Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

It appears to me, that you will deliberately corrupt all the scriptures to support your crazy views. Just like Peter said.

Needs to change his title to 'Agent of Men', for that is where his hope is.

 

[sdowney717]

Needs to change his title to 'Agent of Men', for that is where his hope is.

Yes, I see what you mean that moniker he has.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit does not mean a person cannot break that seal. Seals mentioned in the Bible have been broken.

This is a false defense for conditional security. The Bible TELLS us what the sealing is FOR: the day of redemption. That's the purpose FOR the sealing. The DAY of redemption.

And keep in mind that there are no verses that speak of this seal being broken BEFORE the DAY of redemption.

Especially by any "man".

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, the being who looked like Samuel in the vision said this to Saul,

"Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?" (1 Samuel 28:16).

Where did you get the idea that what spoke to Saul was simply a "being who looked like Samuel"? The Bible very directly refers to him as Samuel. You have added a false idea to the Scripture.

Here we see it is very clear that the spirit who appeared as Samuel (Whether it was a genuine vision or demonic one), had said to Saul that God had departed from him and said he has become his enemy.

So now, it may have even been a demonic being. Wowsers. The Bible calls him Samuel. 1 Sam 28:12 - When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceivedme? For you are Saul.”

Your comments demonstrate that you don't believe the Bible.

Then, v.14 - He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

More confirmation that what Saul saw WAS Samuel.

Second, the being that appeared as Samuel said he would be with him. This is talking about death because in verse 20, Saul was not comforted in hearing these words but he was very afraid.

Would anyone being comforted in hearing about dying the next day? Samuel was specific in what he told Saul in v.19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

Two things are clear from v.19:
1. Saul was discomforted because Israel would be given over to the hands of the Philistines
2. Saul would die and be with Samuel

If Samuel only meant that Saul would die the next day, he used mighty odd phraseology to communicate that.

He told Saul that Saul would be with him. That's personal. Saul would be where Samuel would be the next day; in Paradise.

I've given clear Scripture that refutes your views and your response is to deny what the Scriptures say.

First you want to change Scripture to mean "some being, possibly demonic even". Then you want to change what Samuel meant.

Also, other translations make it clear that the spirit that appeared as Samuel said that he would be with him in death, too.

"Moreover, the Lord will also put Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me [among the dead]." (1 Samuel 28:16) (Amplified Bible).

Big deal. Notice the brackets. That means it's not in the original. And the AB is only a paraphrased translation anyway, and not regarded by scholars.

"Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead." (1 Sameuel 18:16) (Contempory English Version).

Sounds like another paraphrased version.

Third, nowhere does the Bible ever say Saul was saved. On the contrary, it indicates that he was not saved....

Since you've shown no regard for what the Scriptures actually SAY, I don't suppose this passage will have any effect either, but here goes:
1 Sam 10:1-7
1 Then Samuel took the flask of oil, poured it on his head, kissed him and said, “Has not the LORD anointed you a ruler over His inheritance?
2 “When you go from me today, then you will find two men close to Rachel’s tomb in the territory of Benjamin at Zelzah;and they will say to you, ‘The donkeys which you went to look for have been found. Now behold, your father has ceased to be concerned about the donkeys and is anxious for you, saying, “What shall I do about my son?’”
3“Then you will go on further from there, and you will come as far as the oak of Tabor, and there three men going up to God at Bethel will meet you, one carrying three young goats, another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a jug of wine;
4 and they will greet you and give you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from their hand.
5 “Afterward you will come to the hill of God where the Philistine garrison is; and it shall be as soon as you have come there to the city, that you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and a lyre before them, and they will be prophesying.
6 “Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man.
7 “It shall be when these signs come to you, do for yourself what the occasion requires, for God is with you.

That may sound like an unbeliever to some, but not to me. And I quoted this passage, not for your benefit, but for any who are following this to prove that Saul was saved. The FACT that Scripture SAYS that he would be "changed into another man" is a reference to being regenerated, esp given the FACT that the Spirit of the LORD will come upon him.

These FACTS are undeniable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Psalm 69:28 tells us that names can be blotted out of the book of life....

Let's look at that Psalm.

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous."

First, this is David's REQUEST about his adversaries, not a statement about God's plan.

Second, scholars say that every human in history has his/her name in the book of life. Those who die without having believed in Christ are blotted out of that book.

