do you know that John had in mind an escrow account?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, in your world view: Hitler cannot be to blame before Jesus at the Judgment because it was God who made Him to not believe in the first place. For in Calvinism: Hitler will to say to the Lord that his sins were never paid for, and thus he had no opportunity to accept God's free gift of grace. So Hitler could not technically be judged because salvation was never really offered to him. He was created as a condemned man. God did not make a way of salvation for him. God just made it so that Hitler would be created so as not to believe.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So how do you know that John had in mind an escrow account?

It's not a new concept. When a person paid off a person's prison sentence, they could be free to leave the prison. But if they do not want to leave their prison (or if they seek to be imprisoned elsewhere), then that is on them. A person has to come to terms with agreeing or cooperating with God.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Well, there are many sayings in the Bible that one can twist to their advantage to make it say something that it doesn't say with a cursory reading. Atheists love to twist the Bible and many passages that sound like it says one thing with a surface reading. But the atheist does not pray to God or for the understanding when they read God's Word, though. The atheist does not compare Scripture with Scripture and is concerned about the truth.

Anyways, think of it in terms of Christ paying off a person's debt by going to all their creditors and telling them that their debt is paid as soon as they agree to sign the contract. The money would sit in an escrow account and be ready to pay off his creditors as soon as the signature was given. But the debt is paid. It is sitting there in the Escrow account ready to be delivered.


...

They just refuse to come to the heavenly party!
Unless they are regenerated, they hate God and hate Christ.
Fact is God makes them alive even when they are following after Satan and doing bad stuff.
They do not turn to God in repentance till after they understand the gospel.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

They were walking after the prince of the power of the air, when suddenly they were regenerated.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They just refuse to come to the heavenly party!
Unless they are regenerated, they hate God and hate Christ.
Fact is God makes them alive even when they are following after Satan and doing bad stuff.
They do not turn to God in repentance till after they understand the gospel.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

They were walking after the prince of the power of the air, when suddenly they were regenerated.

No. God does not zap people to accept Him. If that were true, then there would be no purpose in having a Judgment because it was God all along who forced people to believe or not to believe.


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[Received]

Do you think emphasizing that grace is undeserved is the wrong way to go about it?

Yes, if this means not getting to the more important and non-redundant part of grace as help by God for something you're completely unable to do yourself. Just like saying a sunset happens around 7:00 pm isn't the same thing as defining the actual sunset.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, if this means not getting to the more important and non-redundant part of grace as help by God for something you're completely unable to do yourself. Just like saying a sunset happens around 7:00 pm isn't the same thing as defining the actual sunset.

Fair enough. So when you say grace is help from God to do something we cannot do ourselves, how does that look in practice terms? What does it look like?

 

[Hammster]

No. God does not zap people to accept Him. If that were true, then there would be no purpose in having a Judgment because it was God all along who forced people to believe or not to believe.


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Do you think it's possible for God to so change a person (a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone) that they would willingly repent and believe?

 

[sdowney717]

No. God does not zap people to accept Him. If that were true, then there would be no purpose in having a Judgment because it was God all along who forced people to believe or not to believe.


....

All though are dead. All are following Satan.
All are doomed to go to hellfire, that is because the soul that sins shall die. And all have sinned.
None are forced to hell, they go there because they sin.

It is only due to mercy of God that any are born again and believe.

After Peter tells us we are elect to be saved, chosen by Him to be obedient and sprinkled with Christ's blood, he says this is according to God's mercy.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Received]

Fair enough. So when you say grace is help from God to do something we cannot do ourselves, how does that look in practice terms? What does it look like?

Specifically it goes with salvation: we can't even have faith without God helping us and revealing himself to us. But really it applies to everything, e.g., we can't breathe without the oxygen God created. Independence is an illusion to the Christian because we are by definition dependent. Independence is a purely secular idea.

 

[Hammster]

Specifically it goes with salvation: we can't even have faith without God helping us and revealing himself to us. But really it applies to everything, e.g., we can't breathe without the oxygen God created. Independence is an illusion to the Christian because we are by definition dependent. Independence is a purely secular idea.

Again you are using the phrase "helping us". So concerning faith, how does God help us? What does He do? It has to be something besides revealing Himself since Romans 1 says He's evident to everyone.

 

[Marvin Knox]

................... What I do does matter and I am not some puppet being moved around like some kind of rag doll...................

That's exactly what those darn Calvinists believe. It's nice to see that you are in agreement the Calvinists on at least this one point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All though are dead. All are following Satan.
All are doomed to go to hellfire, that is because the soul that sins shall die. And all have sinned.
None are forced to hell, they go there because they sin.

It is only due to mercy of God that any are born again and believe.

After Peter tells us we are elect to be saved, chosen by Him to be obedient and sprinkled with Christ's blood, he says this is according to God's mercy.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Your ignoring the big problem, though. Do people sin because they can't help it and the only way is if they are lucky enough to be chosen so as to escape such a horrible fate? That is what it sounds like in what you are saying. If such is the case, then how do you not see God as being immoral by doing such a thing? What purpose does the Judgment serve if God is the one who makes people to believe or not believe?


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