Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

Because you actually said this:
"Belief isn't enough to save."

That's why I said what I said.


Please stop trying to deconstruct my comments. Your statement is clear; belief isn't enough to save. Yet, that's ALL Paul told the jailer about how to be saved. So you DO reject Paul's answer to the jailer, which was my point. Stop trying to deflect from the issue.


You've been refuted by Scripture. Your statement is clear about more being required to be saved than just belief. Paul refutes that notion.

Did Paul say that regeneration was required to be saved?

 

[Hammster]

Please support this assumption with clear Scripture.

I did. You might want to go back a few pages. I'm not going to to repeat something I just said a few hours ago.

 

[EmSw]

Because eternal life is given WHEN one believes, per Jesus in John 5:24. And Paul said that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And then he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, salvation in the kingdom of God is a temporary belief, just believe once and go back living in darkness and serve the devil. It doesn't matter what one does after this one-time belief; live it up like you did before, stay in your sins, keep your filthy heart, and your one-time lip service will fix it all.

When did Jesus say we would receive eternal life? Let's take a look.

Mar 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Did you notice what we receive NOW IN THIS TIME? Nothing about eternal life. And Jesus tells us when we receive eternal life; notice carefully and understand, we receive eternal life IN THE WORLD TO COME. Of course, I don't expect you to believe this. I expect some slicing and dicing of this verse to make it fit your beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I thought that any believer with even a little bit of knowledge about theology would understand the question. I see I was wrong, and I apologize that I assumed that about you.

This is just another disingenuous comment. Everyone who follows this thread knows my question was to get you to answer your own question. But instead of just providing your answer, you've chosen a very thinly disguised ad hominem.

Doing anything in the flesh is to do it apart from Christ. It would basically be anything done that doesn't glorify God. Those things done in the Spirit are those things that please and glorify God. Those can only be done by Christ working in us and through us.

So, now that I've answered your question, do we believe from the heart while in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

I specifically requested verses to back up your answer. Since none was given, it appears there are none that back up your answer.

So I'll help you out here. The Holy Spirit indwells those who believe. Gal 3:2,5 are clear about that. And you failed to provide any verse that says or indicates that one believes "in the Spirit".

The issue of being "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" deals with our 2 natures. The flesh is our natural, fallen, sin nature. The Holy Spirit regenerates our dead human spirit and indwells that part of us. The apostle John taught that we cannot sin from our regenerated nature in 1 Jn 3:9. He wasn't teaching sinless perfection.

The Calvinist view that one must be regenerated before they can believe is not supported by Scripture, as you've just demonstrated by your failure to provide any such verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did Paul say that regeneration was required to be saved?

Why are you deflecting from the discussion with irrelevant questions? I just told you from Scripture what Paul told the jailer. What part of Acts 16:31 do you not understand?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did. You might want to go back a few pages. I'm not going to to repeat something I just said a few hours ago.

Why? Too difficult to remember what you posted so short of a time ago? Or just a fondness of not answering questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, salvation in the kingdom of God is a temporary belief, just believe once and go back living in darkness and serve the devil.

No, salvation is eternal life. Which is eternal. How can that be confusing?

It doesn't matter what one does after this one-time belief; live it up like you did before, stay in your sins, keep your filthy heart, and your one-time lip service will fix it all.

Who said anything about lip service? That's nothing close to what I said or believe. Please stop twisting my words into nonsense.

When did Jesus say we would receive eternal life? Let's take a look.

Mar 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Did you notice what we receive NOW IN THIS TIME? Nothing about eternal life. And Jesus tells us when we receive eternal life; notice carefully and understand, we receive eternal life IN THE WORLD TO COME. Of course, I don't expect you to believe this. I expect some slicing and dicing of this verse to make it fit your beliefs.

Why would one try to pit Jesus against Himself? For what reason?

Maybe you've never read what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Or John 6:47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life.

His words are clear: those who believe HAVE eternal life. Not "will have it".

Maybe one should re-think what Matt 10:30 really means.

Or was Jesus confused about things?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Belief isn't enough. Even the demons believe.

But demons know that God exists.

So they are not talking about faith, but that they know. That they believe.

Also, we know what the demons final fate will be, which is in the lake of fire. Why would one equate demons with the salvation of mankind? We have salvation through Jesus Christ. Demons do not.

 

[Hammster]

Why are you deflecting from the discussion with irrelevant questions? I just told you from Scripture what Paul told the jailer. What part of Acts 16:31 do you not understand?