So, either way, the verse sure doesn't support loss of salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason teaches this
As for God destroying believers: Well, the Scriptures say that Christ will send forth his angels to remove all who do sin or iniquity within his Kingdom so as to be cast into the furnace of fire (Which would obviously be so as to destroy them).

Revelation 11:15 [ Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed ] Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So yes of course God will cast all things that offend Him out of His kingdom, Jason that is no evidence people lose their salvation.
What a severe twisting of Christ's own words, not shocking what you believe though considering all your postings.

The wheat and tares parable prove that the elect are those whom the Lord planted, the sons of the kingdom are saved, while the devil plants the tares (weeds) in among those God plants (wheat) and tares are the ones who offended God's holy angels right away and will be destroyed in the fire. Yet you teach the sons of the kingdom that God planted turn into the tares!! Jason your just plain crazy doctrines are foolishness.

You do realize Jason, that God had put his seal on His plants, the wheat, sons of the kingdom, so the angels who see into the spiritual realm could tell who was who immediately and wanted to pluck out only the tares planted by Satan.
Tares and wheat look similar, but to a trained observer (God's angels) they can tell them apart. They are demonstrably different by their budding fruits heads.
But the sons of the kingdom and the tares God says both must grow together to be split apart at the judgement day, lest the wheat be damaged.
God's only concern is to protect His wheat crop that will be put into His barn.

It appears to me, that you will deliberately corrupt all the scriptures to support your crazy views. Just like Peter said.

First, whether you realize it or not, it disrespectful for a person to say a person's name when they are being condescending towards them or if they are trying to insult them in what they believe. Second, stick to the Scriptures alone and do not attack me as a person. You said, I am deliberately corrupting the Scriptures and have crazy views (Which I do not believe to be true). This is inappropriate, unloving (as being a believer in Christ) and unprofessional. Read Matthew 5:11-12, Matthew 15:11, Colossians 4:6.

Third, as for Revelation 11:15: Well, Matthew 13:41-42 does not say it is specifically talking about nations. It says Christ will have his angels remove ALL THINGS that offend. This is contrasted with the righteous who will shine forth as the sun (verse 43 - Matthew 13:43). The Scriptures say, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). Also, if God is going to reclaim all nations as the text says and then destroy them that destroyed the Earth (and not those who fear God), it is logical to assume that God is going to destroy anyone who does not fear God and they lived as they pleased (Regardless whether they claim to be a believer or not). How so?

Well, Matthew 7:21-23 connects with Matthew 13:41-42. For Jesus says,

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23).

Here we see certain believers claiming to be of Christ's Kingdom and had even said they did many wonderful things in his name. However, Christ told them to depart from him because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin or sinful behavior - See Psalm 51:2). Jesus said that not everyone who says to Him that He is Lord, Lord to them will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (which is a believer). Christ says he that DOES the WILL of the Father will enter into the Kingdom. This means, a believer has to live righteously.

Psalm 84:11 says, "For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."

For blessed are the pure in heart - for they shall see God (Matthew 5:8).

For Jesus said,

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceedthe righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).

As for the parable of the wheat and the tares to prove your case that believers cannot fall away: Well, not every parable speaks of falling away. Every parable has it's own unique intended truth or meaning behind it. So this does not prove that you are right in any way, my friend. The point of the wheat and the tares does prove that there are believers who are false, though. But it is the Parable of the Sower that tells us that a believer who receives the seed of the Word in their heart who can fall away (Either due to being ashamed at being persecuted or in chasing after the riches or cares of this life).

As for recognizing the tares: Jesus said in Matthew 7 that we can know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit (i.e. deeds). 1 John 3:8 says, he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 2:29 says, he that does righteousness is born of him.


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[ToBeLoved]

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[Bible Highlighter]

Where did you get the idea that what spoke to Saul was simply a "being who looked like Samuel"? The Bible very directly refers to him as Samuel. You have added a false idea to the Scripture.


So now, it may have even been a demonic being. Wowsers. The Bible calls him Samuel. 1 Sam 28:12 - When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceivedme? For you are Saul.”

Your comments demonstrate that you don't believe the Bible.

Then, v.14 - He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

More confirmation that what Saul saw WAS Samuel.


Would anyone being comforted in hearing about dying the next day? Samuel was specific in what he told Saul in v.19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

Two things are clear from v.19:
1. Saul was discomforted because Israel would be given over to the hands of the Philistines
2. Saul would die and be with Samuel

If Samuel only meant that Saul would die the next day, he used mighty odd phraseology to communicate that.

