Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Well what about this then?
Ezekiel 11
17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.”’ 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there.

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

Consider the difference between v19 and verse 21 regarding their heart and spirits.
v19, God gives them a new spirit, a new heart of flesh, so that they walk with God.
v21, But for those who still retain the old heart which is detestable, their deeds are recompensed.

The only difference you can read, God gave to the saved group the new heart, then they walk rightly.
The other group, God does nothing, they continue with the old heart, receive a recompense for the horrendous deeds..

It's a choice that they make. Those who repent of their sins are those who are regenerated spiritually whereby God lives within them and whereby God does the good work thru them to obey His good ways. Those who continue to do evil do so as a part of their own choice. Nowhere does Ezekiel 11 say that they were forced against their will to obey.


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[Hammster]

Negative Hammster.

There is a linear order in the posts.

You actually failed to properly answer the contents of my previous post.

I cannot answer your post until you correctly treat the previous post.

If this topic is uncomfortable for you, then you can discontinue of course.

Not at all uncomfortable. But since you asked for further clarification on chapter three, I gave it. Then you ignored it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He doesn't - see my signature.

So man ultimately has the choice in turning to God? Or is it something God sees in man whereby he regenerates them?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Again, how do folks rationalize the Judgment if you believe it is God who ultimately chooses to make some believe and others to not believe?


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[sdowney717]

It's a choice that they make. Those who repent of their sins are those who are regenerated spiritually whereby God lives within them and whereby God does the good work thru them to obey His good ways. Those who continue to do evil do so as a part of their own choice. Nowhere does Ezekiel 11 say that they were forced against their will to obey.


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Your reading into the text what you believe happens, not what it says.

God does this first
19 Then I will give them one heart,
and I will put a new spirit within them,
and take the stony heart out of their flesh,
and give them a heart of flesh,

So that people do this afterwards.
20 that they may walk in My statutes
and keep My judgments and do them;
and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God.

So regeneration first, obedience second.

Your teaching obedience first, regeneration second.

 

[Hammster]

Again, how do folks rationalize the Judgment if you believe it is God who ultimately chooses to make some believe and others to not believe?


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I'm still waiting for you to address this:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-32#post-68994352

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All people do not believe, so don't think of it as God making them not believe. They just naturally do not believe. What about God's justice against sinners? Is it not moral for God to condemn sinners? Otherwise God would not be just. What if God wants to be merciful? Can we hold that against God either?

But see, you cannot judge a wolf for it in attacking humans if it was designed to be that way. There is not going to be a Judgment for animals behaving badly. Yet, you are making humans as if they were like the animals, though. The difference between us and animals is that we have a free will choice to choose either good or evil. Adam and Eve came to receive the knowledge of good and evil for a reason.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Your reading into the text what you believe happens, not what it says.

God does this first
19 Then I will give them one heart,
and I will put a new spirit within them,
and take the stony heart out of their flesh,
and give them a heart of flesh,

So that people do this afterwards.
20 that they may walk in My statutes
and keep My judgments and do them;
and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God.

So regeneration first, obedience second.

Your teaching obedience first, regeneration second.

No. You are mixing the Sanctification process with the coming to the Lord thru repentance (i.e. the Justification process). They are not the same thing. There are different stages of salvation. But even in the Sanctification process of salvation, a believer still has to cooperate with God and continue to submit to Him so that God can do the work thru them.


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[Bible Highlighter]

In Genesis 4:7 God gives Cain a choice in doing either good or bad with each having it's own unique effects.


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[sdowney717]

No. You are mixing the Sanctification process with the coming to the Lord thru repentance (i.e. the Justification process). They are not the same thing. There are different stages of salvation. But even in the Sanctification process of salvation, a believer still has to cooperate with God and continue to submit to Him so that God can do the work thru them.


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You're just repeating from your mind what you think happens.
That is the problem trying to understand scripture. You can not add to what it says and make it fit, that is called twisting the word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, God is powerless to change a persons heart (a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone) unless, with the heart of stone they repent and change?

I already answered this. I am saying that a person has to be willing to change in order for God to make them a new person. They have to have a break emotionally before God over their sin and seek to walk uprightly before God before God regenerates them spiritually. They have to want or desire a change whereby God then gives them a new heart. God does not force people against their free will to believe. It doesn't work like that. For if such were the case, then everyone would believe.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You're just repeating from your mind what you think happens.
That is the problem trying to understand scripture. You can not add to what it says and make it fit, that is called twisting the word.

I can say the same for you. But it would not make what you say is true, though. The real test is by comparing Scripture with Scripture and by making a real world example out of what you believe.


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[Hammster]

I already answered this. I am saying that a person has to be willing to change in order for God to make them a new person. They have to have a break emotionally before God over their sin and seek to walk uprightly before God before God regenerates them spiritually. They have to want or desire a change whereby God then gives them a new heart. God does not force people against their free will to believe. It doesn't work like that. For if such were the case, then everyone would believe.


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Actually, you are not answering me. You are just repeating your mantra. I'd like to see if you'll admit that someone with a heart of stone will be willing to change.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't follow Calvin. I celebrate Christmas - he believed we shouldn't. I don't believe in baptizing infants - he did. I believe in using instruments in church - he didn't. There are many things I disagree with Calvin on. Your assumption that anyone who believes the doctrines of grace follow Calvin's teaching is telling of your ignorance regarding Calvinism.

This is the trouble with labels. What many people say people believe isn't necessarily what they believe.

For instance, John Calvin didn't even believe in limited atonement.

I don't believe in limited atonement either as it is usually presented by so called Calvinists. I don't believe in the perseverance of the saints as it is often taught. I have a different view on irresistible grace and total depravity than many Calvinists.

For this reason many died in the wool 5-pointers disown me as a "true" Calvinist.

At the same time I get branded a Calvinist by the other side for believing in predestination and election. For this reason they often misstate what I believe and I have to correct them on it time and time again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He doesn't - see my signature.

Tell it to me straight. Does God ultimately choose man to believe or does man ultimately choose God by faith?

Or do you think God chooses us to be regenerated based on knowing man's free will choice in accepting Christ?


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[Hammster]

In Genesis 4:7 God gives Cain a choice in doing either good or bad with each having it's own unique effects.


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Yep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, you are not answering me. You are just repeating your mantra. I'd like to see if you'll admit that someone with a heart of stone will be willing to change.

Why does God tell the Israelites to circumcise their own hearts in Scripture?


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[Hammster]

Tell it to me straight. Does God ultimately choose man to believe or does man ultimately choose God by faith?



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Yes to both.

 

[Hammster]

Why does God tell the Israelites to circumcise their own hearts in Scripture?


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You are avoiding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yep.

Ah, so you agree that man has a choice in doing good or evil. Which means he has a choice in choosing Christ (i.e. the good) and in not choosing Christ (i.e. the evil).


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