Regeneration is necessary, don't you think? If so, and Paul didn't say so, then you are left with a quandary.

 

[Hammster]

This is just another disingenuous comment. Everyone who follows this thread knows my question was to get you to answer your own question. But instead of just providing your answer, you've chosen a very thinly disguised ad hominem.


I specifically requested verses to back up your answer. Since none was given, it appears there are none that back up your answer.

So I'll help you out here. The Holy Spirit indwells those who believe. Gal 3:2,5 are clear about that. And you failed to provide any verse that says or indicates that one believes "in the Spirit".

The issue of being "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" deals with our 2 natures. The flesh is our natural, fallen, sin nature. The Holy Spirit regenerates our dead human spirit and indwells that part of us. The apostle John taught that we cannot sin from our regenerated nature in 1 Jn 3:9. He wasn't teaching sinless perfection.

The Calvinist view that one must be regenerated before they can believe is not supported by Scripture, as you've just demonstrated by your failure to provide any such verse.

You didn't ask for scripture. If a believer cannot please God in the flesh, how much more so for an unbeliever? So one believes in the Spirit because we know that we cannot please God in the flesh.

 

[Hammster]

But demons know that God exists.

So they are not talking about faith, but that they know. That they believe.

Also, we know what the demons final fate will be, which is in the lake of fire. Why would one equate demons with the salvation of mankind? We have salvation through Jesus Christ. Demons do not.

The point is that you cannot just say "believe". Believing something and believi in something are not the same. Our flesh, our heart of stone, may acknowledge that God exists. It may even find the idea of Christianity pleasing, much like some folks find Buddahism pleasing. But that won't save them. It God turning the heart of stone into a heart of flesh that allows us to truly believe.

 

[EmSw]

No, salvation is eternal life. Which is eternal. How can that be confusing?

Eternal life is eternal whether you have it or not. Is that confusing? It has nothing to do with you!

Who said anything about lip service? That's nothing close to what I said or believe. Please stop twisting my words into nonsense.

Believing comes from the heart, not just saying it with your lips. If one does not cleanse his heart, then any belief which comes forth is full of dead men bones.

Why would one try to pit Jesus against Himself? For what reason?

Why do you not believe Jesus' words that we receive eternal life in the world to come? Perhaps you didn't understand.

Maybe you've never read what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Or John 6:47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life.

His words are clear: those who believe HAVE eternal life. Not "will have it".

Maybe one should re-think what Matt 10:30 really means.

Or was Jesus confused about things?

Why does one thinks he believes Jesus when he can't hear and heed His words? We inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments (the very words of Jesus). If you don't believe that, then you don't believe Jesus. If you don't believe eternal life is given in the world to come, then you don't believe Jesus. Belief in Jesus is hearing, understanding, and obeying His every word. If one hears Jesus' words about inheriting eternal life by keeping the commandments, understands them, and obeys them, then it is he who believes in Jesus. Believing is not just an assent with the lips; it's obedience from the heart.

Do you believe Jesus when He says we inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The point is that you cannot just say "believe". Believing something and believi in something are not the same. Our flesh, our heart of stone, may acknowledge that God exists. It may even find the idea of Christianity pleasing, much like some folks find Buddahism pleasing. But that won't save them. It God turning the heart of stone into a heart of flesh that allows us to truly believe.

Actually, that is exactly what saves them. It is believing and reaching out to Christ in faith.

Believing in Christ is not the same thing as believing in other things, because when we beleive and come to Him in faith, HE takes the action.

That's the difference between belief in Christ in faith and our belief in any other thing. Christ DOES something with it. Not us. That is where you have it wrong.

Go back to my long post on Romans 6. The action that Jesus takes is the action that free's us from our sin. That is what Romans 6 shows. How Christ has made us 'dead to sin'. Not how we have done anything.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, that is exactly what saves them. It is believing and reaching out to Christ in faith.

Believing in Christ is not the same thing as believing in other things, because when we beleive and come to Him in faith, HE takes the action.

That's the difference between belief in Christ in faith and our belief in any other thing. Christ DOES something with it. Not us. That is where you have it wrong.

Go back to my long post on Romans 6. The action that Jesus takes is the action that free's us from our sin. That is what Romans 6 shows. How Christ has made us 'dead to sin'. Not how we have done anything.