He told Saul that Saul would be with him. That's personal. Saul would be where Samuel would be the next day; in Paradise.

I've given clear Scripture that refutes your views and your response is to deny what the Scriptures say.

First you want to change Scripture to mean "some being, possibly demonic even". Then you want to change what Samuel meant.


Big deal. Notice the brackets. That means it's not in the original. And the AB is only a paraphrased translation anyway, and not regarded by scholars.


Sounds like another paraphrased version.


Since you've shown no regard for what the Scriptures actually SAY, I don't suppose this passage will have any effect either, but here goes:
1 Sam 10:1-7
1 Then Samuel took the flask of oil, poured it on his head, kissed him and said, “Has not the LORD anointed you a ruler over His inheritance?
2 “When you go from me today, then you will find two men close to Rachel’s tomb in the territory of Benjamin at Zelzah;and they will say to you, ‘The donkeys which you went to look for have been found. Now behold, your father has ceased to be concerned about the donkeys and is anxious for you, saying, “What shall I do about my son?’”
3“Then you will go on further from there, and you will come as far as the oak of Tabor, and there three men going up to God at Bethel will meet you, one carrying three young goats, another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a jug of wine;
4 and they will greet you and give you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from their hand.
5 “Afterward you will come to the hill of God where the Philistine garrison is; and it shall be as soon as you have come there to the city, that you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and a lyre before them, and they will be prophesying.
6 “Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man.
7 “It shall be when these signs come to you, do for yourself what the occasion requires, for God is with you.

That may sound like an unbeliever to some, but not to me. And I quoted this passage, not for your benefit, but for any who are following this to prove that Saul was saved. The FACT that Scripture SAYS that he would be "changed into another man" is a reference to being regenerated, esp given the FACT that the Spirit of the LORD will come upon him.

These FACTS are undeniable.

Saul was once in favor with God but then Saul fell away from the Lord and died in his sins (unsaved). The being that talked with Saul thru the witch of Endor was a demon impersonating the prophet Samuel and it was not actually Samuel. How so?

#1. Necromancy or the consulting of mediums is clearly condemned by the Lord our God in the Holy Scriptures (Deuteronomy 18:11)(Isaiah 8:19). Think for a moment. If the Lord did not answer or communicate to Saul in the usual normal good ways of God (i.e. official channels), why would He permit Samuel to do so by a means of the dark arts (Which is forbidden in Scripture)? For if a believer were to hold to your viewpoint on this issue, this would give a believer a loophole or the okay that they can consult mediums in order to contact God if their prayers are not being answered (Which is wrong). Therefore, it is clear that this was not the Lord talking thru Samuel from the dead, but it was a devil impersonating Samuel.

#2. In the story of Lazarus and the Richman: Abraham says that it is a futile effort for the dead to warn the living about hell or what could befall them (Luke 16:27-31). Abraham points out that they have Moses and the Prophets. Why? Because God wants us to walk by faith. He wants us to trust the warnings by God's people or His Word and not in some consultation with a familar spirit. Also, if Saul was on his way to Paradise, then Samuel would have said something to comfort him. But the exact opposite emotion had befallen Saul by Samuel's message. He had great fear over what he heard. Did this lead Saul to repent of his sins? No. It led to him committing suicide (Which is a sin that you cannot repent of).

#3. Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death (1 Samuel 15:35). Yes, Samuel seen Saul prophecy before him (1 Samuel 19:24). But Saul was seeking to find David and Samuel. Samuel was not seeking to see Saul. Samuel did not set out to see Saul until the actual day of his death. This means that Samuel could not have visited Saul by way of a some vision that supports witchcraft or the dark arts. For the being claiming to be Samuel said, "...to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me." Did you catch that? This text is saying that Samuel would have set out to see Saul the day before his death. But that does not jive with 1 Samuel 15:35 that says Samuel did not see Saul until the day of his death. Samuel was already dead when Saul died. So Samuel could only set out to see Saul at his death in the after-life.

#4. God had COMPLETELY rejected Saul and He had declined to communicate with him in any way. Again, stop and think for a moment. Why on Earth would the Lord stop answering Saul and yet give credence to believers consulting mediums by answering him by means of the dark arts? It just doesn't make sense.

#5. Saul was later condemned for consulting one who had a familar spirit (1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Why would God endorse something that He later condemned? It just doesn't add up. In fact, read 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 very closely. It says Saul consulted one who had a familar spirit and by the fact that he enquired of it (i.e. the familar spirit and NOT Samuel). This is irrefutal proof. Read the text slowly and with an open mind by way of prayer.

#6. Saul did not actually SEE Samuel. The witch of Endor merely told Saul that she had seen an "old man" and that he was "covered with a mantle (cloak or robe)" From this information given to Saul, he then believed it was Samuel. A discussion then took place between Saul and what he believed to be as the prophet Samuel. For he was desperate to hear anything at this point. However, this was clearly not Samuel, though. For one, this being claiming to be Samuel did not know why Saul had summoned him. Two, the witch had seen gods ascending and descending. In the book of Job, "...the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." (Job 1:7). Three, the witch was allowing it's familar spirit to speak thru her (Again see 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). In fact, we see many cases of demons speaking thru their hosts in the rest of Scripture (Matthew 8:29-31)(Mark 1:23-24) (Mark 9:26) (Luke 4:33-34) (Acts 16:16-18).

Now, did Saul have God's grace or mercy in the end? Not according to Scripture.

2 Samuel 7:12-16
12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."


Side Note:

Does the text claiming that this is Samuel mean it is Samuel? No. Not at all. For one, the Bible tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Two, Anti-Trinitarians make the false claim that Jesus is not God by pointing to passages that say Jesus is the Son of Man, etc. But one needs to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a clear picture that Jesus is in fact God and that the Trinity is true. It is no different with understanding on what being was actually talking with Saul involving the witch of Endor, too. All the evidence in Scripture needs to be looked at objectively.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Let's look at that Psalm.

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous."

First, this is David's REQUEST about his adversaries, not a statement about God's plan.

Second, scholars say that every human in history has his/her name in the book of life. Those who die without having believed in Christ are blotted out of that book.

So, either way, the verse sure doesn't support loss of salvation.

No, it says do not let them be recorded among the righteous. Meaning, only the righteous can be in such a book. Oh, and yes; Even people who were of a large group of people that was at war with God's people can come to the Lord. Rahab is just one example.


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[Bible Highlighter]

This is a false defense for conditional security. The Bible TELLS us what the sealing is FOR: the day of redemption. That's the purpose FOR the sealing. The DAY of redemption.

And keep in mind that there are no verses that speak of this seal being broken BEFORE the DAY of redemption.

Especially by any "man".

But again, the Bible talks about how seals can be broken elsewhere. So this does not prove your case. Nowhere does the verse say that it is an unbreakable seal. That is something you are adding to the text, my friend. The Bible is very clear on the topic of believers falling away.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Needs to change his title to 'Agent of Men', for that is where his hope is.

Thank you for the insult. I will rejoice in God my Savior.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Suicide is a sin that leads to hell.

#1. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17).

#2. John says, no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Suicide is self murder.

#3. Scripture says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." (1 John 1:9). How can you confess of your sins if you are dead? Does not 1 John 1:9 say we are forgiven of sin if we confess our sin? In fact, Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So we can conclude that Saul was not saved because he committed suicide and stayed dead.


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[GillDouglas]

Thank you for the insult. I will rejoice in God my Savior.
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No insult, just the truth. You consistently advocate for man's ability to save himself and to keep himself saved. You unnecessarily try to add to an already perfect sacrifice and on top of that, preach that the hope of keeping salvation lies in the hands of fallible men. You rarely consider the sovereignty of God when you discuss the saved and the damned. The change from spiritually dead to spiritually alive is a permanent change brought about by the Holy Spirit. It cannot be earned, and it cannot be undone.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Suicide is a sin that leads to hell.

#1. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17).

#2. John says, no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Suicide is self murder.

#3. Scripture says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." (1 John 1:9). How can you confess of your sins if you are dead? Does not 1 John 1:9 say we are forgiven of sin if we confess our sin? In fact, Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So we can conclude that Saul was not saved because he committed suicide and stayed dead.


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I'm not sure where you get the notion that someone becomes supposedly uncleansed. In 1 John, the tense there is present continuous; those who walk in faith are continuously cleansed.