Your post on Romans 6 didn't address this. It's talking about believers and that we cannot continue to sin just because grace abounds even more. He was dealing with the argument that some were making that we should sun more to show God's grace.

 

[Hammster]

Despite scripture to the contrary, it appears that some believe that in their sinful flesh they can please God. And no amount of scripture to the contrary will convince them otherwise. There's not much I can do with that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why are you deflecting from the discussion with irrelevant questions? I just told you from Scripture what Paul told the jailer. What part of Acts 16:31 do you not understand?"

Regeneration is necessary, don't you think?

Whatever would lead anyone to this kind of question, based on what I said? But since your deflection continues, please tell the thread what regeneration is "necessary" for. Or do you know? Maybe you are looking for answers yourself.

But I suspect you do have an answer. If so, please answer. If not, it's perfectly ok to admit it.

If so, and Paul didn't say so, then you are left with a quandary.

Unless you answer the question of what regeneration is necessary for, there is no quandary. Where did Paul include regeneration in his answer to the jailer?

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
"Why are you deflecting from the discussion with irrelevant questions? I just told you from Scripture what Paul told the jailer. What part of Acts 16:31 do you not understand?"

Whatever would lead anyone to this kind of question, based on what I said? But since your deflection continues, please tell the thread what regeneration is "necessary" for. Or do you know? Maybe you are looking for answers yourself.

But I suspect you do have an answer. If so, please answer. If not, it's perfectly ok to admit it.


Unless you answer the question of what regeneration is necessary for, there is no quandary. Where did Paul include regeneration in his answer to the jailer?

For the necessity of regeneration, read John 3. And Titus 2.

 

[FreeGrace2]

From post, #243: you said:
"All believers produce fruit. Hence, the parable."
My response:
"Please support this assumption with clear Scripture."

You didn't ask for scripture.

So, yeah, I did.

If a believer cannot please God in the flesh, how much more so for an unbeliever? So one believes in the Spirit because we know that we cannot please God in the flesh.

Nice theory, but what Scripture supports this assumption?

I gave Gal 3:2 and 5 to prove that one receives the Holy Spirit by means of faith.

Your theory is contrary to what Scripture teaches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The point is that you cannot just say "believe". Believing something and believi in something are not the same. Our flesh, our heart of stone, may acknowledge that God exists. It may even find the idea of Christianity pleasing, much like some folks find Buddahism pleasing. But that won't save them. It God turning the heart of stone into a heart of flesh that allows us to truly believe.

This seems to skirt the concept of what "saving faith" is. Please define what you think "saving faith" is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is eternal whether you have it or not. Is that confusing? It has nothing to do with you!

Why would one completely dismiss what Jesus said, which I provided? Those verses tell us WHEN one receives eternal life. Why are you dodging that?

Believing comes from the heart, not just saying it with your lips.

Of course. I never suggested otherwise.

If one does not cleanse his heart, then any belief which comes forth is full of dead men bones.

So, how does one cleanse his heart? Scripture, please.

Why do you not believe Jesus' words that we receive eternal life in the world to come? Perhaps you didn't understand.

What is clear to me is how you've ignored or dismissed Jesus' clear words in John. Please stop trying to pit Jesus' words against each other.

Why does one thinks he believes Jesus when he can't hear and heed His words?

You'll have to ask such a "one". The Bible is clear about those who "can't hear". They've closed their eyes and ears to Him. They refuse to believe, which clearly proves it's a choice.

We inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments (the very words of Jesus).

So, still pitting Jesus against Himself, huh? That's not what He said at all.

If you don't believe that, then you don't believe Jesus.

Because of the verses I gave, it's obvious who isn't believing what Jesus said.

If you don't believe eternal life is given in the world to come, then you don't believe Jesus.

Of course all who have believed will have eternal life in eternity, which you call "the world to come". But Jesus was very clear about HAVING eternal life WHEN one believes. Which it seems you've rejected outright.

Belief in Jesus is hearing, understanding, and obeying His every word.

No, it's fully trusting in what He did you you.

If one hears Jesus' words about inheriting eternal life by keeping the commandments, understands them, and obeys them, then it is he who believes in Jesus. Believing is not just an assent with the lips; it's obedience from the heart.

Do you believe Jesus when He says we inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments?

Because Jesus SAID one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, I understand what He meant about "inheriting eternal life" by keeping commandments.

Do you believe Jesius when He said one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes? That's the real issue.