 

[sdowney717]

No insult, just the truth. You consistently advocate for man's ability to save himself and to keep himself saved. You unnecessarily try to add to an already perfect sacrifice and on top of that, preach that the hope of keeping salvation lies in the hands of fallible men. You rarely consider the sovereignty of God when you discuss the saved and the damned. The change from spiritually dead to spiritually alive is a permanent change. It cannot be earned, and it cannot be undone.

I showed him verses where it proves God and Christ sanctify us and not the other way round.
To sanctify means to make holy to God, we are justified by His blood.

I'm not sure where you get the notion that someone becomes supposedly uncleansed. In 1 John, the tense there is present continuous; those who walk in faith are continuously cleansed.

Suicide is not trusting Christ for your life. Suicide is self murder, those who suicide we can hope God is merciful, but really they have not overcome this life and only those who believe and are born of God do overcome in life. My view is suicides are not born of God else they would have been overcomers of the world, but a suicide the world has overcome them. in that sense they are unbelieving, without hope in God to save them from the world, their situation, they are self centered not Christ centered.

1 John 5 says it this way

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And then Revelations 21
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Those who thirst God invites, and they thirst since He is at work within them to draw-drag them to Himself as John 6 says.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I showed him verses where it proves God and Christ sanctify us and not the other way round.
To sanctify means to make holy to God, we are justified by His blood.


Suicide is not trusting Christ for your life. Suicide is self murder, those who suicide we can hope God is merciful, but really they have not overcome this life and only those who believe and are born of God do overcome in life. My view is suicides are not born of God else they would have been overcomers of the world, but a suicide the world has overcome them. in that sense they are unbelieving, without hope in God to save them from the world, their situation, they are self centered not Christ centered.

1 John 5 says it this way

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And then Revelations 21
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Those who thirst God invites, and they thirst since He is at work within them to draw-drag them to Himself as John 6 says.

What you say seems to make sense. What I said I guess was along similar lines.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But again, the Bible talks about how seals can be broken elsewhere. So this does not prove your case. Nowhere does the verse say that it is an unbreakable seal. That is something you are adding to the text, my friend. The Bible is very clear on the topic of believers falling away.


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But seals are not broken on God's side.

So to think that God would break a seal is incorrect

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But seals are not broken on God's side.

So to think that God would break a seal is incorrect

Actually, God breaks seals in Revelation. God also broke the seal on the stone and rolled it away at Christ's tomb. But God does not need to first break a seal in order to break a contract or covenant He has made with man, though. Circumcision was a seal of one's faith.

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith" (Romans 4:11).

And if one were to break the Law (in the Old Covenant), one's circumcision was made as uncircumcision.

"but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision." (Romans 2:25).

In other words, this would be man breaking of a seal appointed by God within a covenant he has made with him.

And nothing has changed in the New Covenant in regards to one sinning, too. For...

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? " (Hebrews 10:28-29).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).


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[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not sure where you get the notion that someone becomes supposedly uncleansed. In 1 John, the tense there is present continuous; those who walk in faith are continuously cleansed.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It means exactly what it says. You confess sin and you can then be forgiven of sin. It's not a complicated verse. It means exactly what it says. Forgiveness of sin is tied to one's salvation. For how can it not be?


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[Bible Highlighter]

I showed him verses where it proves God and Christ sanctify us and not the other way round.
To sanctify means to make holy to God, we are justified by His blood.

It's more like a cooperation. We have to first submit to God of our own free will in order for the Lord to work in us His sanctification process. God does not force sanctification on anyone. If that was the case, then why not perfectly sanctify everyone? Why don't we see a ton of people like Paul running around?

But how do you apply the blood to your life according to Scripture? The Bible says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light in order for the blood to cleanse us from all sin (See 1 John 1:7).

Suicide is not trusting Christ for your life. Suicide is self murder, those who suicide we can hope God is merciful, but really they have not overcome this life and only those who believe and are born of God do overcome in life. My view is suicides are not born of God else they would have been overcomers of the world, but a suicide the world has overcome them. in that sense they are unbelieving, without hope in God to save them from the world, their situation, they are self centered not Christ centered.

1 John 5 says it this way

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And then Revelations 21
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Those who thirst God invites, and they thirst since He is at work within them to draw-drag them to Himself as John 6 says.

Yes, those who commit suicide are committing a sin that they cannot confess or repent of. For we are to confess our sin so as to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). But if one is dead, they cannot confess of their sin. It would be too late to do so.